Re[2]: The historical roots of our computer terms
I have zero interest in making your documentation "politically correct" that is an agenda of evil wrapped in a delusion of not offending and this discussion could not possibly end soon enough. On 2020-06-08 17:43:19, stse+post...@rootsland.net wrote: On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote: What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international They aren’t. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan. Sorry to ruin your delusion but this is a fallacy. Now, we _do_ have stuff like "shingo ha ao ni narimashita" but that traffic light is categorically green. Under some circumstances, "ao" means "blue" under others it means "green." Please try not to worry about it. For a real delusion, we think we are the only country with 4 seasons.
Re: [External] Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Thanks you!! > On Jun 8, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Wietse Venema wrote: > > Please stop complaining or be deleted. I am not seeing any counter > arguments that haven't already been made in many other project > contexts. > > Wietse
Re: [External] Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Please stop complaining or be deleted. I am not seeing any counter arguments that haven't already been made in many other project contexts. Wietse
Re: [External] Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 6/8/2020 9:54 AM, vi...@vheuser.com wrote: > > On 2020/06/08 09:31 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: >> On 6/8/2020 9:06 AM, John Dale wrote: >>> Why does this agitate people? Because if the time spend on this >>> change had been used to fix an actual deficiency, people of color who >>> use the software would have been served with value, not just >>> platitudes. >> Sounds like a lot of pontificating. Can you back up this stance with >> your CV related to open source software, please? >> >> Are you a committer, contributer, supporter, sponsor or member of any >> OSS project or OSS organization? >> > Perfect. > The ad hominem argument fits in perfectly with the rest of this drivel. > The unrestrained snowflakes seeking to harass everyone else off the > list. > Can we get back to work or do we all have to unsubscribe because > of an abusive few? I question why you think you have a seat at the table on the decision-making process for how these open source software's operate? For example, at the ASF, we are not a democracy but a meritocracy. So I am not attacking you but yes, I am questioning your merit to speak on the matter. Lots of people have ideas and thoughts. Very few people take action like Wietse and do the work. So to me, your opinion on the change compared with Wietse's opinion are not equal. You may look at this as an ad hominem. I look at it as establishing whether you are or are not a subject matter expect in the field of OSS and giving you the opportunity to establish why your opinion should be taken seriously. Regards, KAM
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
I'm sorry I failed to get the last message. Please resend -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Re: [External] Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 09:54, vi...@vheuser.com wrote: > PS Red-list offends native Americans and Green-list offends > environmentalists. And yellow and brown are out. How about mauve and teal? Or, maybe we get back to this issue after solving world hunger and homelessness. -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain System Administrator, Vex.Net http://www.Vex.Net/ IM:da...@vybenetworks.com VoIP: sip:da...@vex.net
Re: [External] Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020/06/08 09:31 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: On 6/8/2020 9:06 AM, John Dale wrote: Why does this agitate people? Because if the time spend on this change had been used to fix an actual deficiency, people of color who use the software would have been served with value, not just platitudes. Sounds like a lot of pontificating. Can you back up this stance with your CV related to open source software, please? Are you a committer, contributer, supporter, sponsor or member of any OSS project or OSS organization? Regards, KAM Perfect. The ad hominem argument fits in perfectly with the rest of this drivel. The unrestrained snowflakes seeking to harass everyone else off the list. Can we get back to work or do we all have to unsubscribe because of an abusive few? PS Red-list offends native Americans and Green-list offends environmentalists.
Can that discussion please stop or go private? was Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Wietse Venema has stated that he would implement (some variant of) the original request and asked twice for the on-list discussion to stop. At this stage, I believe it is pointless, and all arguments for or against have been made several times already. Can we please return to on-topic matters?
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Monday, 8 June 2020 16.37.08 EEST Ansgar Wiechers wrote: > On 2020-06-08 John Dale wrote: > > Why does this agitate people? > > Because the whole Political Correctness/Social Justice thing has > devolved into a religion. Thus all heathens must convert to this faith > or burn at the stake. > I'm sort of interested what will evolve out of whitehat, greyhat and blackhat. Best regards, Jukka Palko
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 John Dale wrote: > Why does this agitate people? Because the whole Political Correctness/Social Justice thing has devolved into a religion. Thus all heathens must convert to this faith or burn at the stake. Regards Ansgar Wiechers -- "Abstractions save us time working, but they don't save us time learning." --Joel Spolsky
Re: [External] Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 6/8/2020 9:06 AM, John Dale wrote: > Why does this agitate people? Because if the time spend on this > change had been used to fix an actual deficiency, people of color who > use the software would have been served with value, not just platitudes. Sounds like a lot of pontificating. Can you back up this stance with your CV related to open source software, please? Are you a committer, contributer, supporter, sponsor or member of any OSS project or OSS organization? Regards, KAM
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Why does this agitate people? Because if the time spend on this change had been used to fix an actual deficiency, people of color who use the software would have been served with value, not just platitudes. On 6/8/20 6:49 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote: On 2020-06-07 21:27, Ruben Safir wrote: On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 08:43:08PM -0400, Phil Stracchino wrote: On the other, it is difficult to argue that the terms master/slave are *not* problematic. I'm quite certain they were not *chosen* with any malicious intent. Nevertheless... They ARE Masters and Slaves.. and it not in any way shape or form problematic. One is the MASTER, and the others are the SLAVES...that do whatever the Master says. That is 100% correct technological description It is technologically correct, yes. It is *also* culturally problematic in a nation which has deep racial tensions, a large portion of its population descended from people brought here against their will as slaves, and a vocal white-supremacist minority who'd like nothing better than to bring it all back. The technical accuracy of the roles does not refute this. In my primary field, the database world, the term "replication slave" is being widely replaced by "read replica". It serves the same purpose and is no less accurate.
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the actual master databases and slave databases? Regardless of what they're called, there is still subservience represented inherently. In all seriousness, racial tensions can be manufactured when no racism actually exists. There is no racism inherent in the database replication nomenclature. Yet, we see that folks are made to believe they should be concerned about racism instead of fixing a bug. For what it's worth, whole-cloth change in the name of the master/slave replication nomenclature will cause bugs, cost money, and make people believe there is racism when there is not. Very costly. On 6/8/20 6:49 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote: On 2020-06-07 21:27, Ruben Safir wrote: On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 08:43:08PM -0400, Phil Stracchino wrote: On the other, it is difficult to argue that the terms master/slave are *not* problematic. I'm quite certain they were not *chosen* with any malicious intent. Nevertheless... They ARE Masters and Slaves.. and it not in any way shape or form problematic. One is the MASTER, and the others are the SLAVES...that do whatever the Master says. That is 100% correct technological description It is technologically correct, yes. It is *also* culturally problematic in a nation which has deep racial tensions, a large portion of its population descended from people brought here against their will as slaves, and a vocal white-supremacist minority who'd like nothing better than to bring it all back. The technical accuracy of the roles does not refute this. In my primary field, the database world, the term "replication slave" is being widely replaced by "read replica". It serves the same purpose and is no less accurate.
