Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote: e-Greetings, Some people say that we should use comma , or U+066B, some other say: We Should Use 'Reh (U+0631)'. Who has said to use U+066B or U+0631 for that??? I think this is all your hallucination. The only character that should be used is U+066C ARABIC THOUSANDS SEPARATOR. I know that Microsoft fonts (mistakenly) render it like a comma, but 1) that's wrong, have a look at Unicode tables, 2) It's a matter of font, you can put a re shaped glyph there in your font if you prefer. BUT THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY ONE CHARACTER THAT SHOULD BE USED. OTHERWISE YOU ARE CREATING A NEW PROBLEM. As a webmaster, I rather to use 'Reh', which consists with Web Usability Rules. Which Web Usability Rules?? Remember the Farsi vs. Persian War, for ages we have used the term 'Farsi'. But now we know Persian is correct. Now I'm a little bit worry about a Comma vs. Reh War! Yeah, and I smell you starting a problem. But I won't fight anymore after the end of this mail. Your problem. A professional in Persian language [Mr. MohammadReza Mohammadifar], has stated that using of 'Reh' is prefered, So have I ; though I'm not a Persian language expert. And I hereby say that Mr MohammadReza Mohammadifar is not a professional in Persian computing, and a professional is right now in this mail saying that you should not use re, but ARABIC THOUSANDS SEPARATOR U+066C. As you are not a Persian whatever expert, just go with my recommendation. period. behdad Regards, Behzad ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 16:32, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: [...] As you are not a Persian whatever expert, just go with my recommendation. period. ... or face the consequences if you wish to decide otherwise. nagoo nagoftim! ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)
Behzad, You are a wonder with scanner and hi-liter! Thank you and good job!! I'll let you know when the museum exposition is ready for your perusal. (Certain others may like to note how promptly Behzad has sent that when I'm still waiting for printed wedding invitations, flyers, invoices, etc with the Arabic Yeh and Kaf for the other museum exhibit announced a long time ago) Please kindly find the scanned page of the book (Persian Manual of Editing, Is there a date on there? 138?? Now I'm a little bit worry about a Comma vs. Reh War! Just be glad you weren't around for the Heh+Hamza vs Heh+Yeh War. Now THAT was bloody. A professional in Persian language [Mr. MohammadReza Mohammadifar], He DOES have a Heh+Hamza right there on the cover of his book so he can't be TOO bad! (Now I'm going to get flamed...) But why is he using the word, kaamaa? I thought it's virgul in Persian? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: As a webmaster, I rather to use 'Reh', which consists with Web Usability Rules. Which Web Usability Rules?? Presumably he doesn't like the users to see a box or ??? or ,. The old font problem as usual! That is the source of all our problems! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Please quote the exact Persian text (in faargilisi if necessary). By the way, what is the difference between faargilisi and finglish? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 21:02, C Bobroff wrote: By the way, what is the difference between faargilisi and finglish? Personal preference, perhaps. BTW, some people say the second should be called Pinglish ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:55, C Bobroff wrote: (Certain others may like to note how promptly Behzad has sent that when I'm still waiting for printed wedding invitations, flyers, invoices, etc with the Arabic Yeh and Kaf for the other museum exhibit announced a long time ago) I'm worried people will start refering to your pictures only as examples of good Persian typography: Look, this picture has it here, it's definitely Persian, and it uses the dots, so it's OK to do that! A professional in Persian language [Mr. MohammadReza Mohammadifar], He DOES have a Heh+Hamza right there on the cover of his book so he can't be TOO bad! (Now I'm going to get flamed...) You should meet him... He's of course a wonderful guy that has recognized many of the problems of Persian computing and published books on the matter (using tools he has developed himself). But his work can't be trusted as authoritative, as there are many known problems. For example, his work on indexing specifically mentions that the ordering of Persian vowel signs is Fathe, Zamme, Kasre, which almost no other reference agrees with. When I specifically asked him why he is doing so, he mentioned that he can't exactly remember the references, but it is based on exhaustive research. Now I won't call that good research. But why is he using the word, kaamaa? I thought it's virgul in Persian? Personal preference (a.k.a. ignorance)? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Historically (I see you are interested ;) snip Well, that's almost it. Yes, that is interesting! Let us know if there's more! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect (second e-mail)
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I tried to convince him to refine his work based on better references, but he didn't seem interested enough. OK, one whole person gave him feedback. told me. I have his email address, if you want to try it yourself. He happens to read his emails, contrary to many other Iranian experts. No thanks! You mean on the mailing list? No, I just checked, and he's not here, nor on any other mailing list on lists.sharif.edu. You never know who's hiding behind all those hotmail and yahoo addresses! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Reh is a workaround for the decimal separator (U+066B). This is the first time I'm seeing it recommended for a thousands separator. Perhaps due to English (American???) influence? Otherwise, Persian has borrowed punctuation from French where, in the case of numerals, the comma and decimal point are used exactly opposite of English usage. That's a nice coincidence that Reh resembles both a comma and the real Persian decimal separator. And now that you mention it, I recall the Arabic font-makers were having a lot of trouble reaching a concensus as to what the decimal separator should look like. (I don't remember the details, though.) Speaking of comma (060C), are there any guidelines for Persian texts about putting a space between the preceding word and the comma? Again, I don't remember exactly where I read that space or no space made a sylistic difference. Anyway, it's not always a workaround. Iran University Press insist on using a Reh form for the decimal separator although they use TeX-e-Parsi which has a different glyph than Solidus (/) for the decimal separator. Extremely cool! I will take a closer look next time I'm reading. Behzad, If you find the time and energy to scan and send a jpeg of the passage you quoted, I'll add that to the museum. It has great historical value. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect
As described in the book Nogh-teh GozAri (The official Persian Manual of Editing, Vol.5, Punctuaion Book) written by Mohammad-RezA Mohammadi-Far, page 460: It is not correct to use comma (,) or U+06CC to separate every group of thousands in numbers. Instead, the editor must use the Persian letter 'Reh (U+0631)'. BEHzad, Really? I thought the Reh was just a workaround for fonts lacking both , and U+066C. I didn't think it was something that should be prescribed. Do you have the publisher and date of publication of this manual? This is very interesting. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect
Behzad, I'm sure Mr. Mohammadi-Far has good reasons to suggest that. But in practical term, a comma in a Persian font will be designed according to that particular font face and it's esthetic requirements and thousands separator may look like persian Reh. But to use the actual code of Persian Reh for thousands separator in ANY font will result in ugly surprises! Behnam On 5-Jan-04, at 2:17 PM, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote: e-Greetings, I sawhttp://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/format.htm, But a note: As described in the book Nogh-teh GozAri (The official Persian Manual of Editing, Vol.5, Punctuaion Book) written by Mohammad-RezA Mohammadi-Far, page 460: It is not correct to use comma (,) or U+06CC to separate every group of thousands in numbers. Instead, the editor must use the Persian letter 'Reh (U+0631)'. Bedrood, BEHzad ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect
I think "Mr.Mohammadi Far" offered "Reh"
forclassic typewriters, (what you've seen
many timesin front ofcourthouses in Iran)I'm not sure, butI think it was hard (or impossible) to switch to English mode to write comma
Left To Right.
You know, for 1000 seperator you must use LTR comma
and "Reh" is similar to LTR comma.
In new technology, it is easy to use a mixture of
English and Persian characters in same line just by pressing Alt+Shift ;)
- Original Message -
From:
AmirBehzad
Eslami
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 10:47
PM
Subject: [persiancomputing]Separating
persian numbers with comma is incorrect
e-Greetings,
I saw http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/format.htm,But a note:
As describedin the book "Nogh-teh GozAri"
(The official Persian Manual of Editing, Vol.5, Punctuaion Book) written by
"Mohammad-RezA Mohammadi-Far", page 460:
It is not correct to use comma (",") or U+06CC
to separate every group of thousands in numbers. Instead, the editor must use
the Persian letter 'Reh (U+0631)'.
Bedrood,BEHzad
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Re: [persiancomputing]Separating persian numbers with comma is incorrect
On Mon, 5 Jan 2004, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote: e-Greetings, I saw http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/format.htm, But a note: As described in the book Nogh-teh GozAri (The official Persian Manual of Editing, Vol.5, Punctuaion Book) written by Mohammad-RezA Mohammadi-Far, page 460: It is not correct to use comma (,) or U+06CC to separate every group of thousands in numbers. Instead, the editor must use the Persian letter 'Reh (U+0631)'. A few notes: - Mr Mohammadi-Far's book as not Official by any means. - It doesn't say to use re, say's that it's the common practice, and better than using comma or slash. - The re shape is in many places of old typography used instead of decimal separator. - The sole reason that the correct thousands separator, the one that looks like an apostrophe is not ever used in traditional typography is for physicial limitations. Otherwise, we have all learnt from our early years of school to use that little piece almost above the digits, not at their base. behdad Bedrood, BEHzad ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
