[PHP-DEV] XSLT bug
If I have an XML document with 2 applications nodes and the following template in the style sheet xsl:template match=application xsl:number format=a value=position() / xsl:value-of select=name / br / /xsl:template the result is b. the name d. the name2 When I think it should be a. and b .. For some reason, position() is returning the wrong result.
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
I also recall that many of my first arguments were not saying that it sucks. I think a majority of the problem is that everyone that sticks up for pear sees anything that challenges where its going, its goals and what it current has as an extremely large accusation and therefore it sucks. The reason why many of my statements now have been somewhat sour and negative are to reflect the arguments that were already thrown my way in the beginning where I thought my statements were from what everyone is making them out to be. So don't be surprised if I seem to be this way and that others have left as well. Maybe it's not the accusers that have the problem. Just something to think about. - Original Message - From: Dave Mertens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:41 AM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now. Which is it, java most of the time, or java and .net for all my applications now. Big difference. Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this out of the norm? He, you barch in, telling the PEAR community the PEAR sucks big time, and you find it peculiar that some people are a bit picky about you?? Look, with that attitude, no wonder why it doesn't any better. He, what would you to if i told you that the project you've worked on for more than a year totaly sucks?! Every day there are commit thats make pear better and better. But don't forget this is a company project where there is a management that is telling what there have to be done. I know that sometimes it a problem. But people that ONLY saying pear sucks aren't helping. Write some patches, and if you think PEAR DB is to heavy. Write a light version of it. Nobody is keeping you from make pear better. And if you have ideas how things might be better, write them with a friendly tone. Because barching in isn't helping anyone. So stop insulting people and do something about the points that you're trying to make. We want no words, we want deeds! Dave Mertens -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
Look, with that attitude, no wonder why it doesn't any better. - Original Message - From: Dave Mertens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dan Hardiker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 04:22:00PM -, Dan Hardiker wrote: Ken Egervari writes: I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now. Which is it, java most of the time, or java and .net for all my applications now. Big difference. Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this out of the norm? He, you barch in, telling the PEAR community the PEAR sucks big time, and you find it peculiar that some people are a bit picky about you?? Dave Mertens -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] XSLT bug
Sorry, but if you have a problem your tires, you usually go to the dealership's service department instead of going to the manufacturer. And this is a bug. It used to work 4.1.0/4.1.1 and now that I have 4.1.2 it doesn't work (probably due to a newer sablotron release).
Re: [PHP-DEV] XSLT bug
immature. - Original Message - From: Sterling Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] XSLT bug Sorry, but if you have a problem your tires, you usually go to the dealership's service department instead of going to the manufacturer. And this is a bug. It used to work 4.1.0/4.1.1 and now that I have 4.1.2 it doesn't work (probably due to a newer sablotron release). Hi, I'm Joe, outa ur friendly neighborhood tire dealership, outa Alabamaa... Having eh problmmm wi disss free, err, softwaree, I'ze a givin' uuu?? U complaining 'bout free stuff, u ingraterful foreigne!? Weeelll, dats ok, if _uu_ harve problemo's wit dis software, __ karn contarct [EMAIL PROTECTED], carmplain ta them, uuu, uuu, uuu, microsoft freaX0r. I'sa takin' a break now, goin' ta go frog hunting wit my double barrel shottoy! eehaaw! - Jumpin' Joe Inbred -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] XSLT bug
I know that there is a workaround (which is obvious), but I just wanted to report it. position() is supposed to return the position of the node within the current node list. So i'd expect 1,2,3,4...N. It's just strange why it would behave otherwise. As for doing it this way? I'm just playing around and noticed it. this isn't production code at all. - Original Message - From: Matt McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] XSLT bug On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 12:57:21AM -0400, Ken Egervari wrote: If I have an XML document with 2 applications nodes and the following template in the style sheet xsl:template match=application xsl:number format=a value=position() / xsl:value-of select=@name / br / /xsl:template the result is b. the name d. the name2 When I think it should be a. and b .. For some reason, position() is returning the wrong result. Out of curiousity, why are you forcing the xsl:number value? With value=position() I see the same numbering (b, d) as you when I test it with xsltproc (Which doesn't use sablotron). Taking the value attribute out gives the desired a, b listing. So, perhaps it's not a bug, but instead sablotron was doing it wrong beforehand, and has been fixed. When behavior changes, it doesn't always mean that the old behavior was correct. Matt -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] XSLT bug
