Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
symbulos partners wrote: Dear friends, we would like to migrate a server where we host several websites (in virtual hosting) to PHP 5 with Apache 2. Technical support at the hosting provider told us there are still problems about safety of threads on php 5 + Apache 2 (management of memory). They would propose to migrate Apache to the pre-fork version in order to avoid these problems (but we would be unable to use all the features of Apache 2). Is that right? Yes, if you are going to use Apache2, use the prefork MPM. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Jason Barnett wrote: exercise for myself, but then again I don't need to either. ;) This would also be something that would be a great benefit to share with the PHP community if you decide to compile this list of thread-safe extensions. If we could share a bit of the effort with someone else, we would be available (February). Eventually we could host the page on our website, f necessary. We could have a simple php base page where people could flag libraries / sets of functions after checking. A simple table, in order to understand. We could manage it by e-mail eventually. -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
symbulos partners wrote: Jason Barnett wrote: exercise for myself, but then again I don't need to either. ;) This would also be something that would be a great benefit to share with the PHP community if you decide to compile this list of thread-safe extensions. If we could share a bit of the effort with someone else, we would be available (February). Eventually we could host the page on our website, f necessary. We could have a simple php base page where people could flag libraries / sets of functions after checking. A simple table, in order to understand. We could manage it by e-mail eventually. After checking? There is *NO* exhaustive test to do, from everything I've ever heard... Now if you want to come up with a test harness that claims to stress-test some given code-base, with version numbers of all the under-lying code, and hardware, come to think of it, and try to track the amount of testing that has been done, and assign probability curves to the thread-safeness of any given combination... It ain't gonna be no simple table, though, really. You might get somebody to say Core PHP is Thread-safe They might even believe that. They *might* even be right. For their version of PHP. On their OS. Under that *version* of their OS. With their hardware. It don't mean a whole lot to anybody who doesn't have that *exact* same setup. You'd almost have to work out a list of all known variables, and then a weighting system for (number-of-hours-run X number-of-concurrent-processes) multiplied by the server load to give each report a score If I tell you it's been fine on my low-traffic servers, it don't mean squat. If Rasmus tells you PHP X + MySQL Y + OS Z == Good on Yahoo, that has some meaning, but not a whole lot if you change *any* of the variables in the equation. So then, you'd have a very large (and quite sparse, probably) matrix of the probability that any given combination of every software package (and hardware?) is thread-safe. Not saying it's not a Good Idea, nor that you shouldn't be doing this: I just want you to understand that you've severely under-estimated the scale and scope of the problem to be addressed, and have a concomitant simplisitic design going here. Make it complex enough to be useful, and make it easy to search and report on various combinations, it could be a real boon. But if your site just says PHP 4.1.3 + MySQL 3.23.4 == Good... I'm not going to put much faith in that for thread-safety. But maybe I'm just a negative guy :-) -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
We know that. We understood all of that. What we need to know is: 1)Are php core function thread safe? 2)Does php have internal mechanisms in php for protecting thread safety (memory leak, threads overwriting memory in use by another thread, blah, blah)? 3)Are the function in this LIMITED LIST thread safe? (This is THE LIMITED LIST extracted from the list of the functions in section VI, the one you requested, the one R.Lynch requested). Since we sent the list with the functions we need already 2 times, would you please be so gentle as to answer now? Apache-specific Functions Array Functions Calendar Functions Class/Object Functions CURL, Client URL Library Functions Cyrus IMAP administration Functions Date and Time Functions Direct IO Functions Directory Functions DOM Functions DOM XML Functions Error Handling and Logging Functions File Alteration Monitor Functions Filesystem Functions Forms Data Format Functions FTP Functions Function Handling Functions Gettext GMP Functions HTTP Functions Image Functions IMAP, POP3 and NNTP Functions PHP / Java Integration LDAP Functions Mail Functions Mathematical Functions Multibyte String Functions Mimetype Functions Miscellaneous Functions MySQL Functions Improved MySQL Extension Network Functions Unified ODBC Functions Object Aggregation/Composition Functions Object property and method call overloading OpenSSL Functions Output Control Functions PDF functions PHP OptionsInformation