Re[2]: [PHP] Re: Pirate PHP books online?
Hi John, Tuesday, July 17, 2007, 3:27:16 PM, you wrote: >> Citing a reference in a book to another is not the same as >> reproducing that ENTIRE book wholesale, page for page, illustration >> for illustration. > All right, supposing I do a cut copy paste on a section of a book, > not the whole thing, and send it out to a friend via e-mail. What if > it's 25 percent? 15 percent? A single section of a single chapter. > And what if you put a quote on in. That black and white is blurring > a lot. Maybe we're not oranges to oranges, but certainly we're > getting to orange juice: Technically it has still breached the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act (1988) - from a UK publication at least. I'm sure there is a US equivalent. Open up a book on your (non-digital) book shelf, take a look at that page a couple pages in. Chances are it will tell you all you need to know. Here's an example from a book on my desk: "No part of this book may be reproduced or transmitted in any form by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of the publisher." So no, technically I shouldn't copy and paste it into an email to you. I see nothing blurred about this quite frankly. Cheers, Rich -- Zend Certified Engineer http://www.corephp.co.uk "Never trust a computer you can't throw out of a window" -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re[2]: [PHP] Re: Pirate PHP books online?
Hi John, Tuesday, July 17, 2007, 2:01:42 PM, you wrote: > So it isn't as black and white as you say. There apparently is a > place where you can not only copy, but redistribute, and as long as > you gave proper credit, you don't have to pay. Citing a reference in a book to another is not the same as reproducing that ENTIRE book wholesale, page for page, illustration for illustration. Compare oranges with oranges please. > First off, I'd like to know where you got that 2,000 number. Closest I > could find was 456 on TPB, and I'm guessing that's 456 people that have > downloaded the torrent. Not necessarily 456 that have completely > downloaded the book. I didn't post that figure, but it doesn't matter if the actual numbers are 2000 or just 2, it doesn't change a thing. You said this problem was theoretical, I've proven it blatantly isn't. I am not standing on some pulpit preaching here, I did my fair share of cracking and spreading back in the 8/16 bit day, my slate is far from clean - but the difference is that I *will not* hide behind any 'copyright is flawed' or 'they can afford it' facade. I'm well aware that those actions are illegal, and I loath it when people attempt to argue otherwise. I have far more respect for someone who says "I copied it because I can't afford to buy it". At least they are honest about their dishonesty. Cheers, Rich -- Zend Certified Engineer http://www.corephp.co.uk "Never trust a computer you can't throw out of a window" -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re[2]: [PHP] Re: Pirate PHP books online?
Hi John, Tuesday, July 17, 2007, 1:02:15 PM, you wrote: > Really? Did you cite and pay every source you used in your book? And > what about those of us who downloaded books that we've bought? Neither of these things apply to my rant, don't quote me out of context. > Seriously, I think you need to get a grip yourself. When and if you > become that popular, and when and if PHP becomes that popular, then you > can discuss rampant pirating of PHP books online. But until then, it's > more theoretical. There's nothing theoretical about what is happening today, right this second, and affecting genuine authors as has been demonstrated in this thread (and I'm not talking about myself here): http://marc.info/?l=php-general&m=118462486109342&w=2 The only part of it that could be classed as theoretical is what the net *result* of these actions are, not that it is happening. Cheers, Rich -- Zend Certified Engineer http://www.corephp.co.uk "Never trust a computer you can't throw out of a window" -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re[2]: [PHP] Re: Pirate PHP books online?
