Re: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-08-01 Thread JKSCHW
Justin. not Jason. And I am certainly gratified that I "mostly" understood Michael's point. --jks In a message dated Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:18:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I should have been more clear. The Tragedy of the Commons suggests that

RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-31 Thread Adam . Stokes
the TOTC, thus the debate about individual transferable quotas etc. etc. oh yeahhello list. Adam Stokes -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, 31 July 2000 15:35 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:26] Re: Re: Re: Re: Chinese desertification

Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-31 Thread Michael Perelman
I should have been more clear. The Tragedy of the Commons suggests that environmental destruction comes from the lack of property rights. There is a group in Montana that suggests that all environmental problems can be solved by giving property rights to private owners. Supposedly, if I owned

Re: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-31 Thread Louis Proyect
My point, which Jason mostly understood, many pre-market societies [before markets became dominant, not without markets altogether] developed methods of avoiding the problem of over-exploitation. -- Michael Perelman Keep in mind that there is an intensive campaign right now to discredit this

RE: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-31 Thread Lisa Ian Murray
Subject: [PEN-L:4] Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs I should have been more clear. The Tragedy of the Commons suggests that environmental destruction comes from the lack of property rights. There is a group in Montana that suggests that all environmental problems

Re: RE: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-31 Thread Jim Devine
At 07:48 AM 7/31/00 -0700, you wrote: In Hardin's scenario, there already is private property rights: "As a rational being, each herdsman seeks to maximize his gain. Explicitly or implicitly, he asks, "What is the utility to me off adding one more animal to my herd?" So what you have under

Re: RE: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-31 Thread Michael Perelman
Interesting, Mark. My interpretation is that markets did not emerge naturally, although that is the ideology of capitalism. I do not mean to apply that you believed so. On the other hand, to denounce the ideology of the Tragedy of the Commons is not to suggest that reverting to pre-capitalist

Re: Re: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-30 Thread Michael Perelman
I read her article in the Journal of Economic Perspectives and found it useful. By the way, The Tragedy of the Commons is crap. In fact, the villages on the commons had developed institutions to tell people how much they could graze. Here are some more gems of capitalist wisdom Heyne, Paul.

RE: Re: Re: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-30 Thread Mark Jones
Michael wrote: The Tragedy of the Commons is crap. In fact, the villages on the commons had developed institutions to tell people how much they could graze. Isn't this a bit of an oversimplification? Arguably 'the commons' are an invention/byproduct of the neolithic agricultural

Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-30 Thread michael
Mark, I think of the commons -- at least the commons that Hardin wrote about -- of the land to which the rural poor had access. I don't deny that they probably, like all humans, degraded their environment, but Hardin was writing in the context of the rationality of enclosing the commons so that

Re: Re: Re: Re: Chinese desertification; disappearing bluecrabs

2000-07-30 Thread JKSCHW
In a message dated 7/30/00 4:49:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I read her article in the Journal of Economic Perspectives and found it useful. By the way, The Tragedy of the Commons is crap. In fact, the villages on the commons had developed institutions to tell