Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 1:49 AM, Hitoshi Harada wrote: > 2011/6/30 Itagaki Takahiro : >> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 09:42, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: >>> BTW I will talk to some Japanese speaking developers about my idea if >>> community agree to add Japanese README to the source tree so that I am >>> not the only one who are contributing this project >>> Now, if someone wanted to set up a web site or Wiki page with translations, that would be up to them. >> >> IMHO, the Wiki approach seems to be reasonable than a README file. >> It will be suitable for adding non-Japanese translations and >> non-core developer can join to translate or fix the docs. > > +1. If we really want to prove the demand, let's start with Wiki, > which is less invasive than README (though I doubt such pages would be > updated finally.) We could consider adding a note to the README files pointing people to an appropriate wiki page for translated versions, so that someone who just checks out the source tree has a place to go and start looking. -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
On tor, 2011-06-30 at 09:42 +0900, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: > Why don't you worry about message translations then? Translation is a > human process and there's no way to guaranteer the translation is > perfect. At least for message translations we have a process and sophisticated tools that ensure that the translation has been done and when and by whom. If you create additional translation maintenance effort, then if you could integrate that into the existing PO-based system, I'm sure the objections would be less (or different). And another important point: the PO-based system never shows outdated translations to the user. But if we're adding another step to the release preparation where someone has to chase down half a dozen people to update some file, that creates a lot more burden and bottlenecks, including the possibility to hold up minor releases or having to remove files in minor releases. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
On ons, 2011-06-29 at 18:48 -0500, Kevin Grittner wrote: > I think this needs a well-defined and sustainable *process*, not > just a set of volunteers. I'm skeptical that a workable process can > be devised, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. We had translated FAQs, each with a maintainer, which were massively outdated before we removed them. And just as another example closer to home, I can tell even without knowing any Japanese or Chinese that doc/README.mb.big5 and doc/README.mb.jp are so outdated that we should consider removing them right now. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
2011/6/30 Itagaki Takahiro : > On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 09:42, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: >> BTW I will talk to some Japanese speaking developers about my idea if >> community agree to add Japanese README to the source tree so that I am >> not the only one who are contributing this project >> >>> Now, if someone wanted to set up a web site or Wiki page with >>> translations, that would be up to them. > > IMHO, the Wiki approach seems to be reasonable than a README file. > It will be suitable for adding non-Japanese translations and > non-core developer can join to translate or fix the docs. +1. If we really want to prove the demand, let's start with Wiki, which is less invasive than README (though I doubt such pages would be updated finally.) Regards, -- Hitoshi Harada -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:43 AM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: > > IMHO, the Wiki approach seems to be reasonable than a README file. > > It will be suitable for adding non-Japanese translations and > > non-core developer can join to translate or fix the docs. > > I doubt other than developers can translate those README files since > the words used in the files chosen to be understandable for those who > are familiar with PostgreSQL internals. > You may be surprised by the quality of translations from non-developers findable in a lot of Open source softwares. -- Michael Paquier http://michael.otacoo.com
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
> IMHO, the Wiki approach seems to be reasonable than a README file. > It will be suitable for adding non-Japanese translations and > non-core developer can join to translate or fix the docs. I doubt other than developers can translate those README files since the words used in the files chosen to be understandable for those who are familiar with PostgreSQL internals. -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS, Inc. Japan English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 09:42, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: > BTW I will talk to some Japanese speaking developers about my idea if > community agree to add Japanese README to the source tree so that I am > not the only one who are contributing this project > >> Now, if someone wanted to set up a web site or Wiki page with >> translations, that would be up to them. IMHO, the Wiki approach seems to be reasonable than a README file. It will be suitable for adding non-Japanese translations and non-core developer can join to translate or fix the docs. If we will promote those README files as documentation, we could move them into "internals" section in the SGML doc tree. If so, the translated README will be a part of the doc translation project. -- Itagaki Takahiro -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
>> My idea is defining "maintainer" for each README. Of course I am >> ready for Japanese one. > > That would only cover part of the problem, and not on a permanent > basis. > > How do you notice that a README has changed? Commit messages, obviously. > How does the community know when the changes have been completely > incorporated into the translation? Why don't you worry about message translations then? Translation is a human process and there's no way to guaranteer the translation is perfect. > What do we do if we have README translations which haven't been > updated when it's time to tag a release? Delete them? Leave old, > misleading content? I would say delete them. The reson for this is: > If the mainter is too lazy, we would be > able to remove the file before releasing new version. In another word, > the released version of PostgreSQL will always have accurate README, > which itself valuable for those who are in charge of maintaining older > versions. > What if you move on to something else and are no longer active in > the project? > > I think this needs a well-defined and sustainable *process*, not > just a set of volunteers. I'm skeptical that a workable process can > be devised, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. Kevin, this is an open source project. Nobody can guarantee that he/she can continute to contribute forever. If we are so worry about this, we will never be able to accept any contribution at all. BTW I will talk to some Japanese speaking developers about my idea if community agree to add Japanese README to the source tree so that I am not the only one who are contributing this project(I can commit that my coworkers will help the project. However I prefer to gather contributors outside my company in addition to inside my company since this will bring more sustainable activity). > Now, if someone wanted to set up a web site or Wiki page with > translations, that would be up to them. I doubt anyone would object > to a link from the Developer FAQ to such a page. It seems to me > that this would provide most of the same benefit, without much in > the way of a down side. It might be wise to go so far as to put a > "last modified" date in each README (which would be copied without > change into each translation which brought things up to date), so > that it would be easy for someone looking at translation to > determine whether it was current. -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS, Inc. Japan English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
