Justin, you, and to some extent Doug, have been asking for concrete
explanations of how planning would work. I don't see how market socialism
would work either. Seriously. The problem is that markets don't work
very well either. If you are dealing with what Sol Tax called penny
capitalism --
In a message dated 7/15/00 10:49:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
However, if one is interested in the interaction of market and
planning under socialism, I would suggest pen-l-ers would be
advised to read (or reread) Branko Horva'ts 1982 book, _The
Political
In a message dated 7/16/00 2:09:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Justin, you, and to some extent Doug, have been asking for concrete
explanations of how planning would work. I don't see how market socialism
would work either. Seriously. The problem is that markets
jks;
Where did I ever say that you were a 'hired agent of the borgeoisie' or
that you 'defend polluters..
and tobacco interests." etc? If I, not knowing you personally, were to
have made such
statements, it would be slanderous and politically dishonest.
You know i would never make
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As an intellectual movement, analytical Marxism has run out steam. There remains a
body of excellent work, even if the people who produced it are no longer mainly
working in the area.
Yes. One of the reasons for this was that AM and the debates within it
were
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I will add that the anti-metaphysical animus of logical positivism was wholly gone
by then; courses were offered on metaphysics, and "epistemology metaphysics" is one
of the core specializations.
The anti-metaphysics of the original Logical Positivists was
If basic needs are supplied in a fair manner, I don't really care if the market
exists or not. But, how does Hayek's great insight explain why health care can be
planned and other goods can not. Why is there an incentive to get good
information in this case and not in others? Surely the
Justin Schwartz has been recommending the market socialism of David
Schweickart for years now. When I first heard his sales pitch, I went to
the library and took out the only book of Schweickart's available:
"Capitalism or Worker Control?, an Ethical and Economic Appraisal", written
in 1980.
G'day Justin,
Or any sort of philosopher. But he was analytical, among his other virtues.
Awright, comrade. You've said this twice now, so I'll chance a nibble.
Why was Marx not any sort of philosopher? Why, for instance, should *A
Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right*
G'day, Michael,
Sez you:
Wow! Summers has discovered Schumpeter!
Geez, I'd love to know where Schumpeter says that stuff about monopoly
rents being requisite for investment! I'd missed that in my
vulture-pecking of the great man's corpus, and it'd fit some stuff I'm
writing on
It is a major theme of his Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy.
Rob Schaap wrote:
G'day, Michael,
Sez you:
Wow! Summers has discovered Schumpeter!
Geez, I'd love to know where Schumpeter says that stuff about monopoly
rents being requisite for investment! I'd missed that in my
I have read Schweickart, but you do us all a service by summarizing his work so
well. Let's look at (1). Some cooperatives do better than others. Now comes
time to replace a worker. What is the relative position of her/his replacement?
Does the original worker share in the continued profits
Glad it was only a major theme - else I'd be a bit embarrassed at missing
it ...
Glowing redly,
Rob.
It is a major theme of his Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy.
Rob Schaap wrote:
G'day, Michael,
Sez you:
Wow! Summers has discovered Schumpeter!
Geez, I'd love to know where
Doug wrote:
Carrol Cox wrote:
Now what do you think the
responsibility of U.S. leftists is in respect to Cuba?
To stop the goddamn embargo and do our best to reduce the level of
hostility in word and deed.
Is this _really_ obvious to all American leftists (loosely defined)?
Especially the
Paul Phillips wrote:
I would also suggest that we
need look at the experience with market socialism -- i.e. the
Yugoslav experience -- to see why, or indeed if, it went wrong.
I think that the Yugoslav experience tells us that market socialism
doesn't serve to minimize the gap between richer
NY Times Book Review, July 16, 2000
BOOKEND / By D. T. MAX
No More Rejections
When I was an assistant in the mid-80's at Washington Square Press, a
literary paperback publisher, my job was to help the editor find hardcover
novels worth reprinting. We received hundreds of submissions a month.
The Guardian (London), January 2, 1993
CO-OPS FACE AN UNEQUAL FIGHT; Andy Robinson looks at the erosion of
egalitarianism in a sector facing upheaval
By ANDY ROBINSON
THE BASQUE co-operative group, Mondragon, whose ability to combine
co-operative philosophy with business acumen made it the
Louis wrote:
The other thing left out of the equation is the degree to which
competitiveness inculcated a "dog eat dog" mentality that made it tempting
for the more well-off republics like Croatia to break away. If the logic is
self-improvement, why not take the law of profitability and
This is a very helpful post. Is there anywhere on line where one could read up on
the essential features of market socialism etc. I am not too close to a
university library and even when I get there I expect with cutbacks most stuff is
not there. I would have to get it on interlibrary loan.