PostgreSQL Functions Program Execution Functions Session Handling Functions Shared Memory Functions SimpleXML functions SQLite Shockwave Flash Functions Standard PHP Library (SPL) Functions String Functions URL Functions Variable Functions vpopmail Functions XML Parser Functions XML-RPC Functions XSL functions XSLT Functions -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Symbulos Partners wrote: We know that. We understood all of that. Let me ask you this. Do you know what underlying libraries are associated with the extensions you want to use (in your list below)? If you do then you *should* be able to google for each library individually and see if that library is thread safe. I have not gone through this exercise for myself, but then again I don't need to either. ;) This would also be something that would be a great benefit to share with the PHP community if you decide to compile this list of thread-safe extensions. What we need to know is: 1)Are php core function thread safe? I have read somewhere that this is true, but I have absolutely no firsthand experience in PHP's source to tell you if this is the case. Rasmus will know (whistling and walking away...) 2)Does php have internal mechanisms in php for protecting thread safety (memory leak, threads overwriting memory in use by another thread, blah, blah)? Yes it does... IIRC check out TSRM in the source. 3)Are the function in this LIMITED LIST thread safe? (This is THE LIMITED LIST extracted from the list of the functions in section VI, the one you requested, the one R.Lynch requested). Since we sent the list with the functions we need already 2 times, would you please be so gentle as to answer now? I have no idea. ;) But I use a lot of these functions as well and it would be good to know. Apache-specific Functions Array Functions Calendar Functions Class/Object Functions CURL, Client URL Library Functions Cyrus IMAP administration Functions Date and Time Functions Direct IO Functions Directory Functions DOM Functions DOM XML Functions To anyone reading this, remember he's using PHP 4.3.x but he's asking about PHP 5.x. So I guess the question there: is libxml2 thread-safe? Error Handling and Logging Functions File Alteration Monitor Functions Filesystem Functions Forms Data Format Functions FTP Functions Function Handling Functions Gettext GMP Functions HTTP Functions Image Functions IMAP, POP3 and NNTP Functions PHP / Java Integration LDAP Functions Mail Functions Mathematical Functions Multibyte String Functions Mimetype Functions Miscellaneous Functions MySQL Functions Improved MySQL Extension Network Functions Unified ODBC Functions Object Aggregation/Composition Functions Object property and method call overloading OpenSSL Functions Output Control Functions PDF functions PHP OptionsInformation PostgreSQL Functions Program Execution Functions Session Handling Functions Shared Memory Functions Good lord I would hope so :) SimpleXML functions SQLite Shockwave Flash Functions Standard PHP Library (SPL) Functions String Functions URL Functions Variable Functions vpopmail Functions XML Parser Functions XML-RPC Functions XSL functions XSLT Functions All of the XSL stuff should fall under the umbrella of is libxml2 thread safe? since we use that library for XSL functionality too. One final note. I notice that you make of the PHP4 XML libraries? Well, there was a break in this functionality in PHP5. If you used the almost W3C compliant domxml functions then you should be ok. If not, well, you might be in for some rewriting there. :( http://php.net/manual/en/ref.dom.php -- Teach a person to fish... Ask smart questions: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html PHP Manual: http://php.net/manual/ php-general archives: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005, Jason Barnett wrote: Symbulos Partners wrote: We know that. We understood all of that. Let me ask you this. Do you know what underlying libraries are associated with the extensions you want to use (in your list below)? If you do then you *should* be able to google for each library individually and see if that library is thread safe. I have not gone through this exercise for myself, but then again I don't need to either. ;) This would also be something that would be a great benefit to share with the PHP community if you decide to compile this list of thread-safe extensions. Keep in mind that it isn't that simple. If it was we would have done this long ago. Whether something is threadsafe depends on a lot of factors. The author of a certain library might tell you his library is threadsafe, but depending on how you compile it and which libc you are using it may or may not be threadsafe. So, while one person's library on his platform will work perfectly and be threadsafe, that exact same library on another platform may not be. Some examples of this are the c-client (imap) library and the postgresql library. Both may or may not be threadsafe depending on your platform and how you build them. Your crypt() libc call isn't threadsafe, for example. libpq used to call crypt() if you used the PASSWD() function in an SQL query. Now you might tick along for months without ever having 2 threads execute the SQL query that calls