ahh, that makes sense. actually template match=text() /template would do it too. Cool. - Original Message - From: Matt McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] XSLT bug On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:09:01PM -0400, Ken Egervari wrote: I know that there is a workaround (which is obvious), but I just wanted to report it. position() is supposed to return the position of the node within the current node list. So i'd expect 1,2,3,4...N. It's just strange why it would behave otherwise. As for doing it this way? I'm just playing around and noticed it. this isn't production code at all. This should've occured to me before sending the first reply, but, eh. Memory doesn't work so well so soon after waking up. It actually is reporting the correct position, if your XML is indendted. For example: root application name=a / application name=b / /root has two text nodes in it at positions 1 and 3. So position() correctly reports the application nodes as being at 2 and 4. The only workaround for that is to take all the whitespace out of your XML: rootapplication name=a /application name=b //root Matt -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
You are completely avoiding the issue here. Getting the job done and getting it done fast with the right tools are also 2 big differences. - Original Message - From: Dan Hardiker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:22 PM Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform Is there alot of this sort of bickering on this mailing list, or is this out of the norm? Ken, Mike - does it *really* matter who uses what technology to get the job done? Isn't it much more important what the resulting code is capable of doing and in what manner? -- Dan Hardiker [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] ADAM Software Systems Engineer First Creative Ltd Ken Egervari writes: Actually, I use java most of the time. Who's making the assumptions? I assume nothing. You posted earlier: I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now. Which is it, java most of the time, or java and .net for all my applications now. Big difference. Mike Robinson -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
I'd have to agree with Dave. PHP is too far behind and for those that didn't agree with earlier post that started this entire topic about developing a a PHP Platform, this is the reality that we all face. I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now. PHP just doesn't come into the picture any longer. I can't see any performance or coding time benefits that justify using it. The fact that I write something in Java and 20x more people can make use of it is even more gratifying. How long as PEAR being around? Maybe not nearly enough as Java, but don't even have a great collections framework, lack of standard xml parsers and even tools to make our coding easier. I'm a convert I suppose. I'm loosing everyday as I see PHP code already in production and that I can't take the facilities of .NET or Java as a whole. It's sad really that the PHP community isn't large enough to keep up. I too how ze2 will justify any code i've written, but I look now upon it as a very large waste. It's unfortunate. - Original Message - From: Dave Mertens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brad lafountain [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Andrey Hristov [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:27:06AM -0700, brad lafountain wrote: And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered free by Microsoft. alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft. Yeah, but are there any professional tranings for PHP? Do you hear of PHP? That's the problem i'm facing. I think PHP is great, i really am. But the fact the PHP don't have a proper XML parser, only a scripting SOAP parser makes it for my boss easy to choose for ASP/Java in stead of PHP. And what can i do about it, absolutely nothing! I don't have the knowledge to make PHP itself better. That why i submit as much as i can (and allowed) to PEAR. Hoping that it will end as a set of foundation classes. But now, all new projects are done with ASP. And why? Because Microsoft has a damn good marketing machine. They even have now commercials for .NET! And about the training. Microsoft knows that PHP is getting behind and they are saying that .NET can do almost everything what PHP can and more. I can only say that i hope ZE2 will change this. But i have a hard time on my work defending PHP. Yeah. When a company becomes a Microsoft Partner you get a lot of MS licenses for free! Buy MSDN Universal and you get more programs for Free. And the company i work for is a gold partner. We have 100 free licenses for XP! Why use linux?? 2 years ago PHP was leading egde. I hope that the ZE2 engine makes it a leading language again. Dave Mertens -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