> I think this is basically a bad idea, because 90% of the developers will > be unable to update such a file when changing the source code, or even > verify whether it's an accurate translation. Thus it will inevitably > become out-of-date, and that seems worse than useless. I'm fairly > dubious that someone who doesn't read English will be able to make much > sense of the source code anyway. This is the same argument as Kevin raised. My idea is defining "maintainer" for each non English README who is responsible for updating in timely manner. If the mainter is too lazy, we would be able to remove the file before releasing new version. In another word, the released version of PostgreSQL will always have accurate README, which itself valuable for those who are in charge of maintaining older versions. >> Please note that I am not against adding README translated in other >> language. I just don't understand other than Japanese. > > That's another problem: if we add Japanese, why not six or seven other > languages? That's basically the same problem as message translation. If we have to wait until six or seven langugae speakers appear before putting Japanese README written in particular language, why didn't do that way for message translation? It seems your argument is not fair here. -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS, Inc. Japan English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
Tatsuo Ishii wrote: >> The obvious concern would be "drift". As README files are >> patched, someone would need to stay on top of the translation >> process. Any ideas on how that could be reasonably managed? > > My idea is defining "maintainer" for each README. Of course I am > ready for Japanese one. That would only cover part of the problem, and not on a permanent basis. How do you notice that a README has changed? How does the community know when the changes have been completely incorporated into the translation? What do we do if we have README translations which haven't been updated when it's time to tag a release? Delete them? Leave old, misleading content? What if you move on to something else and are no longer active in the project? I think this needs a well-defined and sustainable *process*, not just a set of volunteers. I'm skeptical that a workable process can be devised, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. Now, if someone wanted to set up a web site or Wiki page with translations, that would be up to them. I doubt anyone would object to a link from the Developer FAQ to such a page. It seems to me that this would provide most of the same benefit, without much in the way of a down side. It might be wise to go so far as to put a "last modified" date in each README (which would be copied without change into each translation which brought things up to date), so that it would be easy for someone looking at translation to determine whether it was current. -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
Excerpts from Tom Lane's message of mié jun 29 19:24:07 -0400 2011: > Tatsuo Ishii writes: > > I would like to propose to add Japanese translated version of README > > in the source tree(for example against backend/storage/buffer/README). > > I think this is basically a bad idea, because 90% of the developers will > be unable to update such a file when changing the source code, or even > verify whether it's an accurate translation. Thus it will inevitably > become out-of-date, and that seems worse than useless. I'm fairly > dubious that someone who doesn't read English will be able to make much > sense of the source code anyway. What we could do instead is add a link to a translation in the wiki, with a note that the wiki page may not be up to date. -- Álvaro Herrera The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
>> I would like to propose to add Japanese translated version of >> README in the source tree > >> Comments? > > The obvious concern would be "drift". As README files are patched, > someone would need to stay on top of the translation process. Any > ideas on how that could be reasonably managed? My idea is defining "maintainer" for each README. Of course I am ready for Japanese one. -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS, Inc. Japan English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
Tatsuo Ishii writes: > I would like to propose to add Japanese translated version of README > in the source tree(for example against backend/storage/buffer/README). I think this is basically a bad idea, because 90% of the developers will be unable to update such a file when changing the source code, or even verify whether it's an accurate translation. Thus it will inevitably become out-of-date, and that seems worse than useless. I'm fairly dubious that someone who doesn't read English will be able to make much sense of the source code anyway. > Please note that I am not against adding README translated in other > language. I just don't understand other than Japanese. That's another problem: if we add Japanese, why not six or seven other languages? regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
Tatsuo Ishii wrote: > I would like to propose to add Japanese translated version of > README in the source tree > Comments? The obvious concern would be "drift". As README files are patched, someone would need to stay on top of the translation process. Any ideas on how that could be reasonably managed? -Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] Adding Japanese README
I would like to propose to add Japanese translated version of README in the source tree(for example against backend/storage/buffer/README). Benefits of our community include: - Increase possibility to hire more Japanese speaking developers by helping them to understand source code using those README written in their local language - Make Japanese speaking developers life easier. Most of them can read English README of course. However, reading Japanese one will increase their productivity thus more contribution to PostgreSQL - Including Japanese README in the source tree rather than placing in somewhere else helps syncing English README with Japanese one. Please note that I am not against adding README translated in other language. I just don't understand other than Japanese. Comments? -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS, Inc. Japan English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers