Actually it's the kind of pompous Western bloviating the eXile likes to mock.
Dagestanis are just like Kurds! I don't know Dagestan from a hole on the ground, but
they must be just like Kurds, cause, well, I don't know, they just are! They speak
Dagestani there in Dagestan, they shore do! Where
Actually it's the kind of pompous Western bloviating the eXile likes to mock.
Dagestanis are just like Kurds! I don't know Dagestan from a hole on the ground,
but they must be just like Kurds, cause, well, I don't know, they just are! They
speak Dagestani there in Dagestan, they shore do!
I believe I will get a yahoo account.
To answer the question, the issue is not Chechen independence per se, but what Free
Ichkeria did with its independence and what it is believed it would do again given
the chance; devolve into a militant Islamist failed gangster state specializing in
Sabri Oncu wrote:
Here is one input from one of those from that part of
the world, who is not terrified to speak his mind.
Fuck you Americans!
Get out of our part of the world!
Immediately!
From this morning's local (Bloomington, Il) newspaper (under the
headline: U.S. Marines fight
Chris Doss wrote:
To answer the question, the issue is not Chechen independence per se,
but what Free Ichkeria did with its independence and what it is
believed it would do again given the chance; devolve into a militant
Islamist failed gangster state specializing in banditry, a kidnap/slave
trade
And Russia's reaction to being invaded (twice) should have been what? How should
Russia react to thousand of its citizens being kidnapped and tortured? What should the
Dagestani reaction be to attempts to force it to become a medieval Islamist state?
Reply:
If it is unacceptable to you, then
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:10:24 -0500
I should probably clarify that the First and Second Chechen Wars are completely
different matters. The first was a bone-headed move by Yeltsin against a national
Let's be clear, the determinants of policy, and anti-policy, are not
polls imaginary or real that are conducted by pollsters. What somebody
says a sample of the Iraqi people want or wanted had nothing to do with
the invasion by the United States. What somebody now says the Iraqi
people want has
dmschanoes wrote:
Supporting national liberation, or a self-determination devoid of a
specific class content of that determination, i.e. a program that
includes expropriation of the privatized, now and future, means of
production, is ultimately meaningless.
Not really. The Comintern backed the
dmschanoes wrote:
his war was precipitated by capital's need to destroy parts of the
productive apparatus and maintain a high price for oil.
I hear people say things like this and I wonder how they know. How do
you know this? Documentary evidence, or do you just *know*?
Doug
The Caucasus wars is fundamentally
over control of oil nothing to do with fighting medievalism.
_
That much of what LP writes is almost correct. It is fundamentally over
control of the transport of oil, and for that reason alone the secession
of Chechnya, its
Well, we know where the Comintern's support of the Kuomingtang took the
workers revolution, that's for sure.
And I believe you pose a false choice, in that no bourgeois nationalist
control of Iraqi oil, separate and apart from the domination, military
or market of Western capitalism is possible.
No I just don't know, I've actually studied the price of oil, rates of
return on investment, fixed asset growth in the industry for 30 years.
Here's a tip-- check the Baker Hughes rig counts going back to 1973, and
overlay it with prices and the industry rate of return to 2003. Makes
for an
dmschanoes wrote:
Well, we know where the Comintern's support of the Kuomingtang took the
workers revolution, that's for sure.
Excuse me? The problem was not support for the KMT, but the failure of
the CP to maintain an independent presence, including a newspaper. Even
Trotsky backed the KMT, just
After the Soviet Union collapsed, 14 regions become independent nations.
After Dzhokhar Dudayev was elected president of Chechnya, he declared
independence. But Boris Yeltsin refused to accept this and sent in
troops. After Chechen rebels drove off the Russian troops, a full-scale
invasion was
Chris Doss wrote: Lord. Dagestan is PART of Russia.
That's what Ankara says about Kurdestan.
--
The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
That's what Dagestan says about Dagestan.
Look, I can't believe I have to do this in 2004, but anyway...
Current History
October 2000
Through a Distorted Lens: Chechnya and the Western Media
By ANATOL LIEVEN
ANATOL LIEVEN is a senior associate in the Russia and Eurasia Center of the
Carnegie
Chris Doss wrote:
It is clear why Russia could not have tolerated Chechnya being used
indefinitely as a safe haven for such forces and as a potential base for
further attacks on Russia. For how long would the United States tolerate
such a situation in a neighboring state?
This is exactly the
Chris Doss wrote:
I say: It is unreliable because the country is lawless. Now, why would
the country be lawless. I wonder if it might have something to do with
bands of Islamoid gunmen running around invading adjoining areas of
Russia and kidnapping people. Nah, couldn't be.
Reply: Well, we have
Blagov is usually quite good. I am surprised to see him get so monocausal.
Here, he writes:
It has been often said that disputes over oil transit are behind the
tragedy in unruly Chechnya - seen as the biggest security threat in the
region.
Russia has been keen to use its Baku-Novorossiisk
Chris, I think you won.
Joanna
Louis Proyect wrote:
Chris Doss wrote:
I say: It is unreliable because the country is lawless. Now, why would
the country be lawless. I wonder if it might have something to do with
bands of Islamoid gunmen running around invading adjoining areas of
Russia and
The opinion polls in Chechnya show (rebel leader) Aslan Maskhadov and (pro-Moscow
Chechen president) Aslan Kadyrov as being viewed with about equally phenomenal levels
of dislike. Maskhadov has an about 1% approval rating. It's rough being a warlord. :)
As I recall the polls showed more
Chris Doss wrote:
The opinion polls in Chechnya show (rebel leader) Aslan Maskhadov and
(pro-Moscow Chechen president) Aslan Kadyrov as being viewed with about
equally phenomenal levels of dislike. Maskhadov has an about 1% approval
rating. It's rough being a warlord. :)
Is this an endorsement of
Incidentally there is an interview with Kadyrov right here (edited by moi):
http://www.untimely-thoughts.com/index.html?cat=Aug%202,%202003type=3art=138. As far
as I know it is the only time he has ever been interviewed by a Westerner. It is
pre-2003 election.