PASSWD() at exactly the same time, but then suddenly your lucky karma runs out and they do. You end up with 2 records in your database that are corrupted. The PostgreSQL guys fixed this, I think, but prior to this they were saying that libpq was threadsafe. The problem is always in code you don't control. They didn't control the libc crypt implementation and it bit them. I guarantee that there are dozens if not hundreds of examples of problems like this in just about every library, and probably a few left in PHP itself still. Unless someone hits a problem (which is likely) and recognizes it for what it is (which is unlikely) and informs the developers these tricky thread problems are never going to be fixed. I still content that humans are simply not smart enough to write threadsafe code for a largescale heterogenious project such as PHP with all the platforms and libraries that all have to interact perfectly. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:15:43 +, symbulos partners [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We know that. We understood all of that. What we need to know is: Please, do not assimilate me. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Apologies for the last e-mail concerning (Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33)
Plan on doing a LOT of testing -- My guesses on the probability of thread-safety were just that: GUESSES Thread-safe bugs are the kind of thing that can remain hidden for *YEARS* or even *DECADES* and not get triggered but once in a million executions of your scripts. By definition, they rely on *TWO* copies of your script running in parallel and timing is everything. For example, suppose your script is like this: ?php /* LOTS OF CODE */ thread_bug_function(); /* LOTS OF CODE */ ? You can run that script a million times, and nothing will go wrong. You can even run your web-server with multiple copies of your PHP script running a million times and nothing will go wrong. Let's examine the case of just *TWO* Apache children processes, running your script in parallel. Depending on when one script starts, when it gets interrupted by the OS so other processes can run, and when it re-starts, you have *THREE* possible cases: (where the time at which something is run is indicated in a vertical manner. CASE #1: APACHE CHILD ONEAPACHE CHILD TWO ?php ?php /* LOTS OF CODE */ /* LOTS OF CODE */ thread_bug_function(); thread_bug_function(); /* LOTS OF CODE */ /* LOTS OF CODE */ ? ? CASE #2: APACHE CHILD ONEAPACHE CHILD TWO ?php ?php /* LOTS OF CODE */ /* LOTS OF CODE */ thread_bug_function(); /* LOTS OF CODE */ thread_bug_function(); /* LOTS OF CODE */ ? ? CASE #3: APACHE CHILD ONEAPACHE CHILD TWO ?php ?php /* LOTS OF CODE */ /* LOTS OF CODE */ thread_bug_function(); thread_bug_function(); /* LOTS OF CODE */ /* LOTS OF CODE */ ? ? CASE #1 and CASE #2 cause no problem at all -- The 'thread_bug_function' doesn't run at the same time in one child as the other child, because of the timing -- it runs BEFORE or AFTER the same function in the other child. CASE #3 will crash big-time, because the thread-bug got executed at the SAME TIME in BOTH children. But here's the thing: The *larger* your code base, the better the odds are that CASE #1 and CASE #2 will happen, because there is so much going on in the /* LOTS OF CODE */ sections. The ONLY time the bug is triggered is when the two scripts happen to try to execute the buggy line AT THE SAME TIME. So CASE #3 is super super super rare. And it gets more and more rare as you add more and more code (yours or the PHP Modules you are asking about) to your project. The more you think about this, the more you'll realize just how impossible a question you are posing, and just how complicated you are making your server by using threads. There is NO PRACTICAL WAY to systematically test for a thread bug. Only disciplined coding by experienced software developers will avoid thread bugs -- and even that is hardly a given So you're really really really going out on a limb to use the threads. If you *NEED* the threads, you are going to have to pay a heavy heavy heavy price in doing a *TON* of testing under heavy load servers, with as much variance in timing of script start/end as you can introduce. Every line of code you add, and every Module you load in to add functionality/features will GEOMETRICALLY INCREASE your risk and the need for testing. The reason you kept getting bad answers, or answer at all, is you kept asking a bad question :-) Things to consider: #1. Do you really *NEED* threads? #2. If you *DO* need them, can you segment your application and modularize and isolate the thread usage to a single server, or a single body of code, or an isolated case that will be called rarely or ??? #3. Do you have the resources to run a billion tests? If you need threads, and you can't isolate them to a sandbox, and you don't have the resources for a billion tests, QUIT NOW. You will save yourself a ton of money and frustration by not tackling an insurmountable project that will ruin you. A man's got to know his limitations -- Dirty Harry symbulos partners wrote: I apologise for the last e-mail concerning this subject, but I had not received your e-mail back. Thanks