Re: [External] Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 6/8/2020 8:37 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote: > The color is widely and somewhat sardonically known as 'bleen' or 'grue'. See, that's just wrong. We all know what a Grue is... Regards, KAM https://zork.fandom.com/wiki/Grue
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-07 21:27, Ruben Safir wrote: > On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 08:43:08PM -0400, Phil Stracchino wrote: >> On the other, it is difficult to argue that the terms master/slave are >> *not* problematic. I'm quite certain they were not *chosen* with any >> malicious intent. Nevertheless... > > They ARE Masters and Slaves.. and it not in any way shape or form > problematic. > > One is the MASTER, and the others are the SLAVES...that do whatever the > Master says. > > That is 100% correct technological description It is technologically correct, yes. It is *also* culturally problematic in a nation which has deep racial tensions, a large portion of its population descended from people brought here against their will as slaves, and a vocal white-supremacist minority who'd like nothing better than to bring it all back. The technical accuracy of the roles does not refute this. In my primary field, the database world, the term "replication slave" is being widely replaced by "read replica". It serves the same purpose and is no less accurate. -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Communications ph...@caerllewys.net p...@co.ordinate.org Landline: +1.603.293.8485 Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 04:43, Stephan Seitz wrote: > On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote: >> What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty >> international. > > They aren’t. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan. Well, sort of. Blue has a particular cultural significance in Japan, and Japanese traffic lights are a very bluish-green color which the Japanese government refused to change, but officially declared to be "green" in order to comply with international law. Most people wouldn't really call it blue either, but it's closer to most people's idea of blue than to green. The color is widely and somewhat sardonically known as 'bleen' or 'grue'. -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Communications ph...@caerllewys.net p...@co.ordinate.org Landline: +1.603.293.8485 Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote: >What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty >international. They arenât. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan. Stephan -- |If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot it.|
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote: >What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty >international. They arenât. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan. Stephan -- |If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot it.|
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote: What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. They aren’t. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan. Stephan -- |If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot it.|
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
m...@junc.eu, please see the screenshot above, you have also sent message repeatly. maybe the bug of postfix-users mailing list? regards m...@junc.eu wrote: > On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: > > you repeatly send the same mail :/ > ATT1.HTML Description: Binary data
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
This message contains attachment 2 of 2. See message 83 for further information. JCMCPJGGFKPIGHOM.PNG Description: Binary data
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
m...@junc.eu, please see the screenshot above, you have also sent message repeatly. maybe the bug of postfix-users mailing list? regards m...@junc.eu wrote: On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote: you repeatly send the same mail :/
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, > Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context > and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using > black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English > readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hi Wietse, Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English readers. What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty international. Groetjes Claus -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 6/6/20 10:54 PM, @lbutlr wrote: > Yes. This. Though I do think that having a casual and constant reinforcement > that black == bad helps people justify their racist beliefs. No it doesn't and black doesn't equal bad, although dark does... and for good reason, because darkness hides things and conceals things and has a lot of bad things happen in the dark. So reprogramming reality is, IMO, stupid. Actually, not just in my opinion. It is stupid. We shall now rip the plague of darkness not ripped out of the bible, and blackhole will not be not black, although they ARE black, but lets call them green. And the blackness of the night will now be prohibited prose, and the dark side of the moon will not be called the colorless side of the moon... etc etc etc etc. It is BS. and after listening to and being subjected to months of poltical BS from our supposed leaders, my fill for newspeak has reached its limit. Soon we will not be allowed to have white hat hackers. It was always interesting and purposeful that George Lucus made storm troopers white. I you forget that Black is often identified with being cool, and sleek, and steely, and sexy. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
"That is 100% correct technological description" In Object Oriented Programming nomenclature, Blacklist and Master/Slave are both "cohesive"! On 6/7/20 7:27 PM, Ruben Safir wrote: That is 100% correct technological description
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
"It is a small group of international fanatics" Somebody's tuned-in. ;) John On 6/7/20 7:29 PM, Ruben Safir wrote: It is a small group of international fanatics
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 09:50:27PM +0200, Fulvio Scapin wrote: > Hello. > > With a prospective of non-native English speaker, I believe that, > political correctness aside, a name which does not involve a cultural > reference for the related function to be understood is a welcome > change since If you give this even a moments thought you realize that what you request is IMPOSSIBLE and not desirable. All words serve culture and have no other context and the deeper there cultural context the more powerful and clear they are as words. Words without cultural context are meaningless... as if we don't have enough of that already. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc0ZHsoHAlE
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 02:06:14AM +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Ralph and Nicolas - I fully agree with you both. > > While I can somehow understand American fixations on political correctness, It is not American. It is a small group of international fanatics... in general. > I find it highly inappropriate when Americans want to impose their own > fixations on the whole world. > > An assumption that everybody has to view the political/social issues exactly > like Americans (only some group of Americans, in fact), and find the same > things important that are important to Americans (again, only some > Americans) is just offending to non-Americans. > > Some Americans may be hyper-sensitive to the word "black", but rest of the > world generally has absolutely no issues with that word. > > Do you realize this? > -- > Regards, >Jaroslaw Rafa >r...@rafa.eu.org > -- > "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there > was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 08:43:08PM -0400, Phil Stracchino wrote: > On 2020-06-07 14:46, Laura Smith wrote: > >> The point here is > >> that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could > >> be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more > >> interested in participating. > > > > > > Give me a break. > > > > Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist in computing making black folks feel > > excluded ? > > > > For heavens sake ! Talk about clutching at straws in your argument. > > I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I consider the terms > whitelist and blacklist (and blackhole) to be entirely neutral. > > On the other, it is difficult to argue that the terms master/slave are > *not* problematic. I'm quite certain they were not *chosen* with any > malicious intent. Nevertheless... > They ARE Masters and Slaves.. and it not in any way shape or form problematic. One is the MASTER, and the others are the SLAVES...that do whatever the Master says. That is 100% correct technological description > > > -- > Phil Stracchino > Babylon Communications > ph...@caerllewys.net > p...@co.ordinate.org > Landline: +1.603.293.8485 > Mobile: +1.603.998.6958 -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 6/6/20 10:54 PM, @lbutlr wrote: > Yes. This. Though I do think that having a casual and constant reinforcement > that black == bad helps people justify their racist beliefs. No it doesn't and black doesn't equal bad, although dark does... and for good reason, because darkness hides things and conceals things and has a lot of bad things happen in the dark. So reprogramming reality is, IMO, stupid. Actually, not just in my opinion. It is stupid. We shall now rip the plague of darkness not ripped out of the bible, and blackhole will not be not black, although they ARE black, but lets call them green. And the blackness of the night will now be prohibited prose, and the dark side of the moon will not be called the colorless side of the moon... etc etc etc etc. It is BS. and after listening to and being subjected to months of poltical BS from our supposed leaders, my fill for newspeak has reached its limit. Soon we will not be allowed to have white hat hackers. It was always interesting and purposeful that George Lucus made storm troopers white. I you forget that Black is often identified with being cool, and sleek, and steely, and sexy. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-07 15:23, Nicolas Kovacs wrote: > > To my European eyes (living in France, born in Austria, Hungarian family) the > American political correctness movement comes close to what the French call > "la > politesse". > > Some nasty form of passive-aggressive mud-wrestling. I agree. I tend to view political correctness as a form of intellectual bullying while simultaneously pretending to the moral high ground. "I will tell you what things you may talk about, but you are not allowed to tell me what I may talk about, because I am in the right, and you are in the wrong." -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Communications ph...@caerllewys.net p...@co.ordinate.org Landline: +1.603.293.8485 Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-07 14:46, Laura Smith wrote: >> The point here is >> that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could >> be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more >> interested in participating. > > > Give me a break. > > Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist in computing making black folks feel > excluded ? > > For heavens sake ! Talk about clutching at straws in your argument. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I consider the terms whitelist and blacklist (and blackhole) to be entirely neutral. On the other, it is difficult to argue that the terms master/slave are *not* problematic. I'm quite certain they were not *chosen* with any malicious intent. Nevertheless... -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Communications ph...@caerllewys.net p...@co.ordinate.org Landline: +1.603.293.8485 Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-07 13:26, Noel Jones wrote:
> With postfix, this is mostly a documentation issue, other than a few
> postscreen parameter names.