You mean on the part of the Chechen population? Hard to say. My impression is that the
majority of the population is very tired of being caught in a cross-fire bewteen
trigger-happy, panicky Russian conscripts and jihadi nutballs and will accept anything
that will get them out of the situation.
Chris Doss wrote:
You mean on the part of the Chechen population? Hard to say. My
impression is that the majority of the population is very tired of being
caught in a cross-fire bewteen trigger-happy, panicky Russian conscripts
and jihadi nutballs and will accept anything that will get them out of
Since you clearly don't want to read the actual
poll, let me supply some highlights for you. These
results don't sound like they're coming from people
too terrified to speak their minds.
Doug
Here is one input from one of those from that part of
the world, who is not terrified to speak his
]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Milan Rai on UN occupation of Iraq
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It's absurd to think that the occupied can freely say what they
believe if they suspect that they have a good chance of talking to an
informer.
Then why did nearly
Lou wrote;
Until there is a level playing field in Iraq, it seems rather
pointless to pay attention to Western pollsters.
It's mind-boggling for leftists such as Milan Rai to suggest that
Western pollsters, whose governments are belligerent occupiers in
Iraq, could get honest answers from the
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It's mind-boggling for leftists such as Milan Rai to suggest that
Western pollsters, whose governments are belligerent occupiers in
Iraq, could get honest answers from the Iraqis whom they survey in
the occupied territory. How would the Iraqis know if the pollsters
Actually, there is historical evidence that during the Ottoman period a
primitive technique of poll taking was developed and used in certain
Sancaks, including in the region what we nowaday call Iraq.
Doug Henwood wrote:
He attributed their enthusiasm to the fact that no one had
asked their
At 2:27 PM -0500 3/26/04, Doug Henwood wrote:
It's mind-boggling for leftists such as Milan Rai to suggest that
Western pollsters, whose governments are belligerent occupiers in
Iraq, could get honest answers from the Iraqis whom they survey in
the occupied territory. How would the Iraqis know if
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Are the current occupiers in Iraq the first belligerent occupier in
history to poll the occupied in the hope of having the world accept
the polling results as a justification for the occupation?
Did you actually read the results of the Gallup Poll? The opinions
were very
Some folks sititng in university offices in the United States often will
attribute to those in other parts of the world who aren't saying what they
want them to say (or can't really hear what they are syaing) the quality of
being a tool.
It is pretty clear from Iraqi sources apart from this poll
Joel wrote:
Some folks sititng in university offices in the United States often will
attribute to those in other parts of the world who aren't saying what they
want them to say (or can't really hear what they are syaing) the quality of
being a tool.
I am at a university, but I occupy a cubicle
The occupation is a situation with no good options at all. For the US to stay, for
the US to pack up and leave immediately, or for the United Nations to come in all
have negative consequences. In addition, a discussion like this necessarily involves
several different measures that various
Some folks sititng in university offices in the United States often will
attribute to those in other parts of the world who aren't saying what they
want them to say (or can't really hear what they are syaing) the quality of
being a tool.
On the other hand, people do often reply to polls by
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Are the current occupiers in Iraq the first belligerent occupier in
history to poll the occupied in the hope of having the world accept
the polling results as a justification for the occupation?
Did you actually read the results of the Gallup Poll? The opinions
were very
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It's absurd to think that the occupied can freely say what they
believe if they suspect that they have a good chance of talking to an
informer.
Then why did nearly 20% say that it was ok to attack U.S. troops? Why
did something like 50% say they had unfavorable opinions of
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It's absurd to think that the occupied can freely say what they
believe if they suspect that they have a good chance of talking to
an informer.
Then why did nearly 20% say that it was ok to attack U.S. troops?
Why did something like 50% say they had unfavorable opinions of
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Doug and Joel ought to remember that Iraq is *under foreign military
occupation conducting counterinsurgency warfare* with censorship,
checkpoints, house raids, arbitrary arrest and detention, no due
process, etc. -- i.e. Iraqis do not have freedom of speech.
Since you
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Doug and Joel ought to remember that Iraq is *under foreign military
occupation conducting counterinsurgency warfare* with censorship,
checkpoints, house raids, arbitrary arrest and detention, no due
process, etc. -- i.e. Iraqis do not have freedom of speech.
And I know
At 9:20 PM -0500 3/26/04, Doug Henwood wrote:
Doug and Joel ought to remember that Iraq is *under foreign
military occupation conducting counterinsurgency warfare* with
censorship, checkpoints, house raids, arbitrary arrest and
detention, no due process, etc. -- i.e. Iraqis do not have freedom
of
I think that this thread regarding polls is becoming repetitive.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Devine, James wrote:
Quoting someone:
Some folks sititng in university offices in the United States often will
And there are some folks who never choose to argue with specific
arguments from specific opponents. They prefer to set up ghostly (and
mostly nonexistent) opponents with silly
Yoshie writes: ?The idea of the occupier polling the occupied with a view to using
the results for propaganda purposes is patently absurd, but you
obviously don't think it is -- very perplexing.
it reminds me of an old cartoon in the NEW YORKER, back in the 1960s: two South
Vietnamese soldiers
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