Hi Jochem, Monday, July 16, 2007, 6:11:12 PM, you wrote: > no personal attack is intended here ... I hope you don't mind if I > rebutt/discuss, I find it a rather interesting topic :-) Not at all, my original post wasn't meant personally towards you specifically, just in general. > did you look at the list of authors? come on be realistic, the guys > in question are all very successful in their field, to their own > credit ofcourse :-) > at the *very least* they can all afford laptops, internet > connections, webhosting and everthing that goes with it ... unless > of course they are not eating food and/or sleeping in dustbins in > order to be able to finance laptop et al ... which is obviously > rather preposterous I understand the angle, but I don't believe it justifies anything. Two guys write a book, one lives hand to mouth eeking out a meagre existence as best he can, the other is a millionaire without a care in the world. By your logic the value of the work of the pauper is great than that of the millionaire. I just don't agree - they are equal. It's the same logic people apply to software piracy (I'll take this from Microsoft because they can afford it, but I'll buy this $10 shareware app because they're just "the little guy"). It's like some false sense of Robin Hood syndrome or something :) > 1. he chose to write it, the time taken is lost regardless and there > is no guarantee anyone would buy the book regardless of theft. Agreed, but what you cannot factor in here is what he had planned to do with the income from it (perhaps it was his 'retirement' fund? :) > 2. the RAAI-like 'sales lost due to piracy' argument doesn't stand up - I agree, I wasn't going down that route. I don't believe that if 100,000 people pirated it then they lost 100,000 sales. I agree with you that argument is flawed totally and utterly. What I don't disagree with is that it doesn't harm the bottom-line *at all*. > are always exceptions of course) that 'illegal distribution' of > copyrighted content serves to drive interest and to an extent sales > (it's often been cited that people buy music after having been > introduced to it illegally, had they not been introduced in such a > way they would never had come into contact with it - I won't disagree with this, because I'm sure in a lot of cases it is true. What I will disagree with is the assumption that it happens, and that it somehow justifies the taking of the item in the first place. > I believe the same argument holds for books/authors) I don't really - there are plenty of ways for you to check out a book. Hell book shops have entire coffee shops and comfy chairs built into them these days, so you can read pretty much as much of a book as you like before parting with a penny. Equally sites like Safari make reading a book online significantly cheaper than buying it (and saves you some trees in the process ;) - alternatively they can usually read sample chapters on the publishers web sites, perhaps even articles published in magazines (php|a as I'm sure you know publish whole chapters of their nanopress books now and again). What I'm saying is that there IS a way to experience it without taking it wholesale. The same could be argued about music (radio, MTV, borrowing CDs from friends, etc), but let's not go there! :) > this is backward-assed. you can't make choice's for other people - > regardless of the right or wrong of it it's still adds up to forcing > your beliefs upon someone else ... which is something that just > doesn't work in practice (not for long anyway) ... and being all > principled is just plain unpragmatic. It's not forcing anything, it's my right to choose how I want my work distributed and at what price (if any). You have no right to go against that I'm afraid, no matter how you slice the cake. If I want to release the whole thing for free for those that cannot afford the printed version, then so be it - but that isn't a decision you are free to make on my behalf. >> I would never be so two-faced as to rant about pirates and 'stealing' >> software, but I hate with a vengeance those who claim what they've done >> *isn't* stealing. > isn't it great to be so righteous ... personally I don't get the > hatred angle. not that I have been attempting to claim it's not > stealing, as per society's definition, and not that I've been trying > to suggest that abusing people's creative output is a decent thing > to do. > I have been trying to suggest that possibly that the concepts we > currently hold so dearly (IP, copyright, ownership) maybe aren't the > bastion of of light they are made out to be ... maybe there are more > creative ways to share? maybe fear-based protectionism is not > something we benefit from as a group in the long term? This falls into so many different levels though. If someone was simply emailing around a PDF then so be it, no real harm done and as you say, it could lead to more sales eventually, but nothing you could e
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] Re: Pirate PHP books online?
On Monday 16 July 2007 20:51, Richard Davey wrote: > Someone ought to create a 'carbon footprint per email sent' > calculator. Total up how much energy is literally wasted in the > transmission (and consequent receiving) of just one message. I bet if > you add it all up it'd put a printed book, which afterall *can* come > from a sustainable resource, into perspective. I think no matter which way you dice it, sending 1 email is a lot more energy efficient than printing 1 book. Just because the tree itself is renewable, the *energy* used in cutting it down, turning it into paper, turning the paper into a book and all the transporting in between, is most likely not renewable. -- Crayon -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
