So, how do they make it? Lots of two income families
in Turkey? And these people are employed...ain't the
wages system grand?
Mike B)
--- Sabri Oncu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kamu-Sen recalled that the lowest monthly civil
servant wage stood at TL
570 million at present when the hunger line
I can see why Pakistan would do it. That nation is a virtual hostage.
What does Turkey get?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
speaking of Pakistan, the recent Congressional report on 911 left out the many pages
on the Saudi contribution, but what about the Pakistani dimension there? the Pakistani
intelligence services were allegedly allied with the Taliban; were they allied with al
Qaeda?
Michael:
I can see why Pakistan would do it. That nation is a
virtual hostage. What does Turkey get?
I think a better question is what sections of Turkey would get something
from it. At least two groups would gain some, at least, in the short
run:
1) AKP, the governing Islamic Christian
|| -Original Message-
|| From: Michael Perelman
||
||
|| My knowledge of Turkey is very limited. Right now, my main
|| concern is the
|| extent to which Turkey aids American imperialism. I am also
|| distraught by
|| the United States support for the repression of the Kurds.
||
|| I
Michael Perelman wrote:
I think that the detailed debates about the intricacies of Turkish
politics might be far afield of the focus of this list right now.
I.e., one of the parties to this debate is volatile, so let's move on
to something else?
Doug
It's a pretty important question, IMO. I have no
idea who is right. I'd like to know more. The
challenge is for partisans of either side to provide
third-party corroboration for their claims.
Vituperation is not going to persuade anyone here.
We understand LP's inclination to support
|| -Original Message-
|| From: Max B. Sawicky
|| Deciding who is and is not a 'nation' is a dicey business
|| for an outsider. Some nations are defined by the oppression
|| they suffer at the hands of others. The Palestinians, for
|| instance. Or the black race. That doesn't
Hakki:
Are you aware that Barzani wants to occupy a
city that has been demographically Turkoman
for 4 centuries and probably still is
despite Kurdish and Iraqi ethnic cleansing?
This is where you screw up Hakki.
Late Mehmet Abi, the doorman of our apartment building back in
those good old
This is supposed to be an argument? Everybody has Kurdish friends. I was
married to a wonderful lady who was half Kurdish. I worked for a Kurd, and
it was very inspiring. As a buck private, I had Kurdish sergeants who sat
around in the mess playing a saz and singing Kurdish songs who called us
Hakki:
I'd appreciate if Sabri and others would not
resort to provocative language when they can't
come up with arguments.
You know that I don't argue with you. Arguing with you is
completely meaningless. It is like talking to the walls. There is
no difference between the two actions. In
Congratulations on the courage and perseverance of those inside and outside
the Turkish parliament.
This is real internationalism!
Chris Burford
London
Hey, I think if Turkey supports the US in the ME, they'd be fools not to
ask for every cent they can get. Works for Israel anyway.
Joanna
At 09:24 AM 02/26/2003 -0800, you wrote:
http://istanbul.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/342.php
Joanna:
Hey, I think if Turkey supports the US in the ME, they'd
be fools not to ask for every cent they can get. Works for
Israel anyway.
It is not Turkey who will be supporting the US in the ME. It is
the rulers of Turkey who will do that. 94% percent of the
population is against it. We
It will be a good step forward for the establishment of democratic
processes and institutions in Turkey. It seems to me there is a
possibility for that, albeit a slim one. Today even the deputy prime
minister commented on this possibility by saying that the rejection of
the government's
Ian wrote:
and if the parliament votes no? Sabri, anyone else?
Sorry Ian, just saw this. Busy with empirical IO and the contract
theory in these days. I read Ahmet's response and agree with him.
The chances are slim. But both Ahmet and I live in the US. Is
there anyone out there who lives in
On Thursday, February 20, 2003 at 14:05:20 (-0600) k hanly writes:
...
The Turkish move was intended to ease a crisis in relations between the two
NATO allies. ...
Right, Turkey and the US are allies, not master and sometime unwilling
servant.
Bill
Michael:
Almost $300,000 per soldier.
In 1953, when the US Secretary of State Dalles claimed that
Turkey supplied the cheapest soldiers to NATO, for 23 cents each,
Nazim wrote a poem entitled:
A soldier for 23 cents
It starts like this:
Mister Dalles,
It is not appropriate to hide it from
So what was Turkey's price? Debt forgiveness? Or just another IMF program?
Doug
So what was Turkey's price? Debt forgiveness?
Or just another IMF program?
Doug
Who knows? But I don't think the reason behind this is money.
They are doing it out of fear.
Sabri
So what was Turkey's price? Debt forgiveness?
Or just another IMF program?
Doug
Hey!
Just read it in an article by Korkut Boratav, a member of the
Independent Social Scientists- Economists group Ahmet Tonak
mentioned a while ago. That is, he is one of us.
Quoting from the corporate media,
Almost $300,000 per soldier.
