Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] [PATCH] ALSA: hda/hdmi: Add Intel silent stream support
On 6/25/20 10:30 AM, Jaroslav Kysela wrote: Dne 25. 06. 20 v 16:46 Pierre-Louis Bossart napsal(a): So, rather the question is how we should provide the setup of such parameter. It's supposed to be a part of power management stuff that should be touched by either a smart PM tool or a manual override such as runtime PM setup? Or can it be seen as a more casual tuning? I am not aware of such tools. The only thing I know is that some of the HDaudio power settings are already controlled by kernel parameters, e.g. /etc/modprobe.d/audio_powersave.conf options snd_hda_intel power_save=1 Yes, it's been the primary knob for years to turn on/off the runtime PM for HD-audio and other legacy drivers. This was used by powertop or some other power-aware daemons and tools, to be toggled dynamically per the power cable state or such. And, how the silent stream feature should be seen? Should it be a system-wide root-only setup or adjustable per user? Would it be changed often? Such questions and answers will lead us to the right direction, I hope. For audio, would UCM not be the appropriate point for a system integrator to decide how the audio device should be set up? This would allow for a choice based on the situation in which the device is actually being deployed without users having to muck around with module parameters -- maybe someone wants want this enabled for an HTPC setup, but not on a desktop connected to a monitor. Right, that's my concern. Many users with HDMI monitor that is capable of audio don't use HDMI audio because they don't need it and/or the output sucks. For them, this feature is superfluous and harmful from the runtime PM POV. > If it were provided via UCM, would it be yet another UCM profile like HDMI+silentstream? This can be confusing, too, I'm afraid. Unless I am mistaken, this silent stream would be applicable to the legacy HDaudio driver, as well as SOF. UCM is not used for the legacy HDaudio case, so that would close the door on UCM-based configurations, no? UCM can be used for legacy HDA, too (and it is used for some legacy HDA models - dual codecs). It seems that it's better to describe the "abstract" device layout for users on the one place. Did you mean represent the form-factor in UCM? Currently we use e.g. the same bytcr-rt5640 UCM file for tablets, notebooks and headless devices (mini desktops). UCM would need to get the information from somewhere else, I don't think it'd be practical to hard-code form-factors in UCM proper. My plan is to migrate to UCM completely at some day when the major issues are resolved. It may be a bit challenge for the legacy HDA driver and USB devices but doable. For USB I don't know how this would work. USB report descriptors, if you wanted to represent all possible cases with UCM you'd need to build the union of all possible cases and make parts conditional. ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] [PATCH] ALSA: hda/hdmi: Add Intel silent stream support
Dne 25. 06. 20 v 16:46 Pierre-Louis Bossart napsal(a): So, rather the question is how we should provide the setup of such parameter. It's supposed to be a part of power management stuff that should be touched by either a smart PM tool or a manual override such as runtime PM setup? Or can it be seen as a more casual tuning? I am not aware of such tools. The only thing I know is that some of the HDaudio power settings are already controlled by kernel parameters, e.g. /etc/modprobe.d/audio_powersave.conf options snd_hda_intel power_save=1 Yes, it's been the primary knob for years to turn on/off the runtime PM for HD-audio and other legacy drivers. This was used by powertop or some other power-aware daemons and tools, to be toggled dynamically per the power cable state or such. And, how the silent stream feature should be seen? Should it be a system-wide root-only setup or adjustable per user? Would it be changed often? Such questions and answers will lead us to the right direction, I hope. For audio, would UCM not be the appropriate point for a system integrator to decide how the audio device should be set up? This would allow for a choice based on the situation in which the device is actually being deployed without users having to muck around with module parameters -- maybe someone wants want this enabled for an HTPC setup, but not on a desktop connected to a monitor. Right, that's my concern. Many users with HDMI monitor that is capable of audio don't use HDMI audio because they don't need it and/or the output sucks. For them, this feature is superfluous and harmful from the runtime PM POV. > If it were provided via UCM, would it be yet another UCM profile like HDMI+silentstream? This can be confusing, too, I'm afraid. Unless I am mistaken, this silent stream would be applicable to the legacy HDaudio driver, as well as SOF. UCM is not used for the legacy HDaudio case, so that would close the door on UCM-based configurations, no? UCM can be used for legacy HDA, too (and it is used for some legacy HDA models - dual codecs). It seems that it's better to describe the "abstract" device layout for users on the one place. My plan is to migrate to UCM completely at some day when the major issues are resolved. It may be a bit challenge for the legacy HDA driver and USB devices but doable. Jaroslav -- Jaroslav Kysela Linux Sound Maintainer; ALSA Project; Red Hat, Inc. ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] [PATCH] ALSA: hda/hdmi: Add Intel silent stream support
