"Ricardo Duchesne" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/12/00 10:23AM
Simply saying that one can, as Diamond does, draw a rough line accross
the African continent to distinguish "white" Africa from "black" Africa
proper. Egyptians, Tunisians, Moroccans, Libyans and others in the
Northern areas are
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:26:58 -0400
From: "Charles Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:18012] Re: guns, germs, steel
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The US being what it is - real paranoia over race - I guess it
"Ricardo Duchesne" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/12/00 12:42PM
The US being what it is - real paranoia over race - I guess it is better to
leave this subject untouched.
___
CB: Paranoia , in the sense of irrational and unfounded fear, is not an accurate way
to describe the US on
Logically, therefore, scholars and intellectuals of color
militantly critique books, lectures and other intellectual
expressions that express and reflect this white supremacy or racism.
Even liberal scholars can reflect white supremacy, such that one
part of their work is anti-racist, but
And when they accuse anti-racist authors *whom* *they* *have* *not*
*read* of racism, they look *really* *stupid*...
Brad DeLong
Actually, nobody has charged Jared Diamond with racism, only geographical
determinism. For that matter the review that Chris Kromm forwarded made the
explicit point
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/12/00 12:33PM
Logically, therefore, scholars and intellectuals of color
militantly critique books, lectures and other intellectual
expressions that express and reflect this white supremacy or racism.
Even liberal scholars can reflect white supremacy,
Sam Pawlett wrote:
On a more abstract level, Diamond's ideas bear a prima facie
similarity to a type of historical materialism defended by Alan Carling
built on an analogy to natural selection (i don't think actual natural
selection plays a role in Carling)where societies with lower
Sam P. writes:
I haven't read Diamond but his theory, if one can call it that, seems like
a more sophistacted variant of the old Euro-centric theories that Europe
advanced over the rest of the world because Africa and Asia lacked the
physical resources necessary to build capitalist
Sam Pawlett wrote:
I forgot to add that the Carling theory seems to beg the question
since some societies have a higher level of pf's [productive forces]
because they select out others without explaining how theses socities
became that way in the first place.
Diamond initially explains why
I dont know if this is a work of "total genius" but it is certainly a
masterful explanation for the differing patterns of development of
the continents of the world. But what is so troubling for many in the
left about this book is that it proves beyond a doubt that Africa's
backwardness was a
Ricardo writes:
I dont know if this is a work of "total genius" but it is certainly a
masterful explanation for the differing patterns of development of
the continents of the world. But what is so troubling for many in the left
about this book is that it proves beyond a doubt that Africa's
Once every couple of weeks I play chess with John and Jeffrey. Jeffrey is a
long-time Nation subscriber and John, a lawyer by profession, is the kind
of New Yorker who voted for Giuliani. I usually let the two of them argue
politics since the gap between John and me is too wide to allow civil
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/09/00 04:46PM
(book review)
___-
CB: Thanks for this book review, Jim.
I was a little unclear. At first it seemed you were saying that the author was
explaining the conquests of the last 500 years. Then there seems to be discussion
going back to
What I got from the Diamond book was not The Naked Ape, but more of an
environmental history. The European/Asian regions that developed had access to
large draft animals and easily harvested seeds. Close proximity to the large
mammals created diseases for which these people had immunity, making
Quoth Louis P: As soon as it came out, he began waving Jared Diamond's
book in our face. "See," he shouted, "we had nothing to do with black
people's suffering."
His interpretation of the book is wrong. It sounds like he hadn't read the
book. It's always a big mistake to praise (or, for that
I dont know if this is a work of "total genius" but it is certainly a
masterful explanation for the differing patterns of development of
the continents of the world. But what is so troubling for many in the
left about this book is that it proves beyond a doubt that Africa's
backwardness was a
I do know that Jim Blaut makes a few dismissive comments in Diamond's
direction. Myself, I have yet to see anything in the reviews that would
make me want to delve into his book. I first stumbled across Diamond about
ten years ago, when reviews portrayed him as a sociobiologist in the Robert
I don't know, West Africa was "more advanced" than Europe during the
European Middle Ages, the 500 years before 1500. The ecology didn't
change in the interim.