On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 09:47:12PM -0800, Sabri Oncu wrote:
$14,000,000,000 in return for the passage of 50,000 US troops
from Turkey.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL
Michael:
So Turkey is expected to go to war against the
wishes of its people and then screw them with an
IMF program. Sabri, Lou, can they get away with
such a policy?
Sorry. I was busy with other stuff so just saw this.
No way! We are not gonna let it happen.
Take a look at the web site
In conclusion, it is observed that the 2000/2001 crisis administration
in Turkey primarily works as a debt-management program. In this sense,
it is understood that the main purpose of the IMF-led salvation packages
that are hailed as big successes in the international media is actually
an
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Louis Proyect wrote:
---
We observe that what lies behind the colourful jargon
of effective and
transparent government, good governance, and
credibility is a set
of structural transformations to ultimately satisfy the
needs and
demands of the foreign
Title: RE: [PEN-L:34167] Re: Re: Re: Turkey, again...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the
IMF cannot be considered to be a development
institution of any kind, not even on the most
charitable interpretation of its work.
has the IMF -- as opposed to the WB -- _ever_ been considered
Title: RE: [PEN-L:34167] Re: Re: Re: Turkey, again...
My statement
was too weak. The IMF is not simply a collection agency. Like its masters at the
US Treasury, it's also a highly-ideological crusader for extending the power of
the financial interests. Like the crusaders of old, it has
Devine, James wrote:
My statement was too weak. The IMF is not simply a collection
agency. Like its masters at the US Treasury, it's also a
highly-ideological crusader for extending the power of the financial
interests. Like the crusaders of old, it has the power to burn
Constantinople.
So Turkey is expected to go to war against the wishes of its people and
then screw them with an IMF program. Sabri, Lou, can they get away with
such a policy?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Original Message:
-
From: Sabri Oncu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:25:21 -0800
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:34048] Re: Turkey
More than that. I read somewhere a while ago that Turkey has the
third largest military on earth, although I don't know which
Let the EU and NATO deal with their own southern flank defense problems.
After all,
not only is most of Turkey not in Europe, none of it is even remotely
near the North Atlantic Ocean.
God-damned right. The first thing Turkey should do is cut it's military
budget by 50 percent and reallocate
Louis:
God-damned right. The first thing Turkey should do
is cut it's military budget by 50 percent and reallocate
the money for desperately needed social spending. I was
surprised to read somewhere today that Turkey has the
second largest military in NATO next to the USA.
Unbelievable.
- Original Message -
From: Sabri Oncu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Louis:
God-damned right. The first thing Turkey should do
is cut it's military budget by 50 percent and reallocate
the money for desperately needed social spending. I was
surprised to read somewhere today that Turkey
washingtonpost.com
Turkey, U.S. Near Accord on Deployment
Anti-War Sentiment Likely to Limit Number of Ground Troops to 15,000
By Karl Vick
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 17, 2003; Page A15
ANKARA, Turkey, Jan. 16 -- Negotiations between Turkish and U.S.
officials over placing
I think that learning about Turkey and the Turkish situation is
important, but we also have people here from many other parts of the
world. I wish that our representatives in Argentina, Mexico, Korea,
and Japan, for example, would let us know more about the economic and
political conditions
It was not criticism of the Turks, but of the others who don't emulate
them. I cannot tell because some people use hotmail or yahoo addresses
even though they are elsewhere.
On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 02:11:58PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think that learning about Turkey and the Turkish
I should have added that the people who participate actively are certainly
predominately doing so from the Anglo Saxon world.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Article Ian sent:
US hawk wants Turkey in EU
Writing in the Turkish Daily Cumhuriyet today Mustafa Balbay
claims that, according to his sources, US hawks want Turkey in
Iraq too. He reports that the US asked Turkey to be the logistic
base of the attack on Iraq and plans to station 250,000
My God, the US papers give more space to Turkish antiwar demos. than the
bigger ones here.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sabri Oncu wrote:
The official unemployment is around 11% as far as I know. It is
based on a work force of roughly 25 million and which means that
officialy the rest of the nation are not actively seeking work.
So, officially we have about 2.8 or so million unemployed in a
population of 68
Mostly in the informal sector, which is huge, and agriculture. Regarding
the informal sector we all know that there are some many measurement related
problems. However, one of my former students from Middle East Technical
University is currently writing his thesis on this topic at UMass and I
Ahmet wrote:
I would never take the figures that Sabri used, i.e.
11% unemployment rate or the labor force, seriously.
They are literally harmful!
We are in complete agreement. My rule of thumb when it comes to
official Turkish numbers is to use a huge fudge factor. In the
case of
Title: RE: [PEN-L:31755] Re: Re: Re: Turkey-Iraq
On the other hand, if Turkey has a weak unemployment insurance system (and a weak welfare state in general), it's extremely hard for anyone to survive while being unemployed. So they are driven to the informal sector or agriculture to survive
Jim wrote:
how's my font?
Your font is beautiful.
