Tuomas Lukka [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On 4 Aug 2000, Ariel Scolnicov wrote:
Karl Glazebrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
OK I will raise to the bait
I think it's a bit unfair to say that PDL people have failed to 'bite',
there was quite a bit of discussion on our list after
On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:03:28 -0400, Ted Ashton wrote:
If we've decided that chomp isn't going to return the clippings, would it not
seem prudent to make
while (chomp(ARGV))
work like
while (ARGV)
You mean, like, the -l command line switch? (see perlrun)
chomp() on input, append newlines
On Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 02:50:39PM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
Its a higher level construct. Akin to telling your interior decorator
that you'd like the furniture to match the wallpaper. You've left
out all the details but the decorator can easily see what you're talking
about.
So
On Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 11:31:30PM -0400, Ken Fox wrote:
not because language design is a fun thing to do of an evening.
Huh? You mean I'm supposed to pretend to not enjoy myself? I keep
all my hair shirts at work, thanks.
Don't be stupid. I said we're *primarily* doing it for the good of
"Kyle R . Burton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
use self = 'self';
use self = 'this';
Of course, if you _really_ want to avoid religious wars, you would
need a non-selfish pragma name in the first place.
-- Johan
Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
However, cpp has the significant advantage that its active syntax is
designed to be embedded in a programming language and are Perl comments.
This is *not* true of m4, which would be horribly, horribly confused by a
Perl script.
I fail to see this
On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 00:47:06 -0500, J. David Blackstone wrote:
As another example, at work we are in love with the $/ variable,
since we often deal in multi-line records delimited with control-Y's.
However, changing this variable affects _everything_, meaning modules
you want to use might not
[The original subject was: Sublist autosubscribe, but that was
rejected by the mailing list manager.]
I would plea for autosubscribing perl6-language list members to every
sublist that gets spawned. The reason is continuity.
Currently, when a new sublist is announced, it takes some time to get
John Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think this should mean what it means in Icon, namely, that
$x $y evaluates to false if $x = $y, and evaluates to
"$y (but true)" if $x $y.
Icon also allows $x == ( 1 | 2 ), meaning ($x == 1) || ($x == 2).
-- Johan
On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:54:16 -0500, Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
Csave
If I had my druthers, save() would be it.
I'm against it. Why? Because it suggests that all it does is save the
value for later retrieval. It does not: the value is cleared as well. It
masks the previous global value, as if
I haven't gotten my head around anything curried, except Indian food
but it appears to be powerful, and a kind of like generic programming on
the fly. I'd like to learn more: if someone would give a tutorial
reference that would be helpful.
A quick description is here:
Simon Cozens wrote:
Right. You don't seem to be getting it, so I'm going to have to be harsh
here.
Are you sure? Is it possible that it's just that this isn't a side of
programming you've had need for or are familiar with yourself? TMTOWTDI, you
know, even if you're way is the best way.
You
On Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:47:47PM +1000, Jeremy Howard wrote:
I feel that your RFC misses the inclusive nature of perl.
Then I withdraw it. Perl should not stay Perl, fuck it. Call me when it's
time to get coding.
--
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
I'd thought I try to summarize what has come up so far and see if we can
find somebody who can write some RFCs.
Terrific--thanks!
Make sure you read the interesting RFCs from Damian Conway on related
issues:
* Built-ins: min() and max() functions and acceptors
* Built-ins: reduce()
On Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 12:04:30PM +0200, Bart Lateur wrote:
On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:54:16 -0500, Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
Csave
If I had my druthers, save() would be it.
I'm against it. Why? Because it suggests that all it does is save the
value for later retrieval. It does not: the
On Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 10:54:25PM +0900, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:47:47PM +1000, Jeremy Howard wrote:
I feel that your RFC misses the inclusive nature of perl.
Then I withdraw it. Perl should not stay Perl, fuck it. Call me when it's
time to get coding.
This language is
Personally, I don't think I've ever used any of these, but I really
don't want to speak for everyone.
Maybe an RFC "Functions and Variables to Remove in Perl 6" ?
-Nate
Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
Here in my pre-caffiene morning trance it occurs to me that a few of
the "fringe" features of
Jonathan Scott Duff writes:
: Here in my pre-caffiene morning trance it occurs to me that a few of
: the "fringe" features of perl should be removed from the langauge.