>
> I'm not opposed to changing postfix documentation and parameter
> names to refer to {allow,permit} and {deny,reject} using whichever
> verb fits best. This might even make documentation easier to
> understand for non-English speakers.
It's hard to argue against the clarity and neutrality of those terms. I
approve and agree.
--
Phil Stracchino
Babylon Communications
ph...@caerllewys.net
p...@co.ordinate.org
Landline: +1.603.293.8485
Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
May I offer to those who want to continue this off-topic discussion to do it at https://zoom.us/j/99433754361 ? up to 100 participants, no time limits, open for the next few days. It's on my firm. Enjoy. I will be there for the next little while. No reply to the ML, thanks. -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Ralph and Nicolas - I fully agree with you both. While I can somehow understand American fixations on political correctness, I find it highly inappropriate when Americans want to impose their own fixations on the whole world. An assumption that everybody has to view the political/social issues exactly like Americans (only some group of Americans, in fact), and find the same things important that are important to Americans (again, only some Americans) is just offending to non-Americans. Some Americans may be hyper-sensitive to the word "black", but rest of the world generally has absolutely no issues with that word. Do you realize this? -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome Pliny probably had slaves. Ron On 2020-06-07 2:32 p.m., micah anderson wrote: Laura Smith writes: Before jumping on the hobbyhorse of self-righthousness about refusing to use “whitelist”/“blacklist”, perhaps you would do well to spend a few minutes on your favourite search engine researching the entymology of such terms. The origin of blacklist, for example, has nothing to do with the race of human beings... Oxford Dictionary suggested origin: The true peace-maker: laid forth in a sermon before his Majesty at Theobalds written by the Bishop of Norwich, Joseph Hall, in 1624: "Ye secret oppressors,..ye kind drunkards, and who euer come within this blacke list of wickednesse." The fact that the OED (a tome of great while male patriarchal enshrinement) doesn't say that the etymology of "blacklist" comes from a racial prejudiced origin, doesn't mean anything. It simply is quoting the oldest known reference to the word, and applying no broader analysis. Why does this quote use 'blacke list of wickedness'? I think scholarly analysis of much more significant rigor would be necessary to understand if you can truly come to the conclusion that it has "nothing" to do with race of human beings. Did race and racism exist in the middle ages? Racism is not a modern phenomena. In fact you can find racial thinking in medieval art, statues, maps, laws, beliefs, economic practices, war, literature, etc. There are also additional origins originating from the 1500's, with the term "blackball". Whereby a ball of black colour was placed in a container as a means of recording a negative vote. Why is black considered negative in 1500s? Very interesting question, worthy of pursuit, but the mere existence doesn't mean it has nothing to do with race. Does that mean it does? Not necessarily. A similar mechanism was used in gentleman's clubs well into the 20th century, whereby a list of prospective club members was affixed to a wall and negative votes were recorded through small circles drawn in black ink against a person's name. Three black circles and you would not make it in. Presumably said gentleman's club would have been white, and it was just a sheer coincidence that an exclusive, all white club, used black to indicate that you were not allowed in. Never heard that color used for that purpose before... the color black has been always associated with the negative, and weirdly black people have also been purposely portrayed in many places, with negative stereotypes that reinforced white supremacy. What a crazy, multi-epoch coincidence! That is so weird. /s In the end, maybe you are right, maybe blacklist has no etymological racial issue... but that isn't the point here, is it? The point here is that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more interested in participating. Who cares if Pliny the Elder used it once, and he totally didn't mean it in a racist way, he probably had loads of black friends! -- Ron Wheeler Artifact Software 438-345-3369 rwhee...@artifact-software.com
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
I am not sure how going to Caucasian-listed vs African-American-listed is going to help inclusion in the data processing field. If you or someone you know is "racialialized" and the biggest problem is how IT describes entities, Eliminating the word "Black" is not going to address any of the issues concerning the people who are protesting and the rest of us. Black "folks" feel excluded because white "folk" treat them differently in hiring, promoting and weighing their opinions for no good reason! And yes there was discrimination in 1500 and before that. Black people had been part of civilization from pre-history. Current scientific belief is that all of our ancestors were black. Slavery goes back before recorded history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery To fear and disrespect people who are "not like us" has a long history. Ron On 2020-06-07 2:46 p.m., Laura Smith wrote: The point here is that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more interested in participating. Give me a break. Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist in computing making black folks feel excluded ? For heavens sake ! Talk about clutching at straws in your argument. Seriously where, exactly, is the exclusion in being able to download, install and configure the software ? Ultimately your practical experience using that software as a black person is going to be exactly the same as any other race. The software won't run any differnetly just because you're black. -- Ron Wheeler Artifact Software 438-345-3369 rwhee...@artifact-software.com
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On So, Jun 07, 2020 at 14:32:37 -0400, micah anderson wrote: the color black has been always associated with the negative, and As long as the night is dark and black these words are considered negative. A dark room or a black room are always more negative than a light room. Many dangers in thrillers or horror movies happen in darkness and black environments. Daemons and devils are shown in dark colours as well. Stephan -- |If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot it.|
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Hello. With a prospective of non-native English speaker, I believe that, political correctness aside, a name which does not involve a cultural reference for the related function to be understood is a welcome change since it reduces, if marginally, for users the possibility of misunderstanding the proper usage. As for the further implications of the colours black and white, I guess it would be difficult to find a definitive answer as to why any culture might choose to associate them with a positive or negative connotation. Human reactions to light and darkness come to mind as a possibility, but who can tell for sure. I also agree that this kind of debate has little in the way of thresholds for when to begin and when to stop. Software may be written by someone belonging to a specific culture but its users quite often might not be. If a choice of wording in a configuration parameter awakens painful memories or touches upon a taboo subject in a small remote village of 50 people, is that inherently less significant than if it were to impact on hundred thousand or a million people? And what about 1 single person? Do we choose a specific culture or a minimum number of people as a threshold? Does any member of a hypothetical target group share the same view or opinion on the matter? It's a bit too big for my head, but I welcome a more descriptive change in the