Re: [PersianComputing] Persian input with US/European keyboard
As a new member of this List, I find all the x-posting cc'ing a bit confusing. Isn't it simpler if all postings go to PersianComputing? Makes replying a lot easier too! Re Roozbeh Pournader's message of 12 Jun 2003: ... We tried to look at the Turkish language reform independent of its cultural and political aspects, but only linguistically. He had a notion that the word Meem-Heh-Meem-Dal had somehow become an ideograph in the Muslim countries, written the same way from Turkey to Indonesia, but pronounced in at least five or six completely different ways (Turks pronounce it as Mehmet for example). Only as a personal name. The Prophet's name is pronounced Muhammed. He was mentioning that the Turks did the script switch and the standardization of the pronunciation of the language at the same time. I don't think the pron. of Turkish has been standardized, exactly. It's just that the orthography reflects educated Istanbul/Ankara speech. Nigel ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] New keyboard layout for Windows
Using Microsoft's new keyboard creation tool, we created a keyboard layout based on the latest committee draft for the future national Iranian keyboard layout. You can download it at: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/farsitools/persiankeyboard.zip?download Important Note: This only works for Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003. More Important Note: Please provide feedback, if you have any. Otherwise this may become a national standard and then suddenly you may start to nag ;-) Installation Instructions = 1. Download the ZIP file, and unpack it. 2. Go to the directory where you have unpacked the ZIP file, and double-click the file called 'Persian.msi' (or right-click on it and choose 'Install'). Follow the instructions. 3. Go to the keyboard layouts section of your Control Panel, and choose the Farsi layout to edit. In the small Windows that pops up, choose Farsi in the first dropdown dialog, and Persian experimental layout in the second. Press OK a few times. The new Persian layout should now replace the old MS layout. Known bugs == 1. Shift-Space doesn't work. You should use Shift+B for inserting Zero Width Non-Joiner. 2. This is a Windows feature: Ctrl+Shift will act like AltGr/right Alt. If you have shortcut keys assigned to them, they may start to act in a weird way. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] Re: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Oops! 2. This is a Windows feature: Ctrl+Shift will act like AltGr/right Alt. If you have shortcut keys assigned to them, they may start to act in a weird way. The truth is Ctrl+Alt act as AltGr (right Alt). -- Behnam Esfahbod ..[ http://esfahbod.info | behnam(a)esfahbod.info ] ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] Persian input with US/Europeankeyboard
Title: Message Hi, I tried your demo at http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/fdemo_online.htm and found that some of the substitution rules you use are problematic (e.g., in the beginning of a new line, "oftad" generates and NOT ; in front of certain punctuation marks, "do" generates and NOT ); what's more, punctuation in LTR (Latin) insert mode does not work properly -- it always follows RTL rules! Also, there are a number of *free* phonetic keyboards for Farsi and other RTL languages that work nicely under Word or other wordprocessors. (There are even solutions for Win98 or Word97, using the so-called Arabic presentation forms, but this is an approach I would not recommend.) Best regards, Peter E. Hauer Linguaosft Vienna, Austria -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nigel GreenwoodSent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:37 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [farsiweb] Persian input with US/European keyboard Connie Bobroff of Wahington University has kindly suggested that I bring our ScriptMaster software products PerScript and PerScribe to the attention of list members who would like to type Farsi using a US/European OS. For most users, particularly those with Windows XP or Windows 2000, **PerScript** is more appropriate. It allows you to type (more or less!) phonetically right-to-left in a text box. The [Unicode] Persian text can then be saved as HTML or, if your system has Farsi-language support, pasted into Word for further processing. For more details and an online demo, please see: http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/perscript.htm If you are running Windows 98 you can still use PerScript to generate HTML -- but you won't be able to use Word (for example, Word 97) for further processing. If you really want to produce a Persian document in Word you will have to use our other product, **PerScribe**, which is a bit more complicated and in effect "tricks" Word into displaying Persian correctly. The .doc file will print out correctly, but may look strange if viewed with a WXP/W2K system. For details, please see: http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/perscribe.htm I would be happy to answer any questions about these programs. Nigel ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Dear Roozbeh, Thanks for your efforts to provide us with an experimental version of the new standard keyboard layout for Persian ! I tried the keyboard in Word2000/Win2000, using Arial Unicode MS which displays all glyphs that can be generated via the keyboard except Riyal sign and Subscript alef. I am not quite sure in which context standalone versions of maddah, hamzah above and hamzah below are used, but assume they are there because they are in the Unicode standard. Standard shortcuts of Word for C, R, and T also work with the Persian keyboard. What does not work is Word's AutoCorrect option for smart quotes, i.e. neither quotation mark (U+0022) nor apostrophe (U+0027) are converted into their smart equivalents; I wonder if this feature is keyboard-(dll)-related but if it is, I suggest to implement it as well as many users, especially in bilingual context, may want to use typographically correct English quotation marks. How would you input ZSNJ, and RTL/LTR markers with the new keyboard? (These special characters aren't mentioned in keyboard.png as well.) I also wonder whether there is any accepted standard to show alef maqsura on keytops. In keyboard.png, you use an initial shape of ya without dots which may be misleading; how about using isolated ya without dots but with a superscript alef (I remember this was a keytop inscription on a keyboard for an Arabic/Persian typesetting machine that I use many years ago...) Are there any decisions as to support other regional languages such as Kurdish or Azeri? If the ultimate goal is to support several languages using an extended Arabic glyphset via one and the same keyboard, my feeling is that some Shift or Alt key positions may have better been reserved for special characters of these languages, or defined as deadkeys to create certain accented characters (as in case of the US International keyboard). Best regards, Peter E. Hauer Linguasoft Vienna, Austria -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roozbeh Pournader Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:56 PM To: The FarsiWeb Mailing List; Persian Computing list Subject: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows Using Microsoft's new keyboard creation tool, we created a keyboard layout based on the latest committee draft for the future national Iranian keyboard layout. You can download it at: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/farsitools/persiankeyboard.zip?downlo ad Important Note: This only works for Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003. More Important Note: Please provide feedback, if you have any. Otherwise this may become a national standard and then suddenly you may start to nag ;-) Installation Instructions = 1. Download the ZIP file, and unpack it. 2. Go to the directory where you have unpacked the ZIP file, and double-click the file called 'Persian.msi' (or right-click on it and choose 'Install'). Follow the instructions. 3. Go to the keyboard layouts section of your Control Panel, and choose the Farsi layout to edit. In the small Windows that pops up, choose Farsi in the first dropdown dialog, and Persian experimental layout in the second. Press OK a few times. The new Persian layout should now replace the old MS layout. Known bugs == 1. Shift-Space doesn't work. You should use Shift+B for inserting Zero Width Non-Joiner. 2. This is a Windows feature: Ctrl+Shift will act like AltGr/right Alt. If you have shortcut keys assigned to them, they may start to act in a weird way. ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] Persian input with US/Europeankeyboard
Title: Message
Hi,When typing "o", substitution
of waw with hamzah (for alef) happens after using Backspace or Ctrl-Alt and then
Del, for example when clearing a line or the entire document in the test window,
and then typing a word beginning with "o"."Punctuation" I referred to
includes the symbols you mentioned but also normal parentheses (as well as
numerals). I found that a trick to remove the unwanted hamzah on waw is to type
a hyphen (=pseudo-space) after this letter, but that's maybe a bit too clumsy
and definitely not Unicode-compliant ...BTW, if you say that you support
input with a US or European keyboard, you should also reverse glyphs for
left/right parentheses, brackets, and so forth. (Using the left parenthesis key
for "opening parenthesis" and the left parenthesis key for "closing parenthesis"
may be logical when dealing with so-called "weak" characters in RTL context but
is misleading as the shapes you get are different from the shapes you
type.)Best regards,Peter
-Original Message-From: Nigel Greenwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent:
Thursday, June 12, 2003 3:51 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [farsiweb]
Persian input with US/European keyboardRe Peter E. Hauer's message