I the fact that you still program says 2 things a) no enough are learning php which in itself, says PHP is not doing a good enough job promoting the language b) there actually needs to be more support for PHP software in comparison to .net and java applications. - Original Message - From: Dave Mertens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Andi Gutmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: brad lafountain [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andrey Hristov [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 05:40:19PM +0300, Andi Gutmans wrote: At 07:27 16/04/2002 -0700, brad lafountain wrote: And next week i have a special C# traning for PHP developers. Offered free by Microsoft. alls i have to say is WOW. This is one pathetic attempt by Microsoft. I wouldn't call it pathetic because these things work. And of these things work. We have 2 fulltime PHP developers and 4 part-time PHP developers which includes me. And with part-time i mean, those developers also write ASP, C# and Java code. And ofcouse i'm going to such trainings. Maybe i even learn something. And oh, i'm also a MSDE programmer. That's was a requirement of my boss. My job title says that i'm a Technical project manager. But i'm lucky i'm still program. Other tpm's are only busy managing their projects. But i'm a bit special. I know PHP! And that makes that i'm still program. Dave Mertens -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
The issue with the phpclasses repository is that none of the classes really 'work together' much like the Java and .NET classes. As you have known, extremephp.org was a project I started awhile back to do such a framework (well, actually a lot of subframeworks meshed into one). Nonetheless, this hasn't happened with PHP. Also, the people who submit to phpclasses.org don't have to be super architects. This is good and bad. The bad thing is, many of the classes there aren't as good as they could be because 1 mind was behind the wheel and lots of times the classes even brake standard OO design heuristics. When someone with a lot of design experience looks at the classes, they say, hmm.. i wonder if all the work done on PHP is this questionable.. You can't wind everyone, but not too much work has been done to make solid OO frameworks and tools. I tried.. but the project is too damn big. I don't think it has too much to do with bad Fame. For instance, several large companies still use php, including the work I did on altavista and Rackspace and audiogalaxy use PHP as well. Sure, more well known sites that use PHP would increase its popularity, but what I really think is that PHP needs a real platform that makes it even faster to develop websites and client-side tools - or it's going to fall behind. It's really as simple as that. Regards, Ken Egervari - Original Message - From: Manuel Lemos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform Hello, Ken Egervari wrote: I'd have to agree with Dave. PHP is too far behind and for those that didn't agree with earlier post that started this entire topic about developing a a PHP Platform, this is the reality that we all face. I for one have been using Java and .Net for all my applications now. PHP just doesn't come into the picture any longer. I can't see any performance or coding time benefits that justify using it. The fact that I write something in Java and 20x more people can make use of it is even more gratifying. How long as PEAR being around? Maybe not nearly enough as Java, but don't even You are touching a sensitive key. PEAR aimed to be like CPAN but since contributing is reserved to a few privileged minds, there is no adherence to it. OTOH, anybody contribute for instance to the PHP Classes repository, just like to CPAN. The advantage against CPAN is that the PHP Classes repository assures an guaranteed audience of tens of thousands of PHP users that are eager to learn abour new classes. Here you may see the stats about over 32.000 users that get notifications about all the new content in there: have a great collections framework, lack of standard xml parsers and even tools to make our coding easier. I'm a convert I suppose. I'm loosing everyday as I see PHP code already in production and that I can't take the facilities of .NET or Java as a whole. It's sad really that the PHP community isn't large enough to keep up. I too how ze2 will justify any code i've written, but I look now upon it as a very large waste. It's unfortunate. Too bad people are addressing the wrong problem. The greatest appeal of Java and .Net for many companies is that unlike with PHP, they offer more perspectives of profiting from investing on them. PHP has the bad fame of being something that only poor people use. You don't see big names being advertised to use PHP that would clear that bad fame of PHP. Regards, Manuel Lemos -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] C++ Class Wrapping
Can you use C++ however? I'm very interested in writing/using a standard w3c binding for DOM XML - Original Message - From: Daniel Lorch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: medvitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] C++ Class Wrapping Hi, Is there a way to wrap existing c++ classes into a PHP class (via an extension) ? This usually happens by writing an extension for PHP, although C is the common language to do this: http://www.php.net/manual/en/zend.php -daniel -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] C++ Class Wrapping
Can you use C++ however? I'm very interested in writing/using a standard w3c binding for DOM XML - Original Message - From: Daniel Lorch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: medvitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] C++ Class Wrapping Hi, Is there a way to wrap existing c++ classes into a PHP class (via an extension) ? This usually happens by writing an extension for PHP, although C is the common language to do this: http://www.php.net/manual/en/zend.php -daniel -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] domxml nightmare and suggestion