naming on "technical" (or semantical?) grounds. Cheers, Fulvio Scapin Il giorno sab 6 giu 2020 alle ore 20:27 Phil Stracchino ha scritto: > > On 2020-06-06 13:27, yuv wrote: > > On Sat, 2020-06-06 at 19:12 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > >> Black color is culturally associated with the devil (and also death), > >> and white with an angel (innocence, etc.) > > > > in your culture. have you tried checking other cultures? > > Exactly. In Japanese culture, blue is associated with purity and > innocence, and white with death and funerals, as I recall. > > > >> Let's not get crazy. > > > That is the golden watchword here. The trouble with trying to > politically cleanse language is, where do you stop? > > It is instructive here to consider the case of, for instance, > chairman/chairperson. We were all exhorted to abandon words like > chairman, mailman, on the grounds that they are male-centric and > indicative of the patriarchy. > > Unfortunately, when you study the historical etymology of the words, > that is not the case. Long ago, the language that became English used > to have three words for a person: one meaning an explicitly male > person, one meaning an explicitly female person, and one meaning a > person of unspecified gender. > > "Man", if we're going to talk historical etymology, is the word for *a > person of unspecified gender*. The word for a specifically male person > does not exist in the English language any more. It was lost a thousand > years ago. > > > Sure, yes, let's do our best not to use clearly racially or culturally > divisive or offensive terms. But to abandon perfectly neutral terms > because a discriminatory connotation *can be retconned onto them* is to > throw the baby out with the bathwater. Where does it end? > > > There *is no basic human right not to be offended*. Seriously. There > isn't. And you CANNOT eliminate all usages from speech that might > offend someone, because there are people who appear to evaluate their > self-worth in terms of how many things they are offended by today, and > they are endlessly inventive in confecting offense in language that > developed with no discriminatory intent whatever, because the more > offended they are, *obviously* the better a person they are. And to > make matters worse, some of these people will complain about words whose > meaning they don't understand because it sounds similar to a bad word > and they don't know the difference. Tried using the word 'niggardly' > lately? People hear the word and *just assume that it must be racially > offensive*. > > The rule that you cannot say anything that might possibly offend > someone, somewhere ends only one place: Nobody is allowed to say > anything, because *anything* you say *might* offend *someone*. > > Are we going to tell the Black Watch they need to find a new name? > Devise a new term for the color of paper? Prohibit selling cars painted > the color that is neutral in hue but darker than grey? > > That way lies madness. Sometimes a cigar is just a freakin' cigar. > > > > For the political debate... it's the twitterization of language. White > > is RGB(255,255,255) and Black is RGB(0,0,0). > > > "The twitterization of language." I like that phrase, and am hereby > adopting it. :) > > > -- > Phil Stracchino > Babylon Communications > ph...@caerllewys.net > p...@co.ordinate.org > Landline: +1.603.293.8485 > Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Laura Smith: > Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist in computing making black folks > feel excluded ? As maintainer of Postfix, I think that words do matter, just like the use of he/she/they matters. Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English readers. And now I hope that we take this off list. Wietse
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:27:21 -0400 "vi...@vheuser.com" wrote: > Enough already. +1 d -- Affectionate tactile stimulation is a primary need, a need which must be satisfied if the infant is to develop as a healthy human being. And what is a healthy human being? One who is able to love, to work, to play, and to think critically and unprejudicially. -- Ashley Montagu – Touching, The human significance of the skin. 2e 1978
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020/06/07 14:13 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: On Jun 7, 2020, at 2:03 PM, vi...@vheuser.com wrote: Why not take it off this list and contact the developers? Users can't make small changes. Enough already. The intersection of “this is meaningless politics, stop being such a carelord” and “shield my eyes from further discussion of this nonsense” is fascinating. Not sure what all that means, but I am sure that my blacks friends are competent to speak for themselves without self-righteous white carelords condescending to save them.
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Le 07/06/2020 à 20:25, Ralph Seichter a écrit : > Sources, please. A colleague of Kenyan heritage told me that he is, in his > own words, "sometimes amused but mostly annoyed by the American political > correctness movement". To my European eyes (living in France, born in Austria, Hungarian family) the American political correctness movement comes close to what the French call "la politesse". Some nasty form of passive-aggressive mud-wrestling. Cheers from the sunny South of France, Niki Kovacs -- Microlinux - Solutions informatiques durables 7, place de l'église - 30730 Montpezat Site : https://www.microlinux.fr Mail : i...@microlinux.fr Tél. : 04 66 63 10 32 Mob. : 06 51 80 12 12
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
The practice of systematic erasure of language regresses to human ideas. Language policing has inertia and a kind of gravity that starts removing tangential-but-uncontroversial ideas as a byproduct; dangerous and anti-human! Appropriate usage of the term "Black" is not racist. Not hiring someone or usurping opportunity because of skin color is racist. Maintaining a lexicon of allowed language based on skin color (only white people can use the term white and so on) is exceptionally racist. Quantify the value of "race sensitive variable definition heuristics" to the functioning of the software, or move-on and fix a real bug or add a needed feature. That is all. On 6/7/20 12:13 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: On Jun 7, 2020, at 2:03 PM, vi...@vheuser.com wrote: Why not take it off this list and contact the developers? Users can't make small changes. Enough already. The intersection of “this is meaningless politics, stop being such a carelord” and “shield my eyes from further discussion of this nonsense” is fascinating. On 2020/06/07 12:59 PM, Pau Amma wrote: On 2020-06-07 18:44, Norton Allen wrote: [undeserved snippage] Someone has suggested that we make a small change, a change that Black people have said would make them feel better, and all we can do is argue that making that change would be too difficult, unnecessary, ineffective or etymologically inaccurate. Is that how you respond when a neighbor asks a favor? Heck, is that how you respond when faced with a technical challenge? Or do you stop for a minute to think about the problem, how it might be manifested in different situations or for different people, and start to try to figure out what you can do to help? *standing ovation* Thank you for posting this.
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
> The point here is > that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could > be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more > interested in participating. Give me a break. Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist in computing making black folks feel excluded ? For heavens sake ! Talk about clutching at straws in your argument. Seriously where, exactly, is the exclusion in being able to download, install and configure the software ? Ultimately your practical experience using that software as a black person is going to be exactly the same as any other race. The software won't run any differnetly just because you're black.