: Here's a few things that I would venture to say that none of the
: "perl5 is my first perl" people have probably ever actually
On Sat, 05 Aug 2000, Nathan Wiger wrote:
Here in my pre-caffiene morning trance it occurs to me that a few of
the "fringe" features of perl should be removed from the langauge.
Here's a few things that I would venture to say that none of the
"perl5 is my first perl" people have probably
At 09:17 AM 8/5/00 -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
I'm not enamoured of the study interface, but the algorithm is
definitely a win on certain classes of data. The basic problem with
study is that it needs incestuous hooks into how you do string
searching. So even if we moved study out into an external
Of all the variations that I've seen so far (I'm way behind on reading
the list), the one I like the best is:
qc{ multi
line
comment
here }
Second best, but still acceptable would be:
#END
multi
line
comment
END
The reason it's second best, is because qc{ canbeusedinline } as well as
I should read what has been said about the matter earlier...but
lacking the time, I'll just shoot:
What's wrong with stealing from C/C++/Java instead
of trying to invent our own?
In other words, what's wrong with /* ... */?
--
$jhi++; # http://www.iki.fi/jhi/
#
Oh, the table thing. The switch statement is useful without learning the
complete table so I don't think complexity is a big problem. People can
learn what they need and ignore the rest. I agree with you that it might
be nice to have an array membership operator (like "in") so
Original Message
Subject: Re: Sublist auto*
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 14:39:33 -0400
From: Edwin Wiles [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: Totally Disorganized
To: Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Johan Vromans wrote:
I would plea for autosubscribing
On Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:40:29AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote:
Oh, the table thing. The switch statement is useful without learning the
complete table so I don't think complexity is a big problem. People can
learn what they need and ignore the rest. I agree with you that it might
I also confess to liking // more for till-end-of-line comment marker
than #, the hash looks so messy to my eye...of course, // already has
a meaning...
--
$jhi++; # http://www.iki.fi/jhi/
# There is this special biologist word we use for 'stable'.
# It is 'dead'. -- Jack Cohen
[cc to perl6-announce removed]
On Sun, 6 Aug 2000 04:54:03 +1000 (EST), Damian Conway wrote (in part):
Damian I've proposed that the want() function will be able to
Damian distinguish a HASHREF context (there the return value is
Damian used as a hash reference).
Damian $subname =
@a = @b || @c should 'work'. In P5 it puts @b in scalar context and thus
evaluates as the number of elements in @b if there are any.
This one is so tiny, I feel like it should be grouped with something else
before it's big enough for an RFC... what do people think? Is it part of a
larger
Glenn, et.al.
I'm going to be combining a number of different comments in here.
Glenn Linderman wrote:
I was surprised by the read/write operations, but have no objection to them.
New/get/set and the individual data member access functions are the critical
pieces, as the I/O could be done to
Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I fail to see this point.
Having a program depend on a preprocessing stage that, if skipped,
would still result in valid but erroneous source seems dangerous to me.
No, the point is more that normal Perl source is *full* of active m4
characters.
Johan Vromans [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I would plea for autosubscribing perl6-language list members to every
sublist that gets spawned. The reason is continuity.
Currently, I'm trying to deal with the volume of Perl lists by subscribing
to just the "top-level" lists and relying on the
Nick Ing-Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What about Chide ?
I think Cproxy or Cdeputy has merit - "while I am out contact ...".
But I still think Csave is the essence of what it does.
I like either Chide or Csave too, but just to throw out the other idea
that occurred to me, what's being
Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I also confess to liking // more for till-end-of-line comment marker
than #, the hash looks so messy to my eye...of course, // already has
a meaning...
I'm the other way around.
This may depend a lot on whether one comes from a shell scripting
Johan Vromans writes:
Currently, when a new sublist is announced, it takes some time to get
subscribed (usually my first 3 or 4 attempts fail since the list does
not exist yet) and when I wait a while and the subscription succeeds,
I already have missed several messages.
I think the best way
Alan Burlison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"Randal L. Schwartz" wrote:
Graham sub def { my @a = (9,8,7); return @a; }
That's not returning the array. That's returning a copy of the contents
of @a in a list context, and the number of elements of @a in a scalar
context, using the "@a"
Peter Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Another one for my wish list: deep copying support built in.