I would like to do this if I have the time. As mentioned, i'm working on a project that needs the latest version of PHP. If I could participate in this to make it happen much sooner, I'd be happy to. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: medvitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] domxml nightmare and suggestion On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, medvitz wrote: Actually, I'd rather see a w3c DOM compliant module than a makeshift DOM, which is what DOMXML seems to be. This would make a lot of things a lot easier, not to mention standard Then fix the DomXML extension we have now, but also think about Backward Compability. The last thing we're waiting for is yet another extension with another API. Derick Medvitz Lukas Schroeder wrote: On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 12:41:44PM +0200, Christian Stocker wrote: top issues... Personally I don't have much problems with this extension, but missing docu and the API as a moving target, is something which worries a lot of people. But one of the weakest things about domxml is IMHO that it promises a DOM-API, which it does not provide very consitently and a lot of functionality is still missing. With all this points, i'd like to start a discussion about starting from scratch with the DOM-API in PHP. Maybe creating a new extension to avoid problems with all the people using domxml already (and therefore not relying on keeping the old API). Ideas, thoughts, etc? i'd rather see an effort of finally getting domxml itself into a mature state. it's about time, imho. regarding the api, it's not that people could/should have relied upon a stable domxml api. it's _still_ experimental and marked as such. i'm running a patched[1] version of domxml for quite some time for development to get the functionality i need(ed), too. let's whip this beast into shape. [1] for patches see http://www.azzit.de/patches/php4/ regards, -lukas -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php --- Did I help you? Consider a gift: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/registry/SLCB276UZU8B --- PHP: Scripting the Web - [EMAIL PROTECTED] All your branches are belong to me! SRM: Script Running Machine - www.vl-srm.net --- -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] New DOM 4.1.2 Documentation
Is there any detailed documentation or anyone I can contact for the new version of PHP DOM XML? I know this might not pertain to this mailing list,but I know the PHP DOM uses libxml and I would like to get in contact with the people who update this extension. It is very urgent as well asimportant. Recently as new versions of PHP have been released, the DOM extension in PHP keeps changing without updates to the documentation. It's listed asexperimental, but one of my questions is why haven't the developers just implemented it as it is found on many Java implementations? They seem to bere-inventing the wheel and making mistakes and I would like to help resolve these issues so that PHP developers can finally rely on it rather thanlooking for alternate solutions. Can anyone help out? With Kind Regards Thanks in Advance, Ken
[PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
Hello everyone, I think as we go forward with PHP and as PHP 5 is nearing, shouldn't we planning on developing a PHP Platform? Basically the Java or .NET Platform - a set of stable and well written class libraries in which everyone can use? Classes that make sense for every day and maybe not-so every day PHP development? With .NET and Java out there, PHP is really falling short. It's not even efficient to develop in any more other than that its tools are free. I tried to start such an initiative with eXtremePHP, but only 2 developers go so far. We need a community to help build a large platform that provides classes for everything a PHP developer might need. Why am I saying this? Well, looking at DOM XML, PHP still hasn't gotten it right. Even though there are several great implementations out there in other languages, PHP is slowly building towards those already bugged-out, well written designs. I was recently doing a project and now that PHP 4.1.2 has changed the DOM XML library without making any changes to the documentation, this move seriously messed up my work as well as many others. In my case, I have to use the latest version so I had to migrate a lot of code. I know that the library was considered experimental, but the design decisions were made poorly while they could have just emulated the w3c bindings which were already thought out and used across the world as far as Java and many other languages are concerned. I think the PHP developers and community should start moving towards a mature platform with an even larger goal in mind rather than just a set of functions. With the RAD tools provided by .NET and Java, PHP is giving less and less of a reason for capable developers to use the language because it really only solves the needs of HTML developers that need some dynamic functionality to their sites. I guess the future is in the hands of its leaders to make the right calls. It will be a test to see which calls are made. Ken
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: The PHP Platform