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Scott Kitterman: > On Sunday, June 7, 2020 2:03:18 PM EDT vi...@vheuser.com wrote: > > Why not take it off this list and contact the developers? > > Users can't make small changes. > > Enough already. > > This list is the appropriate place for users to contact Postfix > developers. You may not have noticed but the creator of Postfix > and it's primary developer has been active in this thread. The request is noted, and work is in progress. Further on-list dicsussion is not needed. Wietse
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Laura Smith writes: > Before jumping on the hobbyhorse of self-righthousness about refusing > to use “whitelist”/“blacklist”, perhaps you would do well to spend a > few minutes on your favourite search engine researching the entymology > of such terms. > > The origin of blacklist, for example, has nothing to do with the race > of human beings... > > Oxford Dictionary suggested origin: > The true peace-maker: laid forth in a sermon before his Majesty at Theobalds > written by the Bishop of Norwich, Joseph Hall, in 1624: > "Ye secret oppressors,..ye kind drunkards, and who euer come within this > blacke list of wickednesse." The fact that the OED (a tome of great while male patriarchal enshrinement) doesn't say that the etymology of "blacklist" comes from a racial prejudiced origin, doesn't mean anything. It simply is quoting the oldest known reference to the word, and applying no broader analysis. Why does this quote use 'blacke list of wickedness'? I think scholarly analysis of much more significant rigor would be necessary to understand if you can truly come to the conclusion that it has "nothing" to do with race of human beings. Did race and racism exist in the middle ages? Racism is not a modern phenomena. In fact you can find racial thinking in medieval art, statues, maps, laws, beliefs, economic practices, war, literature, etc. > There are also additional origins originating from the 1500's, with > the term "blackball". Whereby a ball of black colour was placed in a > container as a means of recording a negative vote. Why is black considered negative in 1500s? Very interesting question, worthy of pursuit, but the mere existence doesn't mean it has nothing to do with race. Does that mean it does? Not necessarily. >A similar mechanism was used in gentleman's clubs well into the 20th >century, whereby a list of prospective club members was affixed to a >wall and negative votes were recorded through small circles drawn in >black ink against a person's name. Three black circles and you would >not make it in. Presumably said gentleman's club would have been white, and it was just a sheer coincidence that an exclusive, all white club, used black to indicate that you were not allowed in. Never heard that color used for that purpose before... the color black has been always associated with the negative, and weirdly black people have also been purposely portrayed in many places, with negative stereotypes that reinforced white supremacy. What a crazy, multi-epoch coincidence! That is so weird. /s In the end, maybe you are right, maybe blacklist has no etymological racial issue... but that isn't the point here, is it? The point here is that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more interested in participating. Who cares if Pliny the Elder used it once, and he totally didn't mean it in a racist way, he probably had loads of black friends! -- micah
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
* Norton Allen: > Someone has suggested that we make a small change I did not see a suggestion, just a question about how easy it would be to make changes. > a change that Black people have said would make them feel better Sources, please. A colleague of Kenyan heritage told me that he is, in his own words, "sometimes amused but mostly annoyed by the American political correctness movement". > and all we can do is argue that making that change would be too > difficult, unnecessary, ineffective or etymologically inaccurate. > Is that how you respond when a neighbor asks a favor? Depends. My new neighbours asked me to cut down a tree because they don't like it. Not because it grows over their fence or something, but as a favour. I told them no. > Perhaps if this change is too much to ask, we should put some effort > into thinking about what we *can* do to make this corner of the world > more welcoming to Blacks. I have to say, I think the message of this > thread so far has been quite the opposite. Then let me make "the message" clear, as far as mine (!) goes: I am not American, and American sensibilites mean very little to me, especially since November 8, 2016. American problems are not mine; my home country has its own share of problems and morons, and I decide how to deal with them. If that offends the reader: tough. I don't give a fart about a subscriber's gender, sexual orientation, creed or race on this here Postfix mailing list. I evaluate only the content of their individual posts. I consciously try to treat people with respect, albeit not always successfully. If you are offended, you can let me know. Maybe I will consider your point, but maybe I won't. In the case of "blacklist" et al, I would not change a word in existing documentation or source code, because I believe it would serve no tangible purpose in fighting racism. My opinion does not matter though, only Wietse's counts. -Ralph
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 2:03:18 PM EDT vi...@vheuser.com wrote: > Why not take it off this list and contact the developers? > Users can't make small changes. > Enough already. This list is the appropriate place for users to contact Postfix developers. You may not have noticed but the creator of Postfix and it's primary developer has been active in this thread. Scott K
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
> On Jun 7, 2020, at 2:03 PM, vi...@vheuser.com wrote: > > Why not take it off this list and contact the developers? > Users can't make small changes. > Enough already. The intersection of “this is meaningless politics, stop being such a carelord” and “shield my eyes from further discussion of this nonsense” is fascinating. > > > > > On 2020/06/07 12:59 PM, Pau Amma wrote: >> On 2020-06-07 18:44, Norton Allen wrote: >>> >>> [undeserved snippage] >>> >>> Someone has suggested that we make a small change, a change that Black >>> people have said would make them feel better, and all we can do is >>> argue that making that change would be too difficult, unnecessary, >>> ineffective or etymologically inaccurate. Is that how you respond when >>> a neighbor asks a favor? Heck, is that how you respond when faced with >>> a technical challenge? Or do you stop for a minute to think about the >>> problem, how it might be manifested in different situations or for >>> different people, and start to try to figure out what you can do to >>> help? >> >> *standing ovation* Thank you for posting this. >> >
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Noel Jones:
> With postfix, this is mostly a documentation issue, other than a few
> postscreen parameter names.
>
> I'm not opposed to changing postfix documentation and parameter
> names to refer to {allow,permit} and {deny,reject} using whichever
> verb fits best. This might even make documentation easier to
> understand for non-English speakers.
>
> I'm willing to help.
I appreciate the offer. For further work, we can take this offlist.
Wietse
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Why not take it off this list and contact the developers? Users can't make small changes. Enough already. On 2020/06/07 12:59 PM, Pau Amma wrote: On 2020-06-07 18:44, Norton Allen wrote: [undeserved snippage] Someone has suggested that we make a small change, a change that Black people have said would make them feel better, and all we can do is argue that making that change would be too difficult, unnecessary, ineffective or etymologically inaccurate. Is that how you respond when a neighbor asks a favor? Heck, is that how you respond when faced with a technical challenge? Or do you stop for a minute to think about the problem, how it might be manifested in different situations or for different people, and start to try to figure out what you can do to help? *standing ovation* Thank you for posting this.
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
With postfix, this is mostly a documentation issue, other than a few
postscreen parameter names.
I'm not opposed to changing postfix documentation and parameter
names to refer to {allow,permit} and {deny,reject} using whichever
verb fits best. This might even make documentation easier to
understand for non-English speakers.
I'm willing to help.
-- Noel Jones
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-07 18:44, Norton Allen wrote: [undeserved snippage] Someone has suggested that we make a small change, a change that Black people have said would make them feel better, and all we can do is argue that making that change would be too difficult, unnecessary, ineffective or etymologically inaccurate. Is that how you respond when a neighbor asks a favor? Heck, is that how you respond when faced with a technical challenge? Or do you stop for a minute to think about the problem, how it might be manifested in different situations or for different people, and start to try to figure out what you can do to help? *standing ovation* Thank you for posting this.
