FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
[Rod == [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:10:34 -0500] Jared I haven't yet seen an example presented where using a Unicode Jared operator would save keystrokes, for instance. Rod That depends entirely on how you plan to generate them. If you Rod are relying on a special command in your editor of choice, yes, Rod the ASCII equiv is fewer keystrokes. If, however, you remap your Rod keyboard (easily doable in X and Win32, I'd assume Macs can as Rod well), then the common Unicode characters are an AltGr Rod away. Thus, « one shifted keystroke (AltGr-[), is two shifted Rod keystrokes (Shift-, Shift-,). Ok. A reasonable point that hasn't been made yet in this multi-month discussion. It'll never actually save me characters, however; the most I'll achieve is parity. I'll be more likely to remap MyMod- to the macro '' than that similar-looking Unicodey character I don't know (or care) how to make yet. And MyMod-Y to expand to 'zip', not Unicode Yen. Presumably, the argument for Unicode operators needs to (and does) go deeper than saving keystrokes. TIMTOWTDI is the best argument I've seen thus far, with this little keyboard remapping discussion as an excellent example. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] One cannot mark the point without marking the path.
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
On Sun, Jun 13, 2004 at 03:40:27AM +0200, Pedro Larroy wrote: What advantages have to use characters not in standard keyboards? Isn't it a little scary? Well, what do you consider a 'standard' keyboard? The zip operator/Yen sign probably appears on most keyboards in Japan, but on very few in the US. My US keyboard gives me no convenient way to type a 'u with umlaut' character, but I'm sure that my friend Roland, who lives in Switzerland, has no such limitation. Like it or not, Unicode is the way of the future. Life really and truly will be easier once that becomes the default assumption; keyboard makers will start putting thought into how to provide easy access to normally-unused-in-this-locale characters, software will have to make it easy to work with foreign character sets, your terminal will not give you grief about displaying foreign characters, etc. But it's kind of a chicken-and-egg problem. If the characters are never used, we don't need to worry about them--except when we do. So, by making them more commonly used, we help bring about the day when we don't need to worry about them. And if you aren't ready to worry about them yet, I believe they all have ASCII equivalents (e.g., , , and zip). All the best, --Dks
FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
[Pedro == [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sun, 13 Jun 2004 03:40:27 +0200] Pedro What advantages have to use characters not in standard Pedro keyboards? Flexibility. Stylistic choice. There is More Than One Way To Do It. Power. Expressiveness. Everything that makes Perl good. Pedro Isn't it a little scary? Yes, very. Great phrasing. Scary enough that this same question will continue to be asked over and over and over. You're not the only one afraid, believe me. The unicode operator issue boils down to even if you can't picture using it yourself, there are lots of people who can find good uses for it. And they should be allowed to do so if they wish. It's extremely unlikely I personally will use Unicode operators in my code. I haven't yet seen an example presented where using a Unicode operator would save keystrokes, for instance. And it will likely be easier for me to remember the long ASCII versions of any short Unicode operators. But it would be selfish and shortsighted to try to force that choice onto everyone. Yes, fragmentation may occur. You may occasionally get P6 code that was written with a Unicode operator or two. You may have to pipe the code through a standard p6unicode2p6ascii program to read and/or edit it properly. But realistically, it's likely the community is unlikely to use them widely and the defacto standard in public code will be to stick with ASCII. If that doesn't happen, it will be a good sign that there was actually great pent-up demand for Unicode operators and people are glad they are around. The only thing we have to fear (from the mere availability of Unicode operators) is fear itself. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] One cannot mark the point without marking the path.
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Jared Rhine wrote: I haven't yet seen an example presented where using a Unicode operator would save keystrokes, for instance. That depends entirely on how you plan to generate them. If you are relying on a special command in your editor of choice, yes, the ASCII equiv is fewer keystrokes. If, however, you remap your keyboard (easily doable in X and Win32, I'd assume Macs can as well), then the common Unicode characters are an AltGr away. Thus, « one shifted keystroke (AltGr-[), is two shifted keystrokes (Shift-, Shift-,). -- Rod Adams
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
On Sun, May 30, 2004 at 03:33:34PM +, Smylers wrote: Gabriel Ebner writes: Joe Gottman wrote: The zip operator is now the Yen sign (¥). How are those without a US keyboard supposed to type this? Probably the same way as those with US keyboards do -- US keyboards don't have a yen symbol on them either. In 'Vim' I got lucky in guessing it first time as Ctrl+K Y e. On Windows you can probably press Alt Gr then type in some number. Or pick it from the character map utility. Or keep Joe's mail handy so that you can copy and paste it whenever you need it. Or spell it out as zip and not use the operator form ... Smylers What advantages have to use characters not in standard keyboards? Isn't it a little scary? Regards. -- Pedro Larroy Tovar | Linux Network consultant | piotr%member.fsf.org Software patents are a threat to innovation in Europe please check: http://www.eurolinux.org/
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 10:52:32PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: My console can be any of several platforms - in the last couple of weeks it has been a Linux box, a Windows PC, a Mac, a Sun workstation, and a real vt320 attached to a Sun. My mail sits on a hosted Linux box. To read it, I sometimes ssh in to the machine and read it using mutt in screen. At other times I read it using Mozilla Thunderbird over IMAP. In Thunderbird, the odd characters show up. But when I'm using a terminal session, I have found that the only practical way of getting consistent behaviour wherever I am is to use TERM=vt100. Windows is, of course, the main culprit in forcing me to vt100 emulation. I can recommend PuTTY for windows. Secure, small[1], fast, featureful and free: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ I'm using it now to ssh from a windows laptop to read email using mutt in screen. Tim. [1] So small it easily fits on a floppy. I keep a copy on my USB memory drive.