Sabri
Unemployment, in a population of 68 million, is well
over 10%, and inflation is running at 35%.
The official unemployment is around 11% as far as I know. It is
based on a work force of roughly 25 million and which means that
officialy the rest of the nation are not actively seeking work.
So,
I said:
DEHAP is a very heterogeneous formation not only
of the above parties but also of many small
groups/parties that encompass postmarxists,
postmodernists, Stalinists (a term I try to use
with care), Trotskysts, what have you. There are
even some free-market types in this formation.
I
Good to know, is it not?
Sabri
++
General Staff: 12,000 Soldiers Entered Northern Iraq Are Totally
Wrong
ANKARA - General Staff said on Saturday that news reports saying
that 12,000 soldiers entered Northern Iraq were totally wrong,
stressing that the news reports failed to reflect
- Original Message -
From: Sabri Oncu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Turkey warns of action if Kurds form state
By David Gardner and Quentin Peel in London
FT.com site; Sep 24, 2002
Turkey will not stand by if a Kurdish state emerges in the north
of Iraq as a result of US or international
This does appear to corroborate the view of JS as posted earlier at:.
ALLIANCE 49: TURKISH EXPANSIONISM USA-LED ANTI- IRAQI WAR.
It should be of interest.
http://www22.brinkster.com/harikumar/AllianceIssues/TurkishExpansionismUSAgress
Okay. I have an article which outlines my approach to teaching in all my
courses (though I am sorry to say it is mostly micro):
Robert Scott Gassler, The Theory of Political and Social Economics: Beyond
the Neoclassical Perspective, Journal of Interdisciplinary Economics, Vol.
9, No.2, 1998,
I appreciate the reports that we get from people with expertise outside of
the US. I wish that some of you lurkers would step in.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Michael writes:
With Turkey qualify as too big to fail within the
context of the war on terrorism?
Michael,
If I am not wrong, this is a response to my statement about the
nearing collapse of Turkey. Who knows maybe I am overly
pessimistic but I don't see any other way out and think that the
Sabri,
Here in Mexico we also said, a few years back, we still have a few state
enterprises to sell, and there came the infamous Tequila effect. We were
also too big to fail.
Cheers,
ignacio
t 03:47 p.m. 08/04/02 -0700, you wrote:
Michael writes:
With Turkey qualify as too big to fail
With Turkey qualify as too big to fail within the context of the war on
terrorism?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For others reference, in addition to Hurriyet, Cumhuriyet all other
Turkish newspapers online, http://www.turkishdailynews.com offers a diverse
view for those who do not read the language.
-Original Message-
From: Sabri Oncu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 28,
The reason why I am writing this is that back home, we, the left (not only
the
socialists but also the social democrats, excluding third-wayers, and even
the
tiny groups anarchists, ecologists and the like), are being challenged by the
counter party to offer an alternative in these days.
Sabri, the people demonstrating in the streets are not really interested in
a discussion about the feasibilty of socialism versus capitalism, I would
surmise. The single event that seems to have energized the recent PROTESTS
was
a florist hurling an empty cash register at Ecevit.
Louis Proyect
I agree with Sabri. My own interest in models of socialism is due to the the
fact that in my own twenty years of organizing, whenever I engage with
ordinary people in a way where my socialism is more than a quaint fact about
me, a religious quirk to be tolerated in a useful (hopefully)
I agree with Sabri. My own interest in models of socialism is due to the the
fact that in my own twenty years of organizing, whenever I engage with
ordinary people in a way where my socialism is more than a quaint fact about
me, a religious quirk to be tolerated in a useful (hopefully)
At 02:38 11/12/00 -0800, Colin wrote:
Thanks for comments
I don't know what Lenin had in mind -- these were typically colonial
institutions, but might be a quick expedient before something else could
be set up. Curiously, J.M. Keynes wrote a memo in 1918, while he was at
the British Treasury,
It is not clear to me that a currency board inevitably involves fixed
exchange rates which cannot be devalued.
By definition, it does. You peg your currency to a stronger one,
abandon any exchange controls, and adopt the rule that your monetary
base will never exceed your central bank's
At 12:59 08/12/00 -0500, Louis Proyect forwarded:
NY Times, December 8, 2000
Floyd Norris: With Argentina's Peso Overvalued, It Can't Compete
By FLOYD NORRIS
Significant article which I also spotted in the International Herald Tribune.
I think it would help in forwarding articles if people
Chris Burford:
The overt agenda however is why the hell is the IMF once again "bailing
out" a major intermediate economy in such a mucky fashion? Why not let them
rot in the name of freedom?
From Robin Hahnel, "Capitalist Globalism in Crisis, Part III: Understanding
the IMF"
But when the IMF
At 09:01 10/12/00 -0500, Louis Proyect quoted:
From Robin Hahnel, "Capitalist Globalism in Crisis, Part III: Understanding
the IMF"
snip
So IMF bailouts are not bailouts of debtor countries and their economies at
all. Thats just a popular misconception that some find convenient to let
pass
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