Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-06-05 Thread Jonathan S. Katz
On 6/5/23 11:22 AM, Jacob Champion wrote: On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 2:50 PM Michael Paquier wrote: Took me some time to get back to it, but applied this way. Thanks all! +1; thank you! Jonathan OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-06-05 Thread Jacob Champion
On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 2:50 PM Michael Paquier wrote: > Took me some time to get back to it, but applied this way. Thanks all! --Jacob

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-06-03 Thread Michael Paquier
On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 08:28:32AM -0400, Michael Paquier wrote: > Hmm. Okay by me. Took me some time to get back to it, but applied this way. -- Michael signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-06-01 Thread Michael Paquier
On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 10:22:28AM +0200, Daniel Gustafsson wrote: > It's true that an attacker kan use offline analysis but it makes it sound > easier than it might be in practice. I would have written "to potentially > determine". Hmm. Okay by me. -- Michael signature.asc Description: PGP si

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-06-01 Thread Daniel Gustafsson
> On 31 May 2023, at 23:14, Michael Paquier wrote: > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 10:08:39AM -0400, Jacob Champion wrote: >> LGTM! > > Okay. Does anybody have any comments and/or objections? LGTM. As a small nitpick, I think this sentence is a little bit misleading: "..can use offline ana

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-31 Thread Michael Paquier
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 10:08:39AM -0400, Jacob Champion wrote: > LGTM! Okay. Does anybody have any comments and/or objections? -- Michael signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-31 Thread Jacob Champion
On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > The above assumes that the reader reviewed the previous paragraph and > followed the guidelines there. However, we can make it explicit. Please > see attached. LGTM! Thanks, --Jacob

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-28 Thread Michael Paquier
On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 02:21:53PM -0400, Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > The above assumes that the reader reviewed the previous paragraph and > followed the guidelines there. However, we can make it explicit. Please see > attached. Yeah, I was under the same impression as Jacob that we don't insist en

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-28 Thread Jonathan S. Katz
On 5/26/23 6:47 PM, Jacob Champion wrote: On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 6:10 PM Jonathan S. Katz wrote: + To prevent server spoofing from occurring when using + scram-sha-256 password authentication + over a network, you should ensure you are connecting using SSL. seems to backtrack on the

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-26 Thread Jacob Champion
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 6:10 PM Jonathan S. Katz wrote: > I read through the proposal and like this much better. Great! > I rewrote this to just focus on server spoofing that can occur with > SCRAM authentication and did some wordsmithing. I was torn on keeping in > the part of offline analysis

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-25 Thread Jonathan S. Katz
On 5/25/23 3:27 PM, Jacob Champion wrote: On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 10:48 AM Jonathan S. Katz wrote: Overall, +1 to tightening the language around the docs in this area. However, to paraphrase Stephen, I think the language, as currently written, makes the problem sound scarier than it actually i

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-25 Thread Jacob Champion
existing paragraphs.) --Jacob From 96dee3dead97d38afd0d8139f5c9954ab76dfcba Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Jacob Champion Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 16:46:23 -0700 Subject: [PATCH v2] docs: encourage strong server verification with SCRAM The server verification in libpq's SCRAM implementation can

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-25 Thread Jonathan S. Katz
On 5/25/23 1:29 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: Greetings, * Jacob Champion (jchamp...@timescale.com) wrote: On 5/24/23 05:04, Daniel Gustafsson wrote: On 23 May 2023, at 23:02, Stephen Frost wrote: Perhaps more succinctly- maybe we should be making adjustments to the current language instead of jus

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-25 Thread Jacob Champion
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 10:29 AM Stephen Frost wrote: > I was referring specifically to that ordering as not being ideal or in > line with the rest of the flow of that section. We should integrate the > concerns higher in the section where we outline the reason these things > matter and then foll

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-25 Thread Stephen Frost
Greetings, * Jacob Champion (jchamp...@timescale.com) wrote: > On 5/24/23 05:04, Daniel Gustafsson wrote: > >> On 23 May 2023, at 23:02, Stephen Frost wrote: > >> Perhaps more succinctly- maybe we should be making adjustments to the > >> current language instead of just adding a new paragraph. >

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-25 Thread Jacob Champion
On 5/23/23 21:37, Michael Paquier wrote: > On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 10:01:03PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: >> To the extent that there was an issue when it was implemented ... it's >> now been implemented and so that was presumably overcome (though I don't >> really specifically recall what the issu

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-25 Thread Jacob Champion
On 5/24/23 05:04, Daniel Gustafsson wrote: >> On 23 May 2023, at 23:02, Stephen Frost wrote: >> * Jacob Champion (jchamp...@timescale.com) wrote: > >>> - low iteration counts accepted by the client make it easier than it >>> probably should be for a MITM to brute-force passwords (note that >>> PG

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-24 Thread Daniel Gustafsson
> On 23 May 2023, at 23:02, Stephen Frost wrote: > * Jacob Champion (jchamp...@timescale.com) wrote: >> - low iteration counts accepted by the client make it easier than it >> probably should be for a MITM to brute-force passwords (note that >> PG16's scram_iterations GUC, being server-side, does

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-23 Thread Michael Paquier
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 10:01:03PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > To the extent that there was an issue when it was implemented ... it's > now been implemented and so that was presumably overcome (though I don't > really specifically recall what the issues were there? Seems like it > wouldn't matte

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-23 Thread Stephen Frost
Greetings, * Michael Paquier (mich...@paquier.xyz) wrote: > On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 09:46:58PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > > Not without breaking things we support today and for what seems like an > > unclear benefit given that we've got channel binding today (though > > perhaps we need to make

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-23 Thread Michael Paquier
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 09:46:58PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > Not without breaking things we support today and for what seems like an > unclear benefit given that we've got channel binding today (though > perhaps we need to make sure there's ways to force it on both sides to > be on and to encou

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-23 Thread Stephen Frost
Greetings, * Michael Paquier (mich...@paquier.xyz) wrote: > On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 05:02:50PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > > * Jacob Champion (jchamp...@timescale.com) wrote: > >> As touched on in past threads, our SCRAM implementation is slightly > >> nonstandard and doesn't always protect the

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-23 Thread Michael Paquier
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 05:02:50PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > * Jacob Champion (jchamp...@timescale.com) wrote: >> As touched on in past threads, our SCRAM implementation is slightly >> nonstandard and doesn't always protect the entirety of the >> authentication handshake: >> >> - the username i

Re: Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-23 Thread Stephen Frost
Greetings, * Jacob Champion (jchamp...@timescale.com) wrote: > As touched on in past threads, our SCRAM implementation is slightly > nonstandard and doesn't always protect the entirety of the > authentication handshake: > > - the username in the startup packet is not covered by the SCRAM > crypto

Docs: Encourage strong server verification with SCRAM

2023-05-23 Thread Jacob Champion
ll out that GSS can't use channel binding, or promote the use of TLS versus GSS for SCRAM, or just keep it simple? Thanks, --Jacob From 5b346313f1cecd3c4c79b6e104094e50bb1cfa75 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Jacob Champion Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 16:46:23 -0700 Subject: [PATCH] docs: encourage