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 11:30:51AM +0100, Tim Bunce wrote: On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 10:52:32PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: But when I'm using a terminal session, I have found that the only practical way of getting consistent behaviour wherever I am is to use TERM=vt100. Windows is, of course, the main culprit in forcing me to vt100 emulation. I can recommend PuTTY for windows. Secure, small[1], fast, featureful and free: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ I'm using it now to ssh from a windows laptop to read email using mutt in screen. I can get it working with a Windows client, or a Mac client, or a $other_client, but I could never find any combination of voodoo that would work with *all* clients, so that I can disconnect (while leaving mutt running) then reconnect some random time later on some other platform and have it Just Work and have odd characters show up correctly. TERM=vt100 was the only way to get consistent results. Yes, I tried putty. I also tried cygwin/xfree86/xterm/openssh, to no avail. -- Lord Protector David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Lefties are usually well-intentioned at least, and possess a far greater command of grammar and spelling. -- Noel, in soc.history.what-if
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Tim Bunce skribis 2004-06-08 11:30 (+0100): I can recommend PuTTY for windows. Secure, small[1], fast, featureful and free: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ [1] So small it easily fits on a floppy. I keep a copy on my USB memory drive. So small that even on modem lines, you can afford to download it each time you start it: http://startputty.com/ - if you trust them. Juerd
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 04:21:14PM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote: Since you've added ? and ? to the list above, I'll add them as well: What's so hard to type about the question mark? And what's so significant that you added it twice? OK, so I know that you really meant to type some bizarre character and some other bizarre character. This is what is so wrong about allowing unicode operators - yes, I don't need to write them, but if some other programmer writes one I have to be able to read it. And I can't. -- David Cantrell | Reprobate | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life -- Samuel Johnson
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
On 2004-06-07 at 21:33:03, David Cantrell wrote: This is what is so wrong about allowing unicode operators - yes, I don't need to write them, but if some other programmer writes one I have to be able to read it. And I can't. Well, for one thing, just because your email program doesn't let you display them, that doesn't mean you can't see them in your text editor. If I sent you a Perl program as an attachment I'm sure the bizarre characters would come through fine. And for another thing, what bizarre email system are you using that in 2004 can't even handle Latin-1? It's not like they were something from way out in Unicodespace, nor was the message UTF8-encoded; just plain old, garden variety, 8-bpc ISO-8859-1. They were, incidentally, the guillemets; « = left-pointing () and » = right-pointing (). -Mark
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Mark J. Reed wrote: On 2004-06-07 at 21:33:03, David Cantrell wrote: This is what is so wrong about allowing unicode operators - yes, I don't need to write them, but if some other programmer writes one I have to be able to read it. And I can't. Well, for one thing, just because your email program doesn't let you display them, that doesn't mean you can't see them in your text editor. If I sent you a Perl program as an attachment I'm sure the bizarre characters would come through fine. The data in the file would, of course, be preserved, but that doesn't mean I could read it. Like when I was writing my earlier mail. And for another thing, what bizarre email system are you using that in 2004 can't even handle Latin-1? My console can be any of several platforms - in the last couple of weeks it has been a Linux box, a Windows PC, a Mac, a Sun workstation, and a real vt320 attached to a Sun. My mail sits on a hosted Linux box. To read it, I sometimes ssh in to the machine and read it using mutt in screen. At other times I read it using Mozilla Thunderbird over IMAP. In Thunderbird, the odd characters show up. But when I'm using a terminal session, I have found that the only practical way of getting consistent behaviour wherever I am is to use TERM=vt100. Windows is, of course, the main culprit in forcing me to vt100 emulation. -- David Cantrell | Failed to find witty sig
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
How are those without a US keyboard supposed to type this? I assume you mean with a US keyboard? US keyboards don't have ¥. You can use zip if you want ASCII. Otherwise, it depends. But Yen is Unicode codepoint U+00A5 = 165 decimal, so you can type it in Windows as ALT + numpad 0165 even without any international keyboard layout. If you use vim, then you can use control-V (control-Q on Windows) 1 6 5 (or u 0 0 a 5), or the Ye digraph (control-K Y e, or, if you have the digraph option set, Ybackspacee). -Mark
