As a Canadian I've wondered about this myself. Is this nationalism a means of not alientating the nationalistic majority, or is it rooted in something?
The only positive aspect to nationalism I can see is that it can serve as a means of identification that should breed empathy for your neighbours.
That is awesome. I had a discussion with my mother, a sixth grade teacher, about students standing for the national anthem. My mother holds many progressive views, and she is of the opinion, and one should show respect for this country be standing for the anthem. I asked her once, what she would
Those people showed up, and they get my support, as do the half a million Brits, the hundreds of thousands of Canadians, the hundreds of thousands of Europeans, and most importantly the hundreds of thousands of Middle Easterners who reject the supposed stability ousting Hussein will bring. What
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/02/03 21:45 PM
At 8:56 PM -0500 4/2/03, Doug Henwood wrote:
the rhetorical bit of contrasting Bushist actions with
American ideals doesn't work for me at all, since these ideals
have mostly been just a matter of rhetoric. But it works for some,
if not most, US liberals.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/02/03 23:20 PM
A lot of
Americans think that they enjoy the most freedom, democracy, etc. in
the world, despite evidence to the contrary.
Yoshie
have always been partial to notion of 'false consciousness' myself desipite it having
fallen out of
intellectual fashion some
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/03/03 13:38 PM
I refused to pledge allegiance to the flag in 4th grade. It was the
1970-71 school year and I was 9 or 10 years old. The teacher kept me and
a friend I had convinced to go along after class and asked us why. Our
answer: Because there isn't liberty and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/03/03 20:55 PM
From: Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
you want to find something good to say about 30% of
Americans at least. If the American Revolution is any indication, we
need at something like 30% of the US population active on our side to
make any radical change.
G'day Michael,
anti-war movement was never going to stop war here
but it (and public opinion globally is anti-war) forced
u.s. to alter certain plans and, consquently, may have prevented mass iraqi
slaughter, may limit u.s. ability to operate its own protectorate in post-war
period, and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/03/03 13:38 PM
I refused to pledge allegiance to the flag in 4th grade. It was the
1970-71 school year and I was 9 or 10 years old. The teacher kept me and
a friend I had convinced to go along after class and asked us why. Our
answer: Because there isn't liberty and
At 09:37 PM 04/02/2003 -0500, you wrote:
American leftists (broadly defined), on the average, sound to me to be
decidedly more nationalistic than Japanese leftists (also broadly
defined). On the left, the Japanese have nothing to do with the flag, the
anthem, Yasukuni, etc.
The first time I
- Original Message -
From: joanna bujes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The first time I had to salute a flag and sing a national anthem was in
the
U.S. In Romania, we sang the Internationale, and in France, we sang the
Marseillaise on July 14.
Joanna
===
Why is the NA
Title: RE: [PEN-L:36494] the emporer
Why is the NA performed at sports events and not operas or
rock concerts
etc.? Is it performed at stock car races? When did the practice begin?
Ian
I wonder if the National Anthem is played at professional wrestling matches.
(I hate to tell a
I refused to pledge allegiance to the flag in 4th grade. It was the
1970-71 school year and I was 9 or 10 years old. The teacher kept me and
a friend I had convinced to go along after class and asked us why. Our
answer: Because there isn't liberty and justice for all. Nobody had
told us to do
At 9:12 PM -0800 4/2/03, andie nachgeborenen wrote:
The US government has been constantly waging war, overtly or
covertly, against one nation or another, or one movement or
another, ever since the USA became the world's hegemon. Such
material conditions have created ideological conditions
I don't think this list is representative of broadly defined US leftists. First of all, lots of PEN-pals who regularly post here aren't Americans by citizenship. I live in the States but my passport is Japanese. There are a number of Canadians, Turks, etc. here. You go to any anti-war demo in the
Your fervor to deny that anything good could be American is disturbing.
jks
You're mired in nostalgia, Justin. I can't think of a single good thing to
say about the contemporary United States.
Carl
_
Help STOP SPAM with the new
At 08:29 PM 04/03/2003 +, you wrote:
You're mired in nostalgia, Justin. I can't think of a single good thing
to say about the contemporary United States.
The very, very large anti-war demonstrations?
Joanna
Yoshie, see?
Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Your fervor to deny that anything good could be American is disturbing.jksYou're mired in nostalgia, Justin. I can't think of a single good thing to say about the contemporary United
joanna bujes wrote:
At 08:29 PM 04/03/2003 +, you wrote:
You're mired in nostalgia, Justin. I can't think of a single good
thing to say about the contemporary United States.
The very, very large anti-war demonstrations?
You, me, Michael Perelman, Edward Said, Kim Gordon?
Justin wrote:
Most peace marches aren't attended mainly by leftists, as you well
know. Those that are are too small to matter, The left, that is,
people who are within the sphere or orbit of socialism, especially
organized socialism, and that is what I mean by the left, is tiny.
The culture of
At 08:29 PM 04/03/2003 +, you wrote:
You're mired in nostalgia, Justin. I can't think of a single good thing
to say about the contemporary United States.
The very, very large anti-war demonstrations?
Joanna
Ah, yes, the demonstrations -- with their very, very, very modest favorable
impact
The culture of US socialists is a good deal more nuanced than what you suggest. You can look to Jim's remark here, check up Lou's marxmail list archive and follow threads concerning US troops, etc., and you'll hear a variety of voices. A few of them fit your stereotype, to be sure, but the
They are so only insofar as they do not threaten
capitalism. Note the intervention in Chile. Note the constant co-operation with
undemocratic regimes as long as they provide oil etc. There is no attempt to
overthrow Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc. etc. Bourgeois freedoms are a more
efficient way
of the spectrum from the Japanese.
Kristie
From: Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 13:55:36 -0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:36502] Re: the emporer
At 9:12 PM -0800 4/2/03, andie nachgeborenen wrote:
The US government has been
Justin says:
Your fervor to deny that anything good could be American is disturbing.
jks
You're mired in nostalgia, Justin. I can't think of a single good
thing to say about the contemporary United States.
Carl
Yoshie, see?
Well, Carl isn't a socialist -- he's a fellow traveler. :-
What
You're mired in nostalgia, Justin. I can't think of a single good
thing to say about the contemporary United States.
The very, very large anti-war demonstrations?
You, me, Michael Perelman, Edward Said, Kim Gordon?
Good things about America are severely marginalized in America. The
problem
andie nachgeborenen wrote:
Your
fervor to deny that anything good could be American is disturbing.
Good things can be possessed or supported by Americans, and have been.
But your sentence is ambiguous. Good things are American -- i.e., if
it's not American, it's not good. I think Chomsky
PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, April 03,
2003 12:46 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:
[PEN-L:36512] Re: Re: Re: Re: the emporer
Yoshie, see?
Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Your
fervor to deny that anything good could be American is
disturbing.jksYou're mired in nostalgia, Justin
- Original Message -
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 1:52 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:36525] RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: the emporer
hmmm... it's amazing how JKS uses anecdotal evidence (one case) to trump
a
statistical argument about
Wait, there have been hundred of thousands in SF, half a million in NYC,
and many, many thousands accross the country before a shot was fired. This
is not significant?
I'm am ashamed and frightened of being an American right nowbut
still, I have to admit that all those people did shown up.
atistical argument about conditions on the left and pen-l in general.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
-Original Message-From: andie nachgeborenen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 12:46 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [PEN-L:36512] Re:
This thread seems to be going nowhere. In politics patriotism means
little less than devaluing others.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
At 1:20 PM -0800 4/3/03, andie nachgeborenen wrote:
If I say freedom and democracy are American values, you think, like
most Americans, that I cannot say American imperialism is wicked.
And vice versa. But I do say both in very strong terms.
You can and do, but what of the culture of US
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, April 03,
2003 2:27 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:
[PEN-L:36532] Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: the emporer
I didn't see anything I, a U-M polisci trained number cruncher, would
recognize as a statistical argument, e.g., a rigorously operationalized
de
You're right about the first part, anyway. Let's stop it. I'm tired of it. jks
Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This thread seems to be going nowhere. In politics patriotism meanslittle less than devaluing others.-- Michael PerelmanEconomics DepartmentCalifornia State UniversityChico, CA
At 3:16 PM -0600 4/3/03, Kristie Reilly wrote:
Is there a kind of communitarianism in Japan, though, that makes
up for the lack of obvious patriotism you see on the Japanese left?
Though I don't know how true these generalizations are (haven't
studied or been to Japan), I've heard Japanese
From: Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well, Carl isn't a socialist -- he's a fellow traveler. :-
The woes of taxonomy! As you'll recall, I am a soi-disant *fallow*
traveler. But I do nail my colors to the mast as a socialist of some sort
... being, ah, mired in nostalgia myself.
Carl
One case indeed. I assure you I make up in quality what I lack in quantity
:)
Carl
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
hmmm... it's amazing how JKS uses anecdotal evidence (one case) to trump a
statistical argument about conditions on the left and pen-l in general.
Jim Devine [EMAIL
Title: RE: [PEN-L:36542] Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: the emporer
me too.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
stop the war now!
-Original Message-
From: Carl Remick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 3
Carl:
a socialist of some sort
Of a grouchy sort, I'm sure. :- As the job market is still fallow,
though, you are entitled to as many grouches as you like.
One more thought on patriotism on the (broadly defined) US left.
What I don't like about today's patriotic expressions on the left
side
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Good things about America are severely marginalized in America. The
problem of American culture isn't its marginalized elements (with
which no leftists anywhere have any quarrel); the problem is its
dominant ideology.
For sure, but sometimes even lefties subscribe to
From: Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Carl:
a socialist of some sort
Of a grouchy sort, I'm sure. :-
Grouchy and worse. Like my neighbor Walt Whitman:
I am he who knew what it was to be evil;
I too knitted the old knot of contrariety,
Blabbd, blushd, resented, lied, stole, grudgd,
Had
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Good things about America are severely marginalized in America. The
problem of American culture isn't its marginalized elements (with
which no leftists anywhere have any quarrel); the problem is its
dominant ideology.
For sure, but sometimes even lefties subscribe to
From: Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Carl:
a socialist of some sort
Of a grouchy sort, I'm sure. :-
Grouchy and worse. Like my neighbor Walt Whitman:
I am he who knew what it was to be evil;
I too knitted the old knot of contrariety,
Blabbd, blushd, resented, lied, stole, grudgd,
Had
Title: RE: [PEN-L:36396] the emporer
Emperor George
What has become of American values and idealism? All swept away in this
thoroughly un-American war
Jonathan Freedland
Wednesday April 2, 2003
The Guardian
Ian writes: obviously the guy hasn't read William Appleman Williams.
yeah, the
Devine, James wrote:
yeah, the rhetorical bit of contrasting Bushist actions with
American ideals doesn't work for me at all, since these ideals
have mostly been just a matter of rhetoric. But it works for some,
if not most, US liberals. If I send it to my mom, she'll be
impressed.
I think
I'm with your mom. I'm outraged as an internationalist, and offended and ashamed as an American. But this is something you can be argued into, though I think the feral alienation from America on the left has regrettably diminished our appeal in this nation. jks
"Devine, James" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
At 6:04 PM -0800 4/2/03, andie nachgeborenen wrote:
I think the feral alienation from America on the left has
regrettably diminished our appeal in this nation. jks
American leftists (broadly defined), on the average, sound to me to
be decidedly more nationalistic than Japanese leftists (also
At 8:56 PM -0500 4/2/03, Doug Henwood wrote:
yeah, the rhetorical bit of contrasting Bushist actions with
American ideals doesn't work for me at all, since these ideals
have mostly been just a matter of rhetoric. But it works for some,
if not most, US liberals. If I send it to my mom, she'll be
The question is why such promises -- freedom, self-development, democracy, etc. -- are cast as "American" values and ideals.--
Just because we say they are American doesn't mean that they can't be other people's too. Americans do have a particular mix of them ("We hold these truths to be self
Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 6:04 PM -0800 4/2/03, andie nachgeborenen wrote:I think the feral alienation from America on the left has regrettably diminished our appeal in this nation. jksAmerican leftists (broadly defined), on the average, sound to me to be decidedly more
Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 6:04 PM -0800 4/2/03, andie nachgeborenen wrote:
I think the feral alienation from America on the left has
regrettably diminished our appeal in this nation. jks
American leftists (broadly defined), on the average, sound to me to
be decidedly more
Justin says:
The question is why such promises -- freedom, self-development,
democracy, etc. -- are cast as American values and ideals.
Just because we say they are American doesn't mean that they can't
be other people's too. Americans do have a particular mix of them
(We hold these truths to
Your point again? You think it will help spread our message if we start going on about Pig Fascist Amerikkka? Most Americans don't believe most of what we believe. Maybe if we believe some of what they believe, and bend it a bit our way, we will do better in reaching them. Moreover it is true that
The US government has been constantly waging war, overtly or covertly, against one nation or another, or one movement or another, ever since the USA became the world's hegemon. Such material conditions have created ideological conditions saturated with such symbols of nationalism as the flag, the
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