for the explanations, they will be very useful. -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Greg Donald wrote: On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:15:43 +, symbulos partners [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We know that. We understood all of that. What we need to know is: Please, do not assimilate me. Who's going to clean up this Mt. Dew that I just shot out of my nose? *L* -- John C. Nichel ÜberGeek KegWorks.com 716.856.9675 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Richard Lynch wrote: If you re-read the previous emails from Rasmus, you will find that these questions are already answered within them. So I'm going to go on at length here telling you (again) what you don't want to hear. In my opinion, the answer some libraries are thread safe, some are not is generic. The answer the libraries in chapter VI. Function Reference of official PHP Manual version 03-01-2005 is specific. Now I think I understand the answer a bit better. We did not understand if you were talking about the libraries we develop, the libraries you develop, the libraries everybody else develops, commercial libraries, whatever library you can think of. Not all the libraries are indeed listed in the manual. I apologise for being stupid and hard of understanding. If you can narrow your focus down a bit from *ALL* of Section VI to *just* the libraries you *really* need, you might get the answer you want to hear: Oh, those are all thread-safe. Here some more specific questions. 1)Is the core of php thread safe? That is, are the function which do not need external libraries thread safe? 2)Here is the list of the function sets we need to use, from Section VI Apache-specific Functions Array Functions Calendar Functions Class/Object Functions CURL, Client URL Library Functions Cyrus IMAP administration Functions Date and Time Functions Direct IO Functions Directory Functions DOM Functions DOM XML Functions Error Handling and Logging Functions File Alteration Monitor Functions Filesystem Functions Forms Data Format Functions FTP Functions Function Handling Functions Gettext GMP Functions HTTP Functions Image Functions IMAP, POP3 and NNTP Functions PHP / Java Integration LDAP Functions Mail Functions Mathematical Functions Multibyte String Functions Mimetype Functions Miscellaneous Functions MySQL Functions Improved MySQL Extension Network Functions Unified ODBC Functions Object Aggregation/Composition Functions Object property and method call overloading OpenSSL Functions Output Control Functions PDF functions PHP OptionsInformation PostgreSQL Functions Program Execution Functions Session Handling Functions Shared Memory Functions SimpleXML functions SQLite Shockwave Flash Functions Standard PHP Library (SPL) Functions String Functions URL Functions Variable Functions vpopmail Functions XML Parser Functions XML-RPC Functions XSL functions XSLT Functions We would like to know if they are thread safe to a level which is suitable for production environment. 3)Are there internal mechanisms in php for protecting thread safety (memory leak, threads overwriting memory in use by another thread, blah, blah)? We hope these questions are specific enough. -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
* Symbulos Partners [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Richard Lynch wrote: If you re-read the previous emails from Rasmus, you will find that these questions are already answered within them. So I'm going to go on at length here telling you (again) what you don't want to hear. In my opinion, the answer some libraries are thread safe, some are not is generic. The answer the libraries in chapter VI. Function Reference of official PHP Manual version 03-01-2005 is specific. Now I think I understand the answer a bit better. We did not understand if you were talking about the libraries we develop, the libraries you develop, the libraries everybody else develops, commercial libraries, whatever library you can think of. Not all the libraries are indeed listed in the manual. The thing is, the function sets listed in Section VI are not all 'core' PHP -- in other words, if you were to do a vanilla install of PHP on a machine, you wouldn't necessarily get all of these functions. Why? Because most of the sets rely on... drum roll here... external libraries. And it is the external libraries that PHP cannot guarantee are threadsafe. As an example of some function sets requiring external libraries: snip 2)Here is the list of the function sets we need to use, from Section VI Calendar Functions Depends on libical CURL, Client URL Library Functions Depends on libcurl Cyrus IMAP administration Functions Depends on cyrus imap libraries DOM Functions DOM XML Functions Depends on libxml Image Functions Depends on GD, which has optional dependencies on libjpeg, libpng, libungif... IMAP, POP3 and NNTP Functions Depends on uw-imap cclient LDAP Functions Depends on openldap libraries I could keep going on, but hopefully you get the idea. So, what Rasmus and Richard were saying is, if you can narrow down *which* function sets you need and are compiling in to your PHP install, you'll get a much better answer to the question of whether or not the libraries you're utilizing with PHP are threadsafe. But just saying all functions referenced in the manual is going to give you the answer, probably not. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Webmaster and IT Specialist | http://www.garden.org National Gardening Association| http://www.kidsgardening.com 802-863-5251 x156 | http://nationalgardenmonth.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I thought I just explained that. The problem is that the dozens of libraries you are likely to link into you Apache+PHP system may or may not be threadsafe. We are only thinking of using standard libraries,that is the libraries which allow us to access the functions listed in chapter VI. Function Reference of official PHP Manual version 03-01-2005. Are these libraries all thread safe? If not, is there a list explaining which libraries are thread safe (not thread safe)? -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
symbulos partners wrote: Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: I thought I just explained that. The problem is that the dozens of libraries you are likely to link into you Apache+PHP system may or may not be threadsafe. We are only thinking of using standard libraries,that is the libraries which allow us to access the functions listed in chapter VI. Function Reference of official PHP Manual version 03-01-2005. Are these libraries all thread safe? No. If not, is there a list explaining which libraries are thread safe (not thread safe)? No. If you re-read the previous emails from Rasmus, you will find that these questions are already answered within them. So I'm going to go on at length here telling you (again) what you don't want to hear. If you can narrow your focus down a bit from *ALL* of Section VI to *just* the libraries you *really* need, you might get the answer you want to hear: Oh, those are all thread-safe. But there is NO WAY you'll hear that any time soon for *ALL* of Section VI. There is no list of which ones are thread-safe -- Actually, it would be virtually impossible to compile such a list. It's more like a probability game. We're pretty sure PHP and MySQL are thread-safe, because they are used so extensively on so many high-volume sites that they'd have blown up already if they were not thread-safe. If you *HAD* to make a list, you'd be best started by listing the most popular Modules, and assuming that the ones near the very top of the list were probably thread-safe, and the ones near the bottom were most likely not thread-safe (or, at least, completely untested for all practical purposes) But you're not going to find anybody willing to stake their reputation on a list of what is or isn't thread-safe because there's NO WAY [*] to prove it. * Some computer scientist mathematician may have some algorithm to prove a process thread-safe, but not in any practical sense that can be applied to the real-life code that encompasses PHP. -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Dear friends, we would like to migrate a server where we host several websites (in virtual hosting) to PHP 5 with Apache 2. Technical support at the hosting provider told us there are still problems about safety of threads on php 5 + Apache 2 (management of memory). They would propose to migrate Apache to the pre-fork version in order to avoid these problems (but we would be unable to use all the features of Apache 2). Is that right? Has anybody switched to that combination already? Any suggestion about recommended php, Apache versions? -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
symbulos partners wrote: Dear friends, we would like to migrate a server where we host several websites (in virtual hosting) to PHP 5 with Apache 2. Technical support at the hosting provider told us there are still problems about safety of threads on php 5 + Apache 2 (management of memory). They would propose to migrate Apache to the pre-fork version in order to avoid these problems (but we would be unable to use all the features of Apache 2). Is that right? Has anybody switched to that combination already? Any suggestion about recommended php, Apache versions? You want to stay away from the threaded MPM's in Apache2. Which specific Apache2 features are you looking for? -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: You want to stay away from the threaded MPM's in Apache2. Why? -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Symbulos Partners wrote: Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: You want to stay away from the threaded MPM's in Apache2. Why? Which versions would be recommended then? We would like to be able to use the new PHP object model, and at the same time use features like the possibility of running scriping languages using a lower rights users, as in apache 2. -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