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
On Sat, 2004-05-29 at 19:04, Gabriel Ebner wrote: Hello, Joe Gottman wrote: The zip operator is now the Yen sign (¥). How are those without a US keyboard supposed to type this? Well, first off my US keyboard doesn't contain it. Second, you're not supposed to. ¥ is a shorthand for zip, and if you don't want to use the funky one-character operator, just use the afunked three-character one. -- Aaron Sherman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer and Toolsmith It's the sound of a satellite saying, 'get me down!' -Shriekback
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Hello, Mark J. Reed wrote: I assume you mean with a US keyboard? US keyboards don't have . Oops, must have mistakenly picked an US-International chart, sorry. Gabriel. -- Gabriel Ebner - reverse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Hello, Aaron Sherman wrote: Well, first off my US keyboard doesn't contain it. Sorry, mistakenly picked an US-International chart. Second, you're not supposed to. So why has it been chosen then? is a shorthand for zip, Good to know. and if you don't want to use the funky one-character operator, Would I complain if didn't want to? just use the afunked three-character one. Or just use vim as many (helpful) posts noted. Gabriel. -- Gabriel Ebner - reverse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Or for the few Perl emacs people out there: C-x 8 Y C-x 8 C-x 8 Paul On Tuesday 01 June 2004 10:27 am, Gabriel Ebner wrote: Hello, Aaron Sherman wrote: Well, first off my US keyboard doesn't contain it. Sorry, mistakenly picked an US-International chart. Second, you're not supposed to. So why has it been chosen then? is a shorthand for zip, Good to know. and if you don't want to use the funky one-character operator, Would I complain if didn't want to? just use the afunked three-character one. Or just use vim as many (helpful) posts noted. Gabriel.
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
On 2004-06-01 at 14:10:08, Paul Seamons wrote: Or for the few Perl emacs people out there: C-x 8 Y C-x 8 C-x 8 I suspect there are more than a few. I don't think there's anything constitutional about folks who like Emacs that prevents them from liking Perl or vice-versa. Even though (e)lisp is about as orthogonal as you can get and therefore something of a philosophical opposite to Perl. :) Since you've added « and » to the list above, I'll add them as well: CodepointDecimalVim Digraph « U+00AB 171 » U+00B1 177 Details again: you can always enter chars into Windows by holding down the ALT key and typing 0 plus the decimal code point on the numeric keypad, or into Vim by hitting control-V (control-Q in vim on Windows, since control-V is Paste) followed by either the decimal code point (no leading 0) or the letter u plus the hexadecimal code point. Vim digraphs are entered via control-K plus the two characters, or by setting the 'digraph' option and then typing the two characters separated by a backspace. -Mark
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Hello, Joe Gottman wrote: The zip operator is now the Yen sign (). How are those without a US keyboard supposed to type this? Gabriel. -- Gabriel Ebner - reverse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
It probably depends on what nationality that keyboard is for. If its Japanese, you probably won't have a problem ;-). But for the rest of us, use Vi and ctrl-KYe (or spacezipspace). Dave. Gabriel Ebner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, Joe Gottman wrote: The zip operator is now the Yen sign (¥). How are those without a US keyboard supposed to type this? Gabriel. -- Gabriel Ebner - reverse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Gabriel Ebner writes: Joe Gottman wrote: The zip operator is now the Yen sign (¥). How are those without a US keyboard supposed to type this? Probably the same way as those with US keyboards do -- US keyboards don't have a yen symbol on them either. In 'Vim' I got lucky in guessing it first time as Ctrl+K Y e. On Windows you can probably press Alt Gr then type in some number. Or pick it from the character map utility. Or keep Joe's mail handy so that you can copy and paste it whenever you need it. Or spell it out as zip and not use the operator form ... Smylers
Re: FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
Smylers wrote: Gabriel Ebner writes: Joe Gottman wrote: The zip operator is now the Yen sign (¥). How are those without a US keyboard supposed to type this? On Windows you can probably press Alt Gr then type in some number. Close. AltGr-Minus. If you're using the US-International layout that ships w/ Windows. -- Rod
FW: Periodic Table of the Operators
-Original Message- From: Mark Lentczner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 7:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Periodic Table of the Operators Not to beat a dead horse, but I've updated the Periodic table with almost all the changes that people here sent me, as well as reading a few more threads and references. This will be the last update for some time The zip operator is now the Yen sign (¥). Joe Gottman