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Yes, the request is political. Politics is about how we live and work together, how we treat each other. Software, particularly open source software, is not just inanimate objects. It is developed and nurtured within a community of real people who live in our very real society. I am going to make a guess that this list is made up predominantly of older white males, myself included. That guess is based on the historic under representation of women and minorities in tech in general and the type of software we are dealing with. This change would have essentially no effect on us as a group because we have always lived on the favored side of white/black language. We assume the usage is benign because if anything we are flattered by it. Do you have empathy? Can you put yourselves in someone else's shoes to see how this might affect them? Someone has suggested that we make a small change, a change that Black people have said would make them feel better, and all we can do is argue that making that change would be too difficult, unnecessary, ineffective or etymologically inaccurate. Is that how you respond when a neighbor asks a favor? Heck, is that how you respond when faced with a technical challenge? Or do you stop for a minute to think about the problem, how it might be manifested in different situations or for different people, and start to try to figure out what you can do to help? Perhaps if this change is too much to ask, we should put some effort into thinking about what we *can* do to make this corner of the world more welcoming to Blacks. I have to say, I think the message of this thread so far has been quite the opposite.
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
I do not wish to become involved in this whole debate, in particular as I think it is somewhat idiotic to seek to bring the whole Politically Correct debate to inanimate objects such as computers or software programs. However, I would like to say just one thing. Before jumping on the hobbyhorse of self-righthousness about refusing to use “whitelist”/“blacklist”, perhaps you would do well to spend a few minutes on your favourite search engine researching the entymology of such terms. The origin of blacklist, for example, has nothing to do with the race of human beings... Oxford Dictionary suggested origin: The true peace-maker: laid forth in a sermon before his Majesty at Theobalds written by the Bishop of Norwich, Joseph Hall, in 1624: "Ye secret oppressors,..ye kind drunkards, and who euer come within this blacke list of wickednesse." There are also additional origins originating from the 1500's, with the term "blackball". Whereby a ball of black colour was placed in a container as a means of recording a negative vote. A similar mechanism was used in gentleman's clubs well into the 20th century, whereby a list of prospective club members was affixed to a wall and negative votes were recorded through small circles drawn in black ink against a person's name. Three black circles and you would not make it in. It then only stands to reason that "whitelist" came to being as the obvious antonym to "blacklist". ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Saturday, 6 June 2020 13:55, Ian Evans wrote: > Food for thought from the co-author of OAuth and oEmbed. How easy would it be > for Postfix/Postscreen configs/docs to, say, refer to allow/deny lists? > > Leah Culver (@leahculver) tweeted at 11:32 PM on Fri, Jun 05, 2020: > I refuse to use “whitelist”/“blacklist” or “master”/“slave” terminology for > computers. Join me. Words matter. > (https://twitter.com/leahculver/status/1269109776983547904?s=03)
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 06 Jun 2020, at 14:04, Antonio Leding wrote: > I respectfully submit that context matters far far more and ignoring that in > a quest to find a solution to a widespread social ill and\or soothe a shared > trauma is a very treacherous path. Even the most serious and extreme social > ills do not demand nor justify any and all measures and my hope is that any > deliberative and collective body consider only those measures which have a > bonafide goal of resolving whatever issue is at play. Yes. This. Though I do think that having a casual and constant reinforcement that black == bad helps people justify their racist beliefs. Not cause them, but certainly justify them. During the Obama Presidency I heard a LOT of racists talking about how the home of the President was called the WHITE House, not the BLACK House, as an example. And changing blacklist to blocklist (or blackhole to sinkhole) isn't causing any problems or adding confusion or requiring major alterations to the code "just beach". In fact, in this case changing blacklist to blacklist is actually an improvement in meaning and makes the purpose of the list more obvious. Blackhole, however, isn't going to go away anytime soon as a black hole is an actual thing that is unlikely to be renamed since its name is descriptive of what it is. I would support changing the name of greylist (out of the realm of this list) to "waitlist" or something as well for the sake of clarity. -- "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" "I think so, Brainius. But what if a sudden wind were to blow up my toga?"
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Sat, Jun 06, 2020 at 01:46:14PM -0400, Wietse Venema wrote: > Wietse Venema: > > Ian Evans: > > > Food for thought from the co-author of OAuth and oEmbed. How easy would it > > > be for Postfix/Postscreen configs/docs to, say, refer to allow/deny lists? > > > > Easily, if they can be acessed via DNSBL/DNSWL qeueries. Any 'new' > > lookup mechanism will have to be added through a postscreen policy > > plugin, and that involves new Postfix code. > > > > For context: Postscreen decides if a remote SMTP client is allowed > > to talk to a Postfix SMTP service. The decision is made on (protocol) > > behavior and reputation, plus a static allow/deny list that is > > typically populated with information from major provider SPF records. > > I did not realize this was a suggestion to re-word Postfix documentation > (and presumably, the corresponding program and parameter names). > > Changing 'blacklist' into 'blocklist' or 'blackhole' into 'sinkhole' There is nothing wrong with the use of the word blacklist and blackhole, or the word black. > seems doable. There is no 'slave' in documentation, program names > or parameter names. Internal identifiers and comments can be udpated > with no visible consequence. Other changes would be difficult. > > Wietse -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 19:12:08 +0200 Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > long > before any racial conflict was taking place. when was that? d -- Affectionate tactile stimulation is a primary need, a need which must be satisfied if the infant is to develop as a healthy human being. And what is a healthy human being? One who is able to love, to work, to play, and to think critically and unprejudicially. -- Ashley Montagu – Touching, The human significance of the skin. 2e 1978
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
This has become irrelevant to postfix-users, and any technical discussion.