My post was trying to convey that it takes time to do things that *every* developer does. It's not a question whether the developers want them or not, because I'm sure they would. The real issue is that was not one of the goals of PHP and I'm trying to say that now it should be. The tools I'm talking about are not very specific things. Have you ever programmed in Java or .NET? If you have, you'd see that the platform is more sophisticated and powerful, but yet it's actually even getting easier to use. Go to www.extremephp.org and see what I was trying to do. These are things that every developer would learn to use and like as they utilize PHP. Some of these things should be in the core language. The real issue is that PHP needs to take advantage of reuse. The PEAR project and others aren't doing that. For instance, why should I use PHP for an enterprise application when it takes me 3 times as long to make my data layer (assuming I don't have extremephp installed) compared to other technologies? It shouldn't. This is not a post about, Hey, I'm lazy and I want you PHP guys to make everything I need. That's silly. If you look at the code base that I give out freely (plus other things I've done), you can call that far from lazy. I actually find your post rather immature as well assuming that I just want free custom tools. I think you need yourself need think to think about software reuse and improving productivity. It's an important software issue now as it was 20 years ago and I don't see PHP making any leaps towards that. I'm merely stating that it should start to play catchup now, especially with PHP 5 being in development. Regards, Ken - Original Message - From: Jim Winstead [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 4:41 PM Subject: [PHP-DEV] Re: The PHP Platform Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ ... ] because it really only solves the needs of HTML developers that need some dynamic functionality to their sites. [ ... ] what's wrong with that? more generally, why do you expect the developers of php to provide the tools that you want, instead of the ones that they want? jim -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
Hello Richard, I don't think people really understand me correctly. Pear is small in comparison to the Java Platform or the .NET Framework. My library extremephp.org is probably around 4-5 times bigger than PEAR and it's not even close to being finished yet. There could be much more to develop to make PHP an even greater language to use, but it's not keeping up. Ken - Original Message - From: Richard Heyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone, I think as we go forward with PHP and as PHP 5 is nearing, shouldn't we planning on developing a PHP Platform? Basically the Java or .NET Platform - a set of stable and well written class libraries in which everyone can use? Classes that make sense for every day and maybe not-so every day PHP development? With .NET and Java out there, PHP is really falling short. It's not even efficient to develop in any more other than that its tools are free. I tried to start such an initiative with eXtremePHP, but only 2 developers go so far. We need a community to help build a large platform that provides classes for everything a PHP developer might need. http://pear.php.net/ -- Richard Heyes -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
Although your
arguments make sense for speed, this is tradeoff that manyprogrammers are
willing to take. As for taking "tons of time to load",although I have
noticed a large slowdown, it's not critical and nothing abetter server can't
solve if it does become critical.I'd rather develop a website in half
the time and spend more money on aserver than do it slower and harder.
No one wants to work hard.As for the data layer, I think simple calls
like that don't constitute adata layer at all. You still might have
database code all over the website,and many of the related things
likeadding/updating/deleting/searching/whatever on a single entity can be
acrossseveral pages. In my library, I have a concept called "Data
AccessObjects". It makes development of the data layer very easy -
almostmindless as a matter of fact - and I can actually create an entire
tier thatcompletely decouples database calls from application logic
completely. Thisis something pear doesn't do and I think this is
essential for webpagesbecause a) they need to change all the time b)
database code, php code andhtml code on the same page is messy c) this is
how large enterprise systemsneed to be built.I think that should
give you an explanation on why PHP still needs todevelop. If not, then
PHP should outright states its goals and intentionsto everyone because
people like myself who are waiting for things to moveforward (because we
have a lot of code invested into the language already)want to move forward
with it. That just isn't happening from my point ofview.To
argue your point about performance, look at any emerging technology inthe
past. History has shown that coming up with the technical solution
thatworks and solves people's problem is essential. Once something is
in place,then we start looking at how to speed it up. But if we don't
even get tothe point of it working and solving people's problems, then we
aren't goinganyway.Regards,Ken- Original Message
-From: "Ilia A." [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "Ken Egervari" [EMAIL PROTECTED];
"Richard Heyes"[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:48 PMSubject: Re: [PHP-DEV]
The PHP Platform Ken, Many classes and for Java
.NET and even php very own PEAR are librariesof bloat. They