Just
Paul, what do you think of Cheryl Payer's analysis of Yugo.? She says that the
US encouraged self-management to split Yugo. from the USSR.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Paul, you did not mention the role of foreign remitances. I thought that the end
of the opportunity to work in Germany when that economy slowed down was an
important factor.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL
Michael,
What is the reference for that? Thanks, Steve
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Michael Perelman wrote:
Paul, what do you think of Cheryl Payer's analysis of Yugo.? She says that the
US encouraged self-management to split Yugo. from the USSR.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
Debt Trap. Monthly Review Press, I think.
Michael,
What is the reference for that? Thanks, Steve
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Michael Perelman wrote:
Paul, what do you think of Cheryl Payer's analysis of Yugo.? She says that the
US encouraged self-management to split Yugo. from the USSR.
The Guardian (London), January 2, 1993
CO-OPS FACE AN UNEQUAL FIGHT; Andy Robinson looks at the erosion of
egalitarianism in a sector facing upheaval
THE BASQUE co-operative group, Mondragon, whose ability to combine
co-operative philosophy with business acumen made it the darling of
Michael,
This is the first I have ever heard of this suggestion. It sounds
highly improbable to me. According to all my Yugo sources, the
decision was taken in 1950 largely at the suggestion/urging of
Edvard Kardelj, who was a close associate of Tito's. It was a
response to the failure of
There is a streak of naivety in Schweickart but I do not think the issue of
Yugoslavia is central to deciding the merits of his model. His naivety is
that he writes with scrupulous logic and goodwill about various economic
and political scenarios. I cannot help feeling his location in the
I am working by memory, but her work said that the U.S. encouraged Yugoslavia to
follow through with a self-management as a means of further differentiating itself
from the Soviet Union, worried that the two countries might develop a rapprochement.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael,
This is
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There is a new federal party in Canada called the Canadian Alliance
Party. It was supposed to unite the right and the Reform (now
Alliance) and Conservative Party. However, the Conservative Party did
not join the alliance although two Conservative Premiers, Klein in
Alberta and Harris in Ontario
In a message dated 7/16/00 6:29:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If basic needs are supplied in a fair manner, I don't really care if the
market
exists or not. But, how does Hayek's great insight explain why health care
can be
planned and other goods can not. Why is
How do you propose to get to a nonmarket socialism? Seems to me the
only hope is to bend, push, modify, transform what exists now, which
means, in Diane Elson's phrase, socializing markets. It seems
abstract and adventurist to talk about any postmarket socialism as if
you could just pull
In a message dated 7/16/00 10:02:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
G'day Justin,
Or any sort of philosopher. But he was analytical, among his other virtues.
Awright, comrade. You've said this twice now, so I'll chance a nibble.
Why was Marx not any sort of
In a message dated 7/16/00 11:02:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I have read Schweickart, but you do us all a service by summarizing his
work so
well. Let's look at (1). Some cooperatives do better than others. Now
comes
time to replace a worker. What is the
In a message dated 7/16/00 1:45:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
This is a very helpful post. Is there anywhere on line where one could
read up on
the essential features of market socialism etc.
Don't know, alas. I'd order Dave's book, in paperback from Westview Press.
Sure. Mondragon is just good evidence that the thing might work. It is not
market socialism. It is worker self-management in a capitalist context. Btw,
I think that Kasmir's good book does not trash Mondragon, she rather asks us
to appreciate its limitations. It is true that unions and worker
Justin wrote:
Attacking Hayek for being too neoclassical is like attacking Marx for
being too neoclassical. Hayek, Mises, and the Austrians dislike NCE for
many of the same reasons that Marxists do: it's a poor description of
actual markets (this is more Hayek than Mises) ...
I didn't say
In a message dated 7/16/00 7:04:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There is a streak of naivety in Schweickart but I do not think the issue
of
Yugoslavia is central to deciding the merits of his model. His naivety is
that he writes with scrupulous logic and goodwill
Jim offers a long, meaty, and substantive discussion. I will look it over
tomorrow and see if I have more to say, but a few comparatively short
responses on a quick read through. Btw, this is part I of II. The message was
too long for my system to handle.
I didn't say that Hayek and the
Of course the co-op groups and outfits have existed for many many
decades--
there are farm co-ops , tenant co-ops, food store co-ops, even
condominium co-ops !!
etc . Most the forces in them are trying to find away around and limiting
the daily rip-offs of
the market system itself. Most
To use Justin's technique. Go read the Regina Manifesto.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
neil wrote:
Of course the co-op groups and outfits have existed for many many
decades--
there are farm co-ops , tenant co-ops, food store co-ops, even
condominium co-ops !!
etc . Most the forces in them are
Of course, someday Neil might actually accomplish 1/100th of a Bill
Haywood in terms of concrete results...
Steve
Stephen Philion
Lecturer/PhD Candidate
Department of Sociology
2424 Maile Way
Social Sciences Bldg. # 247
Honolulu, HI 96822
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Ken Hanly wrote:
To use
This is good for the socialist soul.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
Co-Operative Commonwealth Federation
Programme
Adopted at First National Convention Held at Regina,
Saskatchewan, July, 1933.
The Regina Manifesto
The CCF is a federation of
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