Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-14 Thread Stephen Frost
Robert, all, * Robert Haas (robertmh...@gmail.com) wrote: On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:07 PM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: The attached v12 patch removes the code that became redundant with Alvaro committing the event trigger/deparse work. I've updated the regression tests to

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-13 Thread Robert Haas
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:07 PM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 5/1/15 5:58 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: For now, since pg_audit patch has a pg_audit_ddl_command_end() function which uses part of un-committed deparsing utility commands patch API, pg_audit patch is completely depend

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-09 Thread Bruce Momjian
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 03:41:13PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: Bruce, What is our history of doing things in contrib because we are not sure what we want, then moving it into core? My general recollection is that there is usually something in the contrib version we don't want to add to

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-07 Thread Stephen Frost
Bruce, * Bruce Momjian (br...@momjian.us) wrote: On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 10:26:55AM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: * Peter Eisentraut (pete...@gmx.net) wrote: On 5/4/15 8:37 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: I don't follow this logic. The concerns raised above are about changing our in-core

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-07 Thread Bruce Momjian
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 10:26:55AM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: * Peter Eisentraut (pete...@gmx.net) wrote: On 5/4/15 8:37 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: I don't follow this logic. The concerns raised above are about changing our in-core logging. We haven't got in-core auditing and so I don't

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-07 Thread Stephen Frost
Peter, * Peter Eisentraut (pete...@gmx.net) wrote: On 5/7/15 10:26 AM, Stephen Frost wrote: Auditing is about what happened whereas statement logging is log whatever statement the user sent. pgAudit bears this out by logging internal SQL statements and object information, unlike what we

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-07 Thread Stephen Frost
* Peter Eisentraut (pete...@gmx.net) wrote: On 5/4/15 8:37 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: I don't follow this logic. The concerns raised above are about changing our in-core logging. We haven't got in-core auditing and so I don't see how they apply to it. How is session auditing

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-07 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On 5/7/15 10:26 AM, Stephen Frost wrote: Auditing is about what happened whereas statement logging is log whatever statement the user sent. pgAudit bears this out by logging internal SQL statements and object information, unlike what we do with statement logging today. I don't think this is

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-07 Thread David Steele
On 5/7/15 8:26 AM, Stephen Frost wrote: * Peter Eisentraut (pete...@gmx.net) wrote: On 5/4/15 8:37 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: I don't follow this logic. The concerns raised above are about changing our in-core logging. We haven't got in-core auditing and so I don't see how they apply to it.

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-05 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On 5/4/15 8:37 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: I don't follow this logic. The concerns raised above are about changing our in-core logging. We haven't got in-core auditing and so I don't see how they apply to it. How is session auditing substantially different from statement logging? I think it is

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-04 Thread Stephen Frost
* Peter Eisentraut (pete...@gmx.net) wrote: On 4/30/15 6:05 AM, Fujii Masao wrote: The specification of session audit logging seems to be still unclear to me. As I had mentioned previously, I would prefer session audit logging to be integrated with the normal statement logging

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-04 Thread Stephen Frost
* Peter Eisentraut (pete...@gmx.net) wrote: On 5/4/15 3:00 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: One particular advantage of having the extension is that having it doesn't impact existing users of the in-core logging system. I don't recall any specific proposals for improving the in-core logging system

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-04 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On 5/4/15 3:00 PM, Stephen Frost wrote: One particular advantage of having the extension is that having it doesn't impact existing users of the in-core logging system. I don't recall any specific proposals for improving the in-core logging system to add the capabilities for session logging

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-01 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On 4/30/15 6:05 AM, Fujii Masao wrote: The specification of session audit logging seems to be still unclear to me. As I had mentioned previously, I would prefer session audit logging to be integrated with the normal statement logging configuration. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-01 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 6:24 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/30/15 6:05 AM, Fujii Masao wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Sawada Masahiko sawada.m...@gmail.com wrote: I have changed the status this to Ready for Committer. The specification of session audit logging

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-05-01 Thread David Steele
On 5/1/15 5:58 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 6:24 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: May 15th is the feature freeze, so that does give a little time. It's not clear to me what a self-contained part of the patch would be. If you have specific ideas on what could

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-30 Thread Fujii Masao
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Sawada Masahiko sawada.m...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:17 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/28/15 2:14 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:23 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: I've also added some

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-29 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:17 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/28/15 2:14 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:23 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: I've also added some checking to make sure that if anything looks funny on the stack an error will be

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-28 Thread David Steele
On 4/28/15 2:14 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:23 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: I've also added some checking to make sure that if anything looks funny on the stack an error will be generated. Thanks for the feedback! Thank you for updating the patch!