offer some functionality and in exchange take away tremendous amount of
extra resources. That is not to say all those classes andlibraries
are written poorly, many are not, however no matter how good is a
wrapperit will always add slowdowns. In php (at least 4.X)
loading large classes to memory is VERY memorycosuming and loading
huge libraries will put a large strain on system with mediumto heavy
use. Most people do not need PEAR or other assistance libraries for most
oftheir code, especially in PHP where standard functions are VERY
easy to use and their is a function for almost every occasion :)
In many cases, like with database layers you can avoid class by
simplyusing: $db_type = 'mysql_'; or $db_type('pg_');
etc... and then calling php's database manipulation functions with
$db_typeprefix. So, in my opinion creating class libraries
is counter productive in PHP enviroment. It makes sence in C C++
to some degree where to open asocket you need to do a good deal of
work, so a class which accepts a socket domain and returns open
socket may be very useful. But in PHP where everything is already done
for you there is little need for that IMHO. On April 12, 2002
04:53 pm, Ken Egervari wrote: Hello Richard,
I don't think people really understand me correctly. Pear is small
in comparison to the Java Platform or the .NET Framework. My
library extremephp.org is probably around 4-5 times bigger than
PEAR and it'snot even close to being finished yet. There
could be much more to developto make PHP an even greater
language to use, but it's not keeping up.
-- Ilia Alshanetsky FUDforum Developer http://fud.prohost.org/forum/
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
I agree with you friend. Everything is always in beta as far as I amconcerned. Everything evolves. But PEAR has been around for how long now?I think its time it started to evolve a little faster and its goals bere-evaluated. When PHP 5 supports a simular language like Java, there isgoing to be nothing to build from.- Original Message -From: "Tal Peer" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:32 PMSubject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform From you message, it seems like PEAR is finished. PEAR is hardly a betaand IMHO will never be 'finished'. Tal _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: The PHP Platform
Usually that if it ain't broke, don't fix it attritude is just the thing to make a technology less and less useful and eventually it'll be antiquated. Eseentially, it is already is. Don't get me wrong, just because it's out of date doesn't mean it still isn't useful. I just think that even in an opensource community, there would be leaders and people looking towards the future. As for your comments on .NET and Java extensions, if i wanted to use those technologies, I would use them for everything. If someone is using .net, they are probably taking advantage of all the other cool features that it provides. Like I said, I think its time PHP started moving forward and developed a new vision for itself and the community. Ken - Original Message - From: Jim Winstead [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: The PHP Platform Ken Egervari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I actually find your post rather immature as well assuming that I just want free custom tools. I think you need yourself need think to think about software reuse and improving productivity. It's an important software issue now as it was 20 years ago and I don't see PHP making any leaps towards that. I'm merely stating that it should start to play catchup now, especially with PHP 5 being in development. i didn't assume you wanted free custom tools. i guess i overstated my point a bit. let me try to rephrase: why should we work on your grand vision for php's future, instead of the one that we are already collectively following? keep in mind that the following are tremendously lousy reasons: 1. sun and microsoft are doing it. 2. people who aren't already using php won't use php if we don't. 3. people already using php won't use php anymore if we don't. i think you need to learn more about how an open source community functions. how it sets priorities, how it communicates, and how it achieves progress. your we-must-do-this sort of diktat is a futile approach. as to my own feelings of the value of reuse and improving productivity, perhaps i see more value in reusing the components available in the java and .net platforms through technologies like soap, ext/java, and ext/dotnet, rather than cloning them in php. jim -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
Well, my library does compete with PEAR considering that it replaces some of their things. My library is also open-source and I've told them they can add them and they never did. In fact, I wanted that to happen since that would provide more tools to everyone. - Original Message - From: Steve Meyers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform Ken Egervari wrote: I agree with you friend. Everything is always in beta as far as I am concerned. Everything evolves. But PEAR has been around for how long now? I think its time it started to evolve a little faster and its goals be re-evaluated. When PHP 5 supports a simular language like Java, there is going to be nothing to build from. So why are you making a library to compete with PEAR, instead of contributing all of your classes to PEAR? This is open source, after all, you can make a difference in the development of PEAR. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