I tend to think of Europe's leap forward over the rest of the world
(not just Africa) in the last 500 years, as an expression of a
I dont know if this is a work of "total genius" but it is certainly a
masterful explanation for the differing patterns of development of
the continents of the world. But what is so troubling for many in the
left about this book is that it proves beyond a doubt that Africa's
backwardness was
the east African coast, the House of Peace, have a name from a
language whose heartland is two thousand miles north?
Because, he would say, that region is not Africa, that is, Black
Africa.
Why isn't Dar-es-Salaam considered part of Black Africa? For that matter,
what constitutes Black
"Ricardo Duchesne" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/10/00 03:42PM
I still think his argument is, by implication, a direct challege
to dependency theory, eventhough he never refers to this word; and he
certainly does not say that a process of "underdevelopment" occurs
in Africa after 1500. He is very
CB: Thanks for this book review, Jim.
you're welcome
I was a little unclear. At first it seemed you were saying that the author
was explaining the conquests of the last 500 years. Then there seems to be
discussion going back to the origin of agriculture , which is 7,000 years
ago or so.
Because, he would say, that region is not Africa, that is, Black
Africa.
__
CB: What does being BLACK Africa have to do with "ecological/geographical
conditions" ? Sounds like Diamond has an inconsistent and racist theory.
Simply saying that one can, as Diamond does, draw a
1) I have not followed the entire thread closely. Is a distinction being
made between pre- and post-Arabicization/Islamicization?
2) This is factually incorrect in either case.
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
Egyptians, Tunisians, Moroccans, Libyans and others in the
Northern areas are "white".
but Sudan is classified as part of "Northern Africa", and sometimes Middle
East. Sudanese workers go to work in Egypt as seasonal workers. There is
some african labor force living in Egypt, particulary in the south, and
in other regions such as persian gulf states. This distinction between
Ricardo says that Diamond is a direct challenge to dependency theory. I
think that he would agree that institutions play a larger role after 1600
than before. He deals with before that time.
I've been browsing through Lexis-Nexis this afternoon on and off trying to
get a handle on Diamond. It
I agree with Lou. But on this an interesting exchange took place in Toronto
Star a few years ago. A Somalian refugee wrote a letter chastising the black
community for not doing more for refugees from that part of the world. Some one
responded that it was because they did not consider Somalians
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/10/00 03:22PM
I was a little unclear. At first it seemed you were saying that the author
was explaining the conquests of the last 500 years. Then there seems to be
discussion going back to the origin of agriculture , which is 7,000 years
ago or so.
"Ricardo Duchesne" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/10/00 04:27PM
Because, he would say, that region is not Africa, that is, Black
Africa.
__
CB: What does being BLACK Africa have to do with "ecological/geographical
conditions" ? Sounds like Diamond has an inconsistent and racist
I agree with Lou. But on this an interesting exchange took place in Toronto
Star a few years ago. A Somalian refugee wrote a letter chastising the black
community for not doing more for refugees from that part of the world.
Some one
responded that it was because they did not consider Somalians
Brad writes:
Ken Pomeranz's _The Great Divergence_ develops it to some degree--that the
very *success* of India and China at mobilizing resources gave them large
populations, and that Europe's earlier lack of success at mobilizing
resources gave at an extra edge of free resources that helped
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/10/00 05:05PM
this doesn't contradict Diamond, for what it's worth. His emphasis,
however, is on how the unity of the Chinese empire (success) implied later
failure due to lack of dynamism.
__
CB: This is consistent with the "law" of evolutionary
I've been browsing through Lexis-Nexis this afternoon on and off trying to
get a handle on Diamond. It appears that his theory lends itself to rather
clearcut differences between let's say the British settlers and the
aborigines of Australia and why one group conquered another. However, it
Because, he would say, that region is not Africa, that is, Black
Africa.
__
CB: What does being BLACK Africa have to do with "ecological/geographical
conditions" ? Sounds like Diamond has an inconsistent and racist theory.
Simply saying that one can, as Diamond does, draw
Jim Devine wrote have mentioned one other slightly Marx-like touch: Diamond
observes that a surplus is required before the superstructure of the state can be
erected. However, Diamond seems to be more of a materialist than a Marxist since
he does not concern himself with either class or social
Michael wrote:
Jim Devine wrote have mentioned one other slightly Marx-like touch:
Diamond observes that a surplus is required before the superstructure of
the state can be erected. However, Diamond seems to be more of a
materialist than a Marxist since he does not concern himself with
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