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-28 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:23 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/23/15 5:49 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: I'm concerned that behaviour of pg_audit has been changed at a few times as far as I remember. Did we achieve consensus on this design? The original author Abhijit expressed

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-23 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:17 PM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/20/15 4:40 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: Thank you for updating the patch. One question about regarding since v7 (or later) patch is; What is the different between OBJECT logging and SESSION logging? In brief,

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-20 Thread David Steele
On 4/20/15 4:40 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: Thank you for updating the patch. One question about regarding since v7 (or later) patch is; What is the different between OBJECT logging and SESSION logging? In brief, session logging can log anything that happens in a user session while object

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-20 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:34 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/15/15 11:30 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Sawada Masahiko sawada.m...@gmail.com wrote: I tested v8 patch with CURSOR case I mentioned before, and got segmentation fault again. Here

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-15 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Sawada Masahiko sawada.m...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:57 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/14/15 7:13 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: This patch does not apply cleanly due to the moving of pgbench (patch to filelist.sgml failed).

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-15 Thread David Steele
On 4/14/15 8:37 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: BTW, in my understanding pg_audit allows to track a table access even if it's used in a view. I think this is a nice feature and it would be better explicitly stated in the document and the test case is better included in the regression test. Here is

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-14 Thread David Steele
On 4/14/15 7:13 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: This patch does not apply cleanly due to the moving of pgbench (patch to filelist.sgml failed). Thank you for pointing that out! Ironic that it was the commit directly after the one I was testing with that broke the patch. It appears the end of the last

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-14 Thread Tatsuo Ishii
Thank you for pointing that out! Ironic that it was the commit directly after the one I was testing with that broke the patch. It appears the end of the last CF is a very bad time to be behind HEAD. Fixed in attached v8 patch. Thank you for your quick response. BTW, in my understanding

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-14 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:57 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/14/15 7:13 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: This patch does not apply cleanly due to the moving of pgbench (patch to filelist.sgml failed). Thank you for pointing that out! Ironic that it was the commit directly after the

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-14 Thread Tatsuo Ishii
This patch does not apply cleanly due to the moving of pgbench (patch to filelist.sgml failed). Best regards, -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS, Inc. Japan English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp Attached is the v7 pg_audit patch. I've tried to address Peter's

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-07 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On 4/6/15 5:03 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: The present version can trigger an audit trail event for a statement, without tracking the object that was being audited. This prevents you from searching for all SQL that touches table X, i.e. we know the statements were

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread Simon Riggs
On 6 April 2015 at 16:34, Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: On 2/14/15 9:34 PM, David Steele wrote: The patch I've attached satisfies the requirements that I've had from customers in the past. What I'm missing is a more precise description/documentation of what those requirements might

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread Peter Eisentraut
On 2/14/15 9:34 PM, David Steele wrote: The patch I've attached satisfies the requirements that I've had from customers in the past. What I'm missing is a more precise description/documentation of what those requirements might be. Audit is a big word. It might imply regulatory or standards

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Simon Riggs wrote: The present version can trigger an audit trail event for a statement, without tracking the object that was being audited. This prevents you from searching for all SQL that touches table X, i.e. we know the statements were generated, but not which ones they were. IMHO that

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread David Steele
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 4/6/15 4:34 PM, Peter Eisentraut wrote: On 2/14/15 9:34 PM, David Steele wrote: The patch I've attached satisfies the requirements that I've had from customers in the past. What I'm missing is a more precise description/documentation of

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread David Steele
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 4/6/15 4:47 PM, Simon Riggs wrote: On 6 April 2015 at 16:34, Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote: Audit is a big word. It might imply regulatory or standards compliance on some level. We already have ways to log everything. If

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread Simon Riggs
On 6 April 2015 at 20:38, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: The earlier version of pg_audit generated different output. Specifically, it allowed you to generate output for each object tracked; one line per object. That discussion covers recursive SQL. That is important too, but not what

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:01 PM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/3/15 3:59 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 2:46 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Let me know if you see any other issues. I pulled HEAD, and then tried to compile source code after

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:01 PM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/3/15 3:59 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 2:46 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Let me know if you see any other issues. I pulled HEAD, and then tried to compile source code after

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-06 Thread David Steele
On 4/6/15 8:40 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:01 PM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On 4/3/15 3:59 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 2:46 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Let me know if you see any other issues. I pulled HEAD, and

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-03 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 2:46 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Hi Sawada, On 3/25/15 9:24 AM, David Steele wrote: On 3/25/15 7:46 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: 2. I got ERROR when executing function uses cursor. 1) create empty table (hoge table) 2) create test function as follows.

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-03 Thread David Steele
On 4/3/15 3:59 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 2:46 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Let me know if you see any other issues. I pulled HEAD, and then tried to compile source code after applied following deparsing utility command patch without #0001 and #0002.