I don't like this. Not because it isn't useful -- of course it is.
But it seems to me to add very little to the language, at the cost of
a great deal of linguistic baggage.
Consider this:
Russ Allbery wrote:
Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I also confess to liking // more for till-end-of-line comment marker
than #, the hash looks so messy to my eye...of course, // already has
a meaning...
I'm the other way around.
This may depend a lot on whether one
On Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 06:37:12AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote:
The solution is simple: return hashes instead of lists.
I still think returning lists *or* hashrefs according to context gives
the same benefits *plus* backwards compatibility.
I sent v2 before I saw just suggestion...wait
Lisp calls this sort of thing a "documentation string". One nice
thing about the Lisp syntax is that it works even if the Lisp doesn't
support docstrings!
We can also do this. Consider this (upcoming) Perl6 code:
sub foo {
"Snarf the frobnitzers if x 0.1";
my $x = shift;
# ...
}
It is
John Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perl's similarity to English is one of the things that makes it Fun.
OTOH, being fun (which I admit it is) is one of the reasons many
people don't want to think Perl is a serious language.
English had the same problem for 100s of
Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[...]
Another alternative would be Javadoc / doxygen / ... style comments
(say #@ introduces a comment to be extracted).
Yuk. More magic to remember. Me hate.
What magic? The program that does the documentation isn't going to be
called
On Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 12:41:50AM +0300, Ariel Scolnicov wrote:
Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[...]
Another alternative would be Javadoc / doxygen / ... style comments
(say #@ introduces a comment to be extracted).
Yuk. More magic to remember. Me hate.
What
please move this thread to the mlc list.
thanx,
uri
--
Uri Guttman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.sysarch.com
SYStems ARCHitecture, Software Engineering, Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
The Perl Books Page --- http://www.sysarch.com/cgi-bin/perl_books
The
Michael Mathews [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jonathan Scott Duff said
Status: tabled # shelved, put away for now
Please avoid 'tabled' - it means near the opposite in the UK.
To table something is to put it "on the table" i.e. open for discussion.
--
Nick Ing-Simmons
Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 12:41:50AM +0300, Ariel Scolnicov wrote:
[...]
Have you looked at the documentation that SWIG auto-generates?
Nope. Can you give a quick summary?
SWIG is a tool for interfacing C (and C++ and Fortran and ...) code to
John Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Michael Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
use typing; # place your fingers on the home row..
my integer $quux = 4;
I believe that would have to be
integer my $quux = 4;
at least in perl5...
Well Larry has been using
my Dog $spot;
for a
Nathan Wiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I have retained the title of "Lexical variables made default,"
because I still feel that that is the primary purpose of this change
First off, I think this is a great idea in principle. However, I don't
think it goes nearly far enough in the
@u = [..];# @a contains the univeral set
works just fine, so I can then say:
@i = grep {$_=abs($_)} @u;# @i contains the integers
# See higher-order function and multi-way comparison RFCs
$s = sum (grep 0__=100 @i);
print "The sum of the 1st 100 integers is: $s";
Oops, a
Jeremy Howard wrote:
Make sure you read the interesting RFCs from Damian Conway on related
issues:
* Built-ins: min() and max() functions and acceptors
* Built-ins: reduce() function
Couldn't see these.
* Data structures: Semi-finite (lazy) lists
* Subroutines: higher order
Jeremy Howard wrote:
@u = [..];# @a contains the univeral set
works just fine, so I can then say:
@i = grep {$_=abs($_)} @u;# @i contains the integers
# See higher-order function and multi-way comparison RFCs
$s = sum (grep 0__=100 @i);
print "The sum of the 1st
It is proposed that Perl reserve the bareword C__
(underscore-underscore)
as a "placeholder" for generating higher order functions more cleanly.
But what if I want to say:
@n = (0.2, 1, 3.5, 4);
@integersInN = grep __=abs(__) @n; # @intsInN is empty!