of 12 Jun 2003:Many thanks for your patient testing
feedback. I tried your demo at http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/fdemo_online.htm
and found that some of the substitution rules you use are problematic
(e.g., in the beginning of a new line, "oftad" generates ? and NOT
? ;I can't replicate this, I'm afraid. in front of
certain punctuation marks, "do" generates ?? and NOT ??);Could you
please specify which punct. marks? Ah yes, you must meanthings like
{}/. We'll look into that. what's more, punctuation in
LTR (Latin) insert mode does not work properly -- it always follows RTL
rules!This is true. The Latin feature is intended mainly for the
occasional word,title or place name -- but I agree the punctuation should be
correct ifpossible.Nigel
___
PersianComputing mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Standard shortcuts of Word for C, R, and T refers to copyright, registered, and trademark signs ... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Linguasoft Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 4:25 PM To: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'The FarsiWeb Mailing List'; 'Persian Computing list' Subject: RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows Dear Roozbeh, Thanks for your efforts to provide us with an experimental version of the new standard keyboard layout for Persian ! I tried the keyboard in Word2000/Win2000, using Arial Unicode MS which displays all glyphs that can be generated via the keyboard except Riyal sign and Subscript alef. I am not quite sure in which context standalone versions of maddah, hamzah above and hamzah below are used, but assume they are there because they are in the Unicode standard. Standard shortcuts of Word for C, R, and T also work with the Persian keyboard. What does not work is Word's AutoCorrect option for smart quotes, i.e. neither quotation mark (U+0022) nor apostrophe (U+0027) are converted into their smart equivalents; I wonder if this feature is keyboard-(dll)-related but if it is, I suggest to implement it as well as many users, especially in bilingual context, may want to use typographically correct English quotation marks. How would you input ZSNJ, and RTL/LTR markers with the new keyboard? (These special characters aren't mentioned in keyboard.png as well.) I also wonder whether there is any accepted standard to show alef maqsura on keytops. In keyboard.png, you use an initial shape of ya without dots which may be misleading; how about using isolated ya without dots but with a superscript alef (I remember this was a keytop inscription on a keyboard for an Arabic/Persian typesetting machine that I use many years ago...) Are there any decisions as to support other regional languages such as Kurdish or Azeri? If the ultimate goal is to support several languages using an extended Arabic glyphset via one and the same keyboard, my feeling is that some Shift or Alt key positions may have better been reserved for special characters of these languages, or defined as deadkeys to create certain accented characters (as in case of the US International keyboard). Best regards, Peter E. Hauer Linguasoft Vienna, Austria -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roozbeh Pournader Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:56 PM To: The FarsiWeb Mailing List; Persian Computing list Subject: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows Using Microsoft's new keyboard creation tool, we created a keyboard layout based on the latest committee draft for the future national Iranian keyboard layout. You can download it at: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/farsitools/persiankeyboard.zip?downlo ad Important Note: This only works for Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Windows Server 2003. More Important Note: Please provide feedback, if you have any. Otherwise this may become a national standard and then suddenly you may start to nag ;-) Installation Instructions = 1. Download the ZIP file, and unpack it. 2. Go to the directory where you have unpacked the ZIP file, and double-click the file called 'Persian.msi' (or right-click on it and choose 'Install'). Follow the instructions. 3. Go to the keyboard layouts section of your Control Panel, and choose the Farsi layout to edit. In the small Windows that pops up, choose Farsi in the first dropdown dialog, and Persian experimental layout in the second. Press OK a few times. The new Persian layout should now replace the old MS layout. Known bugs == 1. Shift-Space doesn't work. You should use Shift+B for inserting Zero Width Non-Joiner. 2. This is a Windows feature: Ctrl+Shift will act like AltGr/right Alt. If you have shortcut keys assigned to them, they may start to act in a weird way. ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Linguasoft wrote: Thanks for your efforts to provide us with an experimental version of the new standard keyboard layout for Persian ! You're welcome Peter. But please don't propagate it much, since that may be changed. I tried the keyboard in Word2000/Win2000, using Arial Unicode MS which displays all glyphs that can be generated via the keyboard except Riyal sign and Subscript alef. Rial sign is Unicode 3.2. Subscript Alef is Unicode 4.0. Microsoft has not enough time to implement them for you. I am not quite sure in which context standalone versions of maddah, hamzah above and hamzah below are used, but assume they are there because they are in the Unicode standard. They are not the standalone ones. These are *combining* Maddah, Hamza Above, and Hamza Below. But since these were only encoded in Unicode 3.0, and Windows/Office 2000 only handles pre-2.1 characters properly, they appear as standalones ones to you. Try the keyboard with SC Unipad, for example, and you'll see. Standard shortcuts of Word for C, R, and T also work with the Persian keyboard. Interesting news. I didn't know about them at all. What does not work is Word's AutoCorrect option for smart quotes, i.e. neither quotation mark (U+0022) nor apostrophe (U+0027) are converted into their smart equivalents; I wonder if this feature is keyboard-(dll)-related but if it is, I suggest to implement it as well as many users, especially in bilingual context, may want to use typographically correct English quotation marks. We have no clue how to fix that even if that is a desired effect. For me, that would be undesired. The quotation mark and the apostrophe (and a few others) were only added to help manual entry of rich text (like TeX, XML, and HTML) in a text editor without having the need to switch the layout very often. How would you input ZSNJ, and RTL/LTR markers with the new keyboard? (These special characters aren't mentioned in keyboard.png as well.) What is ZSNJ? If you mean ZWNJ, it is Shift+B. I also don't know what you mean by RTL and LTR markers. If you mean the Bidirectional control characters, they are at AltGr+9,0,I,O,P,[,]. I also wonder whether there is any accepted standard to show alef maqsura on keytops. In keyboard.png, you use an initial shape of ya without dots which may be misleading; how about using isolated ya without dots but with a superscript alef (I remember this was a keytop inscription on a keyboard for an Arabic/Persian typesetting machine that I use many years ago...) In a Persian context, you should only use Alef Maksura (a.k.a the dotless Arabic Yeh) only in initial and medial form. This is required when one needs to type a few Koranic quotes. An isolated Yeh without dots with a superscript Alef over it should be typed using the Persian Yeh and then a superscript Alef (D, Shift-V). Are there any decisions as to support other regional languages such as Kurdish or Azeri? The general attitude in the commitee is to support those languages if enough information is provided. We need to know about the exact list of characters each need, and their estimated frequency/importance. If the ultimate goal is to support several languages using an extended Arabic glyphset via one and the same keyboard, my feeling is that some Shift or Alt key positions may have better been reserved for special characters of these languages, or defined as deadkeys to create certain accented characters (as in case of the US International keyboard). We are not trying an extended Arabic set. But we'd love a layout that is able to support all major minority languages of Iran, although optimized for Persian. We may even try to create layouts optimized for them if we can find the expertise. But we are not interested in Pashto, Sindhi, or Urdu at all, while we are very interested in Azeri, Kurdish, Baluchi, ... roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, C Bobroff wrote: In a textbook, you might want to say, This here is a maddah. In the past, I wanted to show what a superscript alif compared to fatha looks like and was not able to You should put them either over a space, or a Tatweel (U+0640, the base line extender that looks like a '_'). roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[PersianComputing] RE: [farsiweb] New keyboard layout for Windows
Depends on how you define easy. Try! If you don't redefine your concept of easy, people are going to say it's too hard to bother with this script and that's why they advocate romanizing Persian. Do you know just to enable FA input on a Windows machine is asking too much for newbies? You should see the emails filled with anguish I get. Your instructions are no good! The farsi editor isn't downloading, etc. And these newbies are the same ones most apt to have great content worthy of the technology too but they just get too frustrated at the word-processing stage and give up. I was even joking with someone at MS that a first-time user should be able to sit down at the comptuer and say, Please activate Persian and automatically FA will be enabled, Word will fire up, nastaliq font at reasonable fontsize selected and RTL/right-aligned mode on and on-screen keyboad at your service! Even this probably won't be sufficient... -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