symbulos partners wrote: Symbulos Partners wrote: Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: You want to stay away from the threaded MPM's in Apache2. Why? Which versions would be recommended then? We would like to be able to use the new PHP object model, and at the same time use features like the possibility of running scriping languages using a lower rights users, as in apache 2. How does Apache2 let you do that? As far as threading goes, it is simply not a good idea for a large complex system. There are too many moving parts to ensure that everything will be threadsafe. Most of the parts are actually threadsafe, but the huge problem is that we don't have a clear picture of which libraries out there aren't, and it is nearly impossible to debug a thread-related race condition. These race conditions tend to only happen under heavy load and only in certain conditions so they aren't reproducable which makes our job of tracking them down that much harder. People have reported success with PHP under Apache2 with a threaded MPM so you can give it a try and see how it goes. It may work perfectly, or it may work perfectly for weeks and then suddenly fall over. Unless you really know what you are doing we are not going to be able to help you with any occasional crashes. I am a big believer in keeping the base infrastructure as simple as possible. You are going to layer a lot of complexity on top of Apache and PHP in the form of your web applications. You want to make sure that your building blocks are rock solid so if you see a problem you can be confident that it is something you did wrong. If your base is shaky everything you build on top of it is going to be that much more unstable. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: As far as threading goes, it is simply not a good idea for a large complex system. I do not understand why, probably because I am not well prepared. Can you explain me? As far as I know, threading should be a noticeable improvement in case of large systems. Is there something in the implementation of PHP 5 which does not allow for safe threading? If so, what it is? I am a big believer in keeping the base infrastructure as simple as possible. You are going to layer a lot of complexity on top of Apache and PHP in the form of your web applications. You want to make sure that your building blocks are rock solid so if you see a problem you can be confident that it is something you did wrong. If your base is shaky everything you build on top of it is going to be that much more unstable. I totally agree. Our problem is that we want to use the new php 5 object model, and at the same time would like to move to Apache 2 for several different reasons. There are 4 alternative solutions 0)php 5 + Apache 2 1)php 5 + Apache 2 pre-fork (not totally satisfactory, but better than have a system that is unstable) 2)php 5 + Apache 1.3.33 (which is not totally satisfactory, less than 0,1 in any case, but better than have a system that is unstable) 3)php 4 + Apache 2 (which is not totally satisfactory, less than 0,1,2 in any case, better than have a system that is unstable) which one does satisfy your condition of rock solid foundation? Or shall we stick with php 4 + Apache 1.3.33, which is VERY unsatisfactory because we cannot use the new object model? The server is a production server, so we must have rock solid solutions on it. Thanks in advance. -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
Symbulos Partners wrote: There are 4 alternative solutions 0)php 5 + Apache 2 1)php 5 + Apache 2 pre-fork (not totally satisfactory, but better than have a system that is unstable) 2)php 5 + Apache 1.3.33 (which is not totally satisfactory, less than 0,1 in any case, but better than have a system that is unstable) 3)php 4 + Apache 2 (which is not totally satisfactory, less than 0,1,2 in any case, better than have a system that is unstable) which one does satisfy your condition of rock solid foundation? Or shall we stick with php 4 + Apache 1.3.33, which is VERY unsatisfactory because we cannot use the new object model? The server is a production server, so we must have rock solid solutions on it. php5 + Apache 1.3.33 works just fine, have you tried that? I would DEFINITELY wait until PHP 5.1 to put it into production though, there are a number of features being added, as well as the time spent testing and developing php 5 will help assure its stability as well. If you have the possibility of setting up a test server on another port to test php5 with apache 1.3.33, this will be your safest bet to develop the software you will use without compromising the current setup. You might also experiment with setting up Apache2 on another port, and then once you can be sure that your solution works in Apache and in Apache2, you have the ability to switch back to Apache in the blink of an eye just by modifying which port each process is listening to. It would require maintaining parallel setups for a while, which is a real pain, but you would get the cutting-edge features you are looking for with a safety fallback, which your clients would be looking for. Greg -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