Instead I would need:
@integersInN =
Oops, a correction. [..] should mean 'the set of all integers'. _Not_
the
univeral set. So my code snippet should be:
@i = [..];# @i contains the integers
$s = sum (grep 0__=100 @i);
print "The sum of the 1st 100 integers is: $s";
I still think it would be cool to be able
Oops, a correction. [..] should mean 'the set of all integers'. _Not_ the
univeral set. So my code snippet should be:
@i = [..];# @i contains the integers
$s = sum (grep 0__=100 @i);
print "The sum of the 1st 100 integers is: $s";
Oh dear, another correction! I meant, of course:
* Built-ins: min() and max() functions and acceptors
* Built-ins: reduce() function
* Subroutines: lazy evaluation of argument lists
* Superpositions: vector operations via superpositions
Couldn't see those either. Could you refer to the actual RFC #s, please?
As I
On Sun, 6 Aug 2000, Jeremy Howard wrote:
* Built-ins: min() and max() functions and acceptors
* Built-ins: reduce() function
* Subroutines: lazy evaluation of argument lists
* Superpositions: vector operations via superpositions
Couldn't see those either. Could
I don't want to join the discussion in general, and I'm not on the
language list. So this is a one-shot manifesto.
I agree with the goal of RFC17:
Organization and Rationalization of Perl State Variables
but I think the implementation ideas are making a terrible mistake.
Summary of manifesto: Global variables must be expunged.
Replacing the old rotten global variables with new rotten global
variables is not enough of an improvement.
Hurrah! clap clap clap stomp stomp stomp hats state="flying
(Same goes for package variables: $File::Find::name, anyone?
Edwin Wiles wrote:
Without them, the programmer must calculate the required length of the reads
themselves.
Good point. I now want them, rather than being ambivalent.
[ 'bar' = 'i', 'baz' = 'i', 'count' = 'i' ]
It is my understanding that "=" is an indication of a link in a hash
guard
protect
Hmm, 'guard' is just as long as 'local'.
chaim
"JSD" == Jonathan Scott Duff [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JSD More words:
JSDstore() # put away for the duration of the scope
JSDtuck() # Now I lay me down to sleep
JSDhide()
=head1 TITLE
Positional Return Lists Considered Harmful
The solution is simple: return hashes instead of lists. Yes, one
still has to know how the fields are named, so the proposed solution
is still not perfect.
I *fully* support this idea. A suggestion though:
How about adding a new keyword, hmm, 'yield'. :-)
if ( grep yield $x==$_, (1,2,3) ) ...
chaim
"DC" == Damian Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Oh, the table thing. The switch statement is useful without learning the
complete table so I don't think complexity is a big problem. People
I'm not sure it makes sense, I'd really like to get rid of the last
propogating out of a sub. (or a grep/map).
But if that doesn't fly, we do have Damian's new yield keyword
available to do it.
chaim
"JH" == Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JH I think we need a general way of
On Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 09:14:49PM -, Perl6 RFC Librarian wrote:
=head1 TITLE
Request For New Pragma: Shell
Pragmas have lower case names by convention, so this should be "use
shell".
K.
--
Kirrily Robert -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://netizen.com.au/
Open Source development, consulting
"SC" == Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
SC On Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:47:47PM +1000, Jeremy Howard wrote:
I feel that your RFC misses the inclusive nature of perl.
SC Then I withdraw it. Perl should not stay Perl, fuck it. Call me when it's
SC time to get coding.
I think you missed
"DC" == Damian Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
DC I very much like Icon's failure model, but I was loathe to try and
DC graft it wholesale onto Perl 6. Doing it properly would require a
DC substantial rethink of the exception mechanism, flow control, the
DC nature of scalars, undef, etc., etc.
"s" == skud [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
s On Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 10:13:59PM -, Perl6 RFC Librarian wrote:
=head1 IMPLEMENTATION
Remove the file-globbing behavior of the angle brackets.
s How about "Deprecate use of file globbing with angle brackets. Emit a
s warning when this
I thought the WG sublists creation was a recursive definition.
I can see a discussion with the chair(uplevel) for guidance, but the
working groups should be left to their own devices. They should only
be responsible to return their final document. Otherwise treat it
as a black box.
chaim
"s"
I think there are two problems. One is the naming convention, the
second, the global effects.
Why not split them. The names could be improved.
And the global nature (of the name) abolished.
So $^W becomes $Perl::Warnings and only has a local scope effect?
One would use whatever mechanism
At 01:21 AM 8/6/00 -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
I think there are two problems. One is the naming convention, the
second, the global effects.
Why not split them. The names could be improved.