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
El sáb, 06-06-2020 a las 13:43 -0500, Larry Stone escribió: > Code changes introduce risk (as I no doubt don’t need to tell Wietse). > I’m reminded from my days many, many years ago using VAX/VMS systems. In > looking at the files that made up that operating system, I noticed a file > name that seemed out of place (STARLET, IIRC) and didn’t fit the rest of > the apparent naming scheme. I would eventually find out it was the pre- > release “working name” of what would become VMS but by the time DEC > settled on the VMS name, the old name was too embedded in the code to > risk trying to change all the code. I’ve been away from VMS for 25 years > or so but it wouldn’t surprise me if that old name still lives on in the > current version. Just to bring you back in time :-) From a live four node Itanium cluster just now ;-) CUMA2I$ show system OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on node CUMA2I7-JUN-2020 00:35:10.29 Uptime 11 12:35:30 CUMA2I$ dir sys$sysroot:[00...]starlet* Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[00.SYSCOMMON.SYSLIB] STARLET.INCLUDE;1 STARLET.MLB;1 STARLET.OLB;1 STARLET.R64;1 STARLET.REQ;1 STARLETPAS.TLB;1STARLETSD.TLB;1 STARLET_RECENT_ ADA_SUBSET.TLB;1 Total of 8 files. Directory SYS$COMMON:[00.SYSLIB] STARLET.INCLUDE;1 STARLET.MLB;1 STARLET.OLB;1 STARLET.R64;1 STARLET.REQ;1 STARLETPAS.TLB;1STARLETSD.TLB;1 STARLET_RECENT_ ADA_SUBSET.TLB;1 Total of 8 files. Grand total of 2 directories, 16 files. -- Victoriano Giralt Innovation Director Digital Transformation Vicerectorate University of Malaga +34952131415 SPAIN == Note: signature.asc is the electronic signature of present message A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure ? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting annoying in email ? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Dnia 6.06.2020 o godz. 13:27:43 yuv pisze: > On Sat, 2020-06-06 at 19:12 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > > Black color is culturally associated with the devil (and also death), > > and white with an angel (innocence, etc.) > > in your culture. have you tried checking other cultures? Well, I guess most of us here belong to the same culture. The one which originated in ancient Greece, and then through incorporation of Roman culture and christianity spread across the Europe and got exported to America. :) That is where our roots (that is, most of us here on this list) are. That is where the cultural associations of colors like black and white come from. I'm pretty sure that by "other cultures" you do not mean culture of native Americans, Australian Aborigines, nor even Chinese or Japanese culture ;). I'm also pretty sure those cultures are *not* the reason why someone wants to change various names to avoid words like "black" and "white". The one and only thing is that reason: political situation in the USA. Pretty bold to think that one country's circumstances should decide for the whole world, or even for the whole Greco-Roman part of the world, eh? That's a real attempt at cultural domination :) -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-06 16:04, Antonio Leding wrote: > I respectfully submit that context matters far far more and ignoring that in > a quest to find a solution to a widespread social ill and\or soothe a shared > trauma is a very treacherous path. Even the most serious and extreme social > ills do not demand nor justify any and all measures and my hope is that any > deliberative and collective body consider only those measures which have a > bonafide goal of resolving whatever issue is at play. Well said, Antonio. -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Communications ph...@caerllewys.net p...@co.ordinate.org Landline: +1.603.293.8485 Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
It goes without saying that this kind of a discussion\debate\etc. can easily turn into something wholly not intended…therefore, all I will offer is this… Someone said earlier that they refuse to use select words because "words matter"…I would agree. That said… I respectfully submit that context matters far far more and ignoring that in a quest to find a solution to a widespread social ill and\or soothe a shared trauma is a very treacherous path. Even the most serious and extreme social ills do not demand nor justify any and all measures and my hope is that any deliberative and collective body consider only those measures which have a bonafide goal of resolving whatever issue is at play. > On Jun 6, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Wietse Venema wrote: > > Wietse Venema: >> Ian Evans: >>> Food for thought from the co-author of OAuth and oEmbed. How easy would it >>> be for Postfix/Postscreen configs/docs to, say, refer to allow/deny lists? >> >> Easily, if they can be acessed via DNSBL/DNSWL qeueries. Any 'new' >> lookup mechanism will have to be added through a postscreen policy >> plugin, and that involves new Postfix code. >> >> For context: Postscreen decides if a remote SMTP client is allowed >> to talk to a Postfix SMTP service. The decision is made on (protocol) >> behavior and reputation, plus a static allow/deny list that is >> typically populated with information from major provider SPF records. > > I did not realize this was a suggestion to re-word Postfix documentation > (and presumably, the corresponding program and parameter names). > > Changing 'blacklist' into 'blocklist' or 'blackhole' into 'sinkhole' > seems doable. There is no 'slave' in documentation, program names > or parameter names. Internal identifiers and comments can be udpated > with no visible consequence. Other changes would be difficult. > > Wietse
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 3:09 PM Ralph Seichter, wrote: > * Ian Evans: > > > Leah Culver (@leahculver) tweeted at 11:32 PM on Fri, Jun 05, 2020: > > I refuse to use “whitelist”/“blacklist” or “master”/“slave” terminology > > for computers. Join me. Words matter. > > (https://twitter.com/leahculver/status/1269109776983547904?s=03) > > Does Leah Culver also refuse to use the word "index"? It has been used > at least since the Roman Empire, and in today's German, index can still > be synonymous to blacklist/blocklist depending on context. > > To me, "black" and "white", just like their German equivalents "schwarz" > and "weiß", do not have any relations to race unless the surrounding > context establishes that type of relation. > > Out of curiosity, I had a look at Wikipedia.de's disambiguation page for > "Schwarz", and the very first entry is as I had expected: > > Schwarz, Farbe, bzw. die Empfindung der "Abwesenheit von Farben" > > The literal translation into English is as follows: > > Black, colour, respectively the perception of "absence of colours" > > This is followed by more than 20 entries, none of which has racial > connotations. There is however a reference to another disambiguation > page way down in the "see also" section, and following the link to > "Schwarze" (lit. "blacks") there is a mention of it meaning, among other > things, either "people with dark skin colour" or "members of a > christian-conservative party" -- once again, depending on context. > > Corollary: Please don't mistake American sensibilities for something the > whole world cares about, let alone needs to conform with. Racism is a > blight on humanity, but there are more important issues to consider than > the use of colours. > > All that said, if Wietse voluntarily chooses to change certain terms, > that is completely fine by me. > > -Ralph > It's an interesting discussion and at least it's a discussion and not a war. I just saw the thread today and thought it was, as I said, food for thought. People and programmers can look at the menu and choose or just ask for a coffee and the cheque. >
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-06 15:07, Ralph Seichter wrote: > Corollary: Please don't mistake American sensibilities for something the > whole world cares about, let alone needs to conform with. Racism is a > blight on humanity, but there are more important issues to consider than > the use of colours. And to add an additional comment that this corollary helped "gel" into words: You cannot change *the way people think* by changing what words they are allowed to use. This is doubly true when the words you are trying to ban have only a coincidental connection to the hateful thoughts. What we need to do is change how people *think*. Imposing politically-correct language choices just makes the haters angrier and doesn't solve the actual problem. -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Communications ph...@caerllewys.net p...@co.ordinate.org Landline: +1.603.293.8485 Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