* Symbulos Partners [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: As far as threading goes, it is simply not a good idea for a large complex system. I do not understand why, probably because I am not well prepared. Can you explain me? As far as I know, threading should be a noticeable improvement in case of large systems. Is there something in the implementation of PHP 5 which does not allow for safe threading? If so, what it is? My understanding is that not all of the libraries to which PHP links have been tested with threads -- it's not a PHP issue, per se, but one of PHP extensions. If you know for a fact that the libraries with which you plan to compile PHP *are* threadsafe -- e.g., MySQL -- you're probably okay; if not, better to stick with Apache2's prefork model or stay with Apache1. I am a big believer in keeping the base infrastructure as simple as possible. You are going to layer a lot of complexity on top of Apache and PHP in the form of your web applications. You want to make sure that your building blocks are rock solid so if you see a problem you can be confident that it is something you did wrong. If your base is shaky everything you build on top of it is going to be that much more unstable. I totally agree. Our problem is that we want to use the new php 5 object model, and at the same time would like to move to Apache 2 for several different reasons. There are 4 alternative solutions 0)php 5 + Apache 2 1)php 5 + Apache 2 pre-fork (not totally satisfactory, but better than have a system that is unstable) 2)php 5 + Apache 1.3.33 (which is not totally satisfactory, less than 0,1 in any case, but better than have a system that is unstable) 3)php 4 + Apache 2 (which is not totally satisfactory, less than 0,1,2 in any case, better than have a system that is unstable) which one does satisfy your condition of rock solid foundation? Or shall we stick with php 4 + Apache 1.3.33, which is VERY unsatisfactory because we cannot use the new object model? I *have* seen errors with PHP4 and Apache2, and I doubt these would be any different with PHP5. However, where I work, we're developing on an Apache2 prefork with PHP5, and performance is solid. I did recently see a benchmark of PHP with Apache1 vs PHP with Apache2, however, and it showed that the former outperformed the latter by 27 - 31%: http://ilia.ws/archives/32-Apache-1-vs-Apache-2-Performance.html If performance is less critical than features, then Apache2 will work fine. I guess the big question is: are the features for which you want Apache2 available with the prefork model or not? If not, there's no benefit to going to Apache2 -- and it might make more sense to run multiple servers -- some with Apache1 and PHP5 and others running Apache2 and whatever other modules you need. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Webmaster and IT Specialist | http://www.garden.org National Gardening Association| http://www.kidsgardening.com 802-863-5251 x156 | http://nationalgardenmonth.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
We would really give preference to the possibility of using PHP 5, in order to use the new object model. Is Apache 1 + php 5 rock stable? How are performances? -- symbulos partners -.- symbulos - ethical services for your organisation http://www.symbulos.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
symbulos partners wrote: Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: As far as threading goes, it is simply not a good idea for a large complex system. I do not understand why, probably because I am not well prepared. Can you explain me? As far as I know, threading should be a noticeable improvement in case of large systems. Is there something in the implementation of PHP 5 which does not allow for safe threading? If so, what it is? I thought I just explained that. The problem is that the dozens of libraries you are likely to link into you Apache+PHP system may or may not be threadsafe. It doesn't have much to do with PHP itself. If you are 100% certain that every library you plan on linking in is threadsafe, then go for it. And there is no difference between PHP4 and PHP5 when it comes to a threaded Apache2, so your matrix there doesn't make much sense. Either use Apache1 or Apache2-prefork if you want to make sure you have a robust system. Then choose the version of PHP you prefer after that. For my production servers I use Apache1 and PHP4 currently with new development being done on Apache1-PHP5. I don't have anything that needs any of the features from Apache2. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] migrating to PHP 5 + Apache 2 from PHP 4.3.8 + Apache 1.3.33.
* Symbulos Partners [EMAIL PROTECTED]: We would really give preference to the possibility of using PHP 5, in order to use the new object model. Is Apache 1 + php 5 rock stable? How are performances? I have no benchmarks, but PHP5 has showed itself to be at least as stable as PHP4 on Apache1 in the installations I've used; YMMV. Since most of the applications we develop where I work are relatively short-lived (i.e., execute in small fractions of a second), we haven't noticed any notable performance differences. For what it's worth, this is the combo that most PHP developers (those writing the language) who bother to mention it report using. (Rasmus Lerdorf just said this is what he uses on this very list.) -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Webmaster and IT Specialist | http://www.garden.org National Gardening Association| http://www.kidsgardening.com 802-863-5251 x156 | http://nationalgardenmonth.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