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-01 Thread David Steele
Hi Sawada, On 3/25/15 9:24 AM, David Steele wrote: On 3/25/15 7:46 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: 2. I got ERROR when executing function uses cursor. 1) create empty table (hoge table) 2) create test function as follows. create function test() returns int as $$ declare cur1 cursor for

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-04-01 Thread David Steele
On 3/23/15 12:40 PM, David Steele wrote: On 3/23/15 1:31 AM, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: I'm experimenting with a few approaches to do this without reintroducing switch statements to test every command. That will require core changes, but I think we can find an acceptable arrangement. I'll post a

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-25 Thread David Steele
On 3/25/15 7:46 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:23 PM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:38 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: 2. OBJECT auditing does not work before adding acl info to pg_class.rel_acl. In following situation,

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-25 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:23 PM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:38 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: 2. OBJECT auditing does not work before adding acl info to pg_class.rel_acl. In following situation, pg_audit can not audit OBJECT log. $ cat

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-24 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 3:17 AM, Alvaro Herrera alvhe...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: Sawada Masahiko wrote: I tied to look into latest patch, but got following error. masahiko [pg_audit] $ LANG=C make gcc -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wendif-labels

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-24 Thread David Steele
Hi Sawada, Thank you for taking the time to look at the patch. On 3/24/15 10:28 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: I've applied these patchese successfully. I looked into this module, and had a few comments as follows. 1. pg_audit audits only one role currently. In currently code, we can not

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-24 Thread Sawada Masahiko
Hi David, Thank you for your answer! On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:38 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Hi Sawada, Thank you for taking the time to look at the patch. On 3/24/15 10:28 AM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: I've applied these patchese successfully. I looked into this module,

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-24 Thread David Steele
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:38 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: 2. OBJECT auditing does not work before adding acl info to pg_class.rel_acl. In following situation, pg_audit can not audit OBJECT log. $ cat postgresql.conf | grep audit shared_preload_libraries = 'pg_audit'

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-23 Thread David Steele
Thanks for the review, Abhijit. On 3/23/15 1:31 AM, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: At 2015-02-24 11:22:41 -0500, da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Patch v3 is attached. + +/* Function execution */ +LOG_MISC = (1 5), The comment above LOG_MISC should be changed. Fixed. More fundamentally,

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-23 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Sawada Masahiko wrote: I tied to look into latest patch, but got following error. masahiko [pg_audit] $ LANG=C make gcc -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wendif-labels -Wmissing-format-attribute -Wformat-security -fno-strict-aliasing -fwrapv -g

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-23 Thread Sawada Masahiko
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 1:40 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Thanks for the review, Abhijit. On 3/23/15 1:31 AM, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: At 2015-02-24 11:22:41 -0500, da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Patch v3 is attached. + +/* Function execution */ +LOG_MISC = (1 5),

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-23 Thread David Steele
On 3/23/15 1:39 PM, Sawada Masahiko wrote: On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 1:40 AM, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: I have prepared a patch that brings event triggers and deparse back to pg_audit based on the Alvaro's dev/deparse branch at git://git.postgresql.org/git/2ndquadrant_bdr.git

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-03-22 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2015-02-24 11:22:41 -0500, da...@pgmasters.net wrote: Patch v3 is attached. […] +/* Log class enum used to represent bits in auditLogBitmap */ +enum LogClass +{ + LOG_NONE = 0, + + /* SELECT */ + LOG_READ = (1 0), + + /* INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE, TRUNCATE */ +

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-02-24 Thread David Steele
On 2/23/15 10:59 AM, David Steele wrote: On 2/17/15 10:34 AM, Stephen Frost wrote: There seems to be a number of places which are 'pgaudit' and a bunch that are 'pg_audit'. I'm guessing you were thinking 'pg_audit', but it'd be good to clean up and make them all consistent. Fixed, though I

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-02-23 Thread David Steele
Hi Stephen, Thanks for your review. All fixed except for comments below: On 2/17/15 10:34 AM, Stephen Frost wrote: +/* + * Check privileges granted indirectly via role memberships. We do this in + * a separate pass to minimize expensive indirect membership tests. In + *

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-02-18 Thread Simon Riggs
On 15 February 2015 at 02:34, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: I've posted a couple of messages over the last few weeks about the work I've been doing on the pg_audit extension. The lack of response could be due to either universal acclaim or complete apathy, but in any case I think

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-02-18 Thread David Steele
On 2/18/15 8:25 AM, Simon Riggs wrote: On 15 February 2015 at 02:34, David Steele da...@pgmasters.net wrote: I've posted a couple of messages over the last few weeks about the work I've been doing on the pg_audit extension. The lack of response could be due to either universal acclaim or

Re: [HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-02-17 Thread Stephen Frost
David, I've CC'd Abhijit, the original author of pgaudit, as it seems likely he'd also be interested in this. * David Steele (da...@pgmasters.net) wrote: I've posted a couple of messages over the last few weeks about the work I've been doing on the pg_audit extension. The lack of response

[HACKERS] Auditing extension for PostgreSQL (Take 2)

2015-02-14 Thread David Steele
I've posted a couple of messages over the last few weeks about the work I've been doing on the pg_audit extension. The lack of response could be due to either universal acclaim or complete apathy, but in any case I think this is a very important topic so I want to give it another try. I've