And the global nature (of the name) abolished.
I'm not entirely sure that tossing the global nature of
At 12:58 PM 8/5/00 -0700, Peter Scott wrote:
Another one for my wish list: deep copying support built in. A devil
inside me thinks this should be a new assignment
operator. Damian? Sounds like this is up your alley. I want to do a
sanity check before taking up RFC space.
Regardless of how
WORKING GROUP: perl6-language-flow
CHAIR: uri guttman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MISSION: Draft, discuss, and revise RFCs relating to flow control
in Perl 6, eg switch/case, looping, etc. Suggest/request
other flowcontrol-related lists if appropriate
This and other RFCs are available on the web at
http://dev.perl.org/rfc/
=head1 TITLE
Filehandles should use C* as a type prefix if typeglobs are eliminated.
=head1 VERSION
Maintainer: Peter Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 5 Aug 2000
Version: 3
Mailing List: [EMAIL
This and other RFCs are available on the web at
http://tmtowtdi.perl.org/rfc/
=head1 TITLE
Request For New Pragma: Implicit
=head1 VERSION
Maintainer: Bryan C. Warnock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 5 Aug 2000
Version: 2
Mailing List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Number: 41
=head1
This and other RFCs are available on the web at
http://tmtowtdi.perl.org/rfc/
=head1 TITLE
Positional Return Lists Considered Harmful
=head1 VERSION
Maintainer: Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 05 Aug 2000
Version: 2
Mailing List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Number: 37
=head1
The solution is simple: return hashes instead of lists.
I still think returning lists *or* hashrefs according to context gives
the same benefits *plus* backwards compatibility.
Damian
This and other RFCs are available on the web at
http://tmtowtdi.perl.org/rfc/
=head1 TITLE
Bring Documentation Closer To Whatever It Documents
=head1 VERSION
Maintainer: Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 05 Aug 2000
Version: 1
Mailing List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Number: 44
This and other RFCs are available on the web at
http://dev.perl.org/rfc/
=head1 TITLE
Request For New Pragma: Shell
=head1 VERSION
Maintainer: Bryan C. Warnock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 5 Aug 2000
Version: 1
Mailing List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Number: 42
=head1 ABSTRACT
Perl
This and other RFCs are available on the web at
http://dev.perl.org/rfc/
=head1 TITLE
|| should propagate result context to both sides.
=head1 VERSION
Maintainer: Peter Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 5 Aug 2000
Version: 1
Mailing List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Number: 45
In the roadmap, there's lot of actions and shamelines as spoken of in the
camel herders association meeting. What was also talked about there, was an
early release of perl6 to the active CPAN authors, so they would be able to
try and implement the new language for their modules.
I cannot find
Probably not with tie, but with function calls in general, sure. We can do
some flow control analysis on the subs and propagate it outwards so we
might know, for example, that:
sub foo {
my (@vars) = @_;
return scalar @vars;
}
doesn't change its args or any globals, so
At 11:40 AM 8/5/00 +, Nick Ing-Simmons wrote:
Damian Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It definitely is, since formats do things that can't be done in
modules.
Such as???
Quite.
Even in perl5 an XS module can do _anything at all_.
It can't access data the lexer's already tossed
At 06:04 PM 8/5/00 +0200, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
In the roadmap, there's lot of actions and shamelines as spoken of in the
camel herders association meeting. What was also talked about there, was an
early release of perl6 to the active CPAN authors, so they would be able to
try and implement the
Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 01:17 PM 8/4/00 +0500, Tom Scola wrote:
[I think this belongs on the language list, FWIW, Cc'd there]
I like this, but I'd like to see this, inter-thread queues, and events
all
use the same communication method. Overload filehandles to pass events
At 09:45 AM 8/5/00 -0700, Nathan Wiger wrote:
Probably not with tie, but with function calls in general, sure. We can do
some flow control analysis on the subs and propagate it outwards so we
might know, for example, that:
sub foo {
my (@vars) = @_;
return scalar @vars;
Jeremy Howard wrote:
New programmers should easily understand that:
- $foo is the variable 'foo'
- _foo is the placeholder 'foo'
- $_ is the default variable
- __ is the default placeholder.
Then, when they see the same named placeholder appear twice in the same
higher-order
85 matches
Mail list logo