* Ian Evans: > Leah Culver (@leahculver) tweeted at 11:32 PM on Fri, Jun 05, 2020: > I refuse to use “whitelist”/“blacklist” or “master”/“slave” terminology > for computers. Join me. Words matter. > (https://twitter.com/leahculver/status/1269109776983547904?s=03) Does Leah Culver also refuse to use the word "index"? It has been used at least since the Roman Empire, and in today's German, index can still be synonymous to blacklist/blocklist depending on context. To me, "black" and "white", just like their German equivalents "schwarz" and "weiß", do not have any relations to race unless the surrounding context establishes that type of relation. Out of curiosity, I had a look at Wikipedia.de's disambiguation page for "Schwarz", and the very first entry is as I had expected: Schwarz, Farbe, bzw. die Empfindung der "Abwesenheit von Farben" The literal translation into English is as follows: Black, colour, respectively the perception of "absence of colours" This is followed by more than 20 entries, none of which has racial connotations. There is however a reference to another disambiguation page way down in the "see also" section, and following the link to "Schwarze" (lit. "blacks") there is a mention of it meaning, among other things, either "people with dark skin colour" or "members of a christian-conservative party" -- once again, depending on context. Corollary: Please don't mistake American sensibilities for something the whole world cares about, let alone needs to conform with. Racism is a blight on humanity, but there are more important issues to consider than the use of colours. All that said, if Wietse voluntarily chooses to change certain terms, that is completely fine by me. -Ralph
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
> On Jun 6, 2020, at 12:47, Wietse Venema wrote: > > Changing 'blacklist' into 'blocklist' or 'blackhole' into 'sinkhole' > seems doable. There is no 'slave' in documentation, program names > or parameter names. Internal identifiers and comments can be updated > with no visible consequence. Other changes would be difficult. Code changes introduce risk (as I no doubt don’t need to tell Wietse). I’m reminded from my days many, many years ago using VAX/VMS systems. In looking at the files that made up that operating system, I noticed a file name that seemed out of place (STARLET, IIRC) and didn’t fit the rest of the apparent naming scheme. I would eventually find out it was the pre-release “working name” of what would become VMS but by the time DEC settled on the VMS name, the old name was too embedded in the code to risk trying to change all the code. I’ve been away from VMS for 25 years or so but it wouldn’t surprise me if that old name still lives on in the current version. — Larry Stone lston...@stonejongleux.com
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On 2020-06-06 13:27, yuv wrote: > On Sat, 2020-06-06 at 19:12 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: >> Black color is culturally associated with the devil (and also death), >> and white with an angel (innocence, etc.) > > in your culture. have you tried checking other cultures? Exactly. In Japanese culture, blue is associated with purity and innocence, and white with death and funerals, as I recall. >> Let's not get crazy. That is the golden watchword here. The trouble with trying to politically cleanse language is, where do you stop? It is instructive here to consider the case of, for instance, chairman/chairperson. We were all exhorted to abandon words like chairman, mailman, on the grounds that they are male-centric and indicative of the patriarchy. Unfortunately, when you study the historical etymology of the words, that is not the case. Long ago, the language that became English used to have three words for a person: one meaning an explicitly male person, one meaning an explicitly female person, and one meaning a person of unspecified gender. "Man", if we're going to talk historical etymology, is the word for *a person of unspecified gender*. The word for a specifically male person does not exist in the English language any more. It was lost a thousand years ago. Sure, yes, let's do our best not to use clearly racially or culturally divisive or offensive terms. But to abandon perfectly neutral terms because a discriminatory connotation *can be retconned onto them* is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Where does it end? There *is no basic human right not to be offended*. Seriously. There isn't. And you CANNOT eliminate all usages from speech that might offend someone, because there are people who appear to evaluate their self-worth in terms of how many things they are offended by today, and they are endlessly inventive in confecting offense in language that developed with no discriminatory intent whatever, because the more offended they are, *obviously* the better a person they are. And to make matters worse, some of these people will complain about words whose meaning they don't understand because it sounds similar to a bad word and they don't know the difference. Tried using the word 'niggardly' lately? People hear the word and *just assume that it must be racially offensive*. The rule that you cannot say anything that might possibly offend someone, somewhere ends only one place: Nobody is allowed to say anything, because *anything* you say *might* offend *someone*. Are we going to tell the Black Watch they need to find a new name? Devise a new term for the color of paper? Prohibit selling cars painted the color that is neutral in hue but darker than grey? That way lies madness. Sometimes a cigar is just a freakin' cigar. > For the political debate... it's the twitterization of language. White > is RGB(255,255,255) and Black is RGB(0,0,0). "The twitterization of language." I like that phrase, and am hereby adopting it. :) -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Communications ph...@caerllewys.net p...@co.ordinate.org Landline: +1.603.293.8485 Mobile: +1.603.998.6958
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Wietse Venema: > Ian Evans: > > Food for thought from the co-author of OAuth and oEmbed. How easy would it > > be for Postfix/Postscreen configs/docs to, say, refer to allow/deny lists? > > Easily, if they can be acessed via DNSBL/DNSWL qeueries. Any 'new' > lookup mechanism will have to be added through a postscreen policy > plugin, and that involves new Postfix code. > > For context: Postscreen decides if a remote SMTP client is allowed > to talk to a Postfix SMTP service. The decision is made on (protocol) > behavior and reputation, plus a static allow/deny list that is > typically populated with information from major provider SPF records. I did not realize this was a suggestion to re-word Postfix documentation (and presumably, the corresponding program and parameter names). Changing 'blacklist' into 'blocklist' or 'blackhole' into 'sinkhole' seems doable. There is no 'slave' in documentation, program names or parameter names. Internal identifiers and comments can be udpated with no visible consequence. Other changes would be difficult. Wietse
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
On Sat, 2020-06-06 at 19:12 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Black color is culturally associated with the devil (and also death), > and white with an angel (innocence, etc.) in your culture. have you tried checking other cultures? > Let's not get crazy. I agree with you. It applies to all sides of the debate. For the technical debate, which is relevant here, colors are/were a coded abstraction that is unnecessary. Using more precise, meaningful terms such as allow/deny reduces ambiguity, improves readability, does not make the text significantly longer and should be uncontroversial (other than the pain of migrating configuration files and the likes, which can be mitigated with appropriate deprecation periods). For the political debate... it's the twitterization of language. White is RGB(255,255,255) and Black is RGB(0,0,0). Or it can be expressed in photon's wavelength. White/Black is not race. Colours were used as an approximation of race, not the other way around. Imposing race as the definition of the words will make language worse, not better. I appreciate and support the intention, but in my view, putting people in boxes (white, black, whatever) only increases racisms, and detracts from the ability of a language to describe facts such as reflected wavelengths. But then, this is the twitterization of language, and soon there will be emojis only because of raising analphabetismus and the lazyness of imperfect definitions. 2c -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer
Re: The historical roots of our computer terms
Dnia 6.06.2020 o godz. 08:55:38 Ian Evans pisze: > Leah Culver (@leahculver) tweeted at 11:32 PM on Fri, Jun 05, 2020: > I refuse to use “whitelist”/“blacklist” or “master”/“slave” terminology for > computers. Join me. Words matter. > (https://twitter.com/leahculver/status/1269109776983547904?s=03) What's next? Changing for example "green" and "red" status in network monitoring systems and alike to something "more neutral"? Because green can be associated with ecology (or peasants' political parties) and red with the communism? White and black in context of whitelists/blacklists are just colors. No associations with race whatsoever. Black color is culturally associated with the devil (and also death), and white with an angel (innocence, etc.) long before any racial conflict was taking place. There is also black and white magic, black hats and white hats in the hacker community etc. We commonly use the term "black sheep" to refer to someone whose behavior brings a bad reputation for the whole group he/she belongs to. This has also nothing to do with race. Let's not get crazy. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