So, rather the question is how we should provide the setup of such parameter. It's supposed to be a part of power management stuff that should be touched by either a smart PM tool or a manual override such as runtime PM setup? Or can it be seen as a more casual tuning? I am not aware of such tools. The only thing I know is that some of the HDaudio power settings are already controlled by kernel parameters, e.g. /etc/modprobe.d/audio_powersave.conf options snd_hda_intel power_save=1 Yes, it's been the primary knob for years to turn on/off the runtime PM for HD-audio and other legacy drivers. This was used by powertop or some other power-aware daemons and tools, to be toggled dynamically per the power cable state or such. And, how the silent stream feature should be seen? Should it be a system-wide root-only setup or adjustable per user? Would it be changed often? Such questions and answers will lead us to the right direction, I hope. For audio, would UCM not be the appropriate point for a system integrator to decide how the audio device should be set up? This would allow for a choice based on the situation in which the device is actually being deployed without users having to muck around with module parameters -- maybe someone wants want this enabled for an HTPC setup, but not on a desktop connected to a monitor. Right, that's my concern. Many users with HDMI monitor that is capable of audio don't use HDMI audio because they don't need it and/or the output sucks. For them, this feature is superfluous and harmful from the runtime PM POV. > If it were provided via UCM, would it be yet another UCM profile like HDMI+silentstream? This can be confusing, too, I'm afraid. Unless I am mistaken, this silent stream would be applicable to the legacy HDaudio driver, as well as SOF. UCM is not used for the legacy HDaudio case, so that would close the door on UCM-based configurations, no? From the interface POV, as Kai suggested in another mail, the analogy to power_save option makes sense. OTOH, power_save is the knob that is better to be enabled (as long as it works), silent stream is the feature that is needed only when required. So it comes to the question which interface is easier to manage. ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] [PATCH] ALSA: hda/hdmi: Add Intel silent stream support
On Thu, 2020-06-25 at 09:03 +0200, Takashi Iwai wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 02:18:58 +0200, > Arun Raghavan wrote: > > +pulseaudio-discuss for information > > > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2020, at 1:33 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote: > > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:05:14 +0200, > > > Pierre-Louis Bossart wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/20 11:43 AM, Takashi Iwai wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 17:33:45 +0200, > > > > > Pierre-Louis Bossart wrote: > > > > > > It also doesn't have a UCM representation > > > > > > so would force the use of amixer and manual configs, or the UCM file > > > > > > would always set the mode. > > > > > > > > > > But people usually use the distro kernels, so the situation is more or > > > > > less equivalent; you'd have to adjust a module option manually if you > > > > > want a different one from the default, and you'd have to be root to > > > > > change it. > > > > > > > > > > So, rather the question is how we should provide the setup of such > > > > > parameter. It's supposed to be a part of power management stuff that > > > > > should be touched by either a smart PM tool or a manual override such > > > > > as runtime PM setup? Or can it be seen as a more casual tuning? > > > > > > > > I am not aware of such tools. The only thing I know is that some of > > > > the HDaudio power settings are already controlled by kernel > > > > parameters, e.g. > > > > > > > > /etc/modprobe.d/audio_powersave.conf > > > > options snd_hda_intel power_save=1 > > > > > > Yes, it's been the primary knob for years to turn on/off the runtime > > > PM for HD-audio and other legacy drivers. This was used by powertop > > > or some other power-aware daemons and tools, to be toggled dynamically > > > per the power cable state or such. > > > > > > And, how the silent stream feature should be seen? > > > Should it be a system-wide root-only setup or adjustable per user? > > > Would it be changed often? Such questions and answers will lead us to > > > the right direction, I hope. > > > > For audio, would UCM not be the appropriate point for a system > > integrator to decide how the audio device should be set up? > > > > This would allow for a choice based on the situation in which the > > device is actually being deployed without users having to muck > > around with module parameters -- maybe someone wants want this > > enabled for an HTPC setup, but not on a desktop connected to a > > monitor. Is UCM really an appropriate place for deciding the setting? The default should be to disable the feature, and if that is done in UCM, how is the user expected to enable it when needed? I'm not aware of an easy way to tweak the UCM configuration (modifying distro-provided files is not good). I don't really get the talk about system integrators. This seems like an end-user setting to me. > Right, that's my concern. Many users with HDMI monitor that is > capable of audio don't use HDMI audio because they don't need it > and/or the output sucks. For them, this feature is superfluous and > harmful from the runtime PM POV. > > If it were provided via UCM, would it be yet another UCM profile like > HDMI+silentstream? This can be confusing, too, I'm afraid. > > From the interface POV, as Kai suggested in another mail, the > analogy to power_save option makes sense. OTOH, power_save is the > knob that is better to be enabled (as long as it works), silent stream > is the feature that is needed only when required. So it comes to the > question which interface is easier to manage. Having a separate UCM "profile" (do you mean a verb or a device?) seems overkill. I think there could be a device-specific variable, like SilentStreamControl, which would indicate that the device supports the silent stream feature. The variable would also point to the mixer control for enabling it. That said, I don't see much need for involving UCM at all. UCM becomes more relevant if we want PulseAudio to provide an API for controlling this feature, but until that happens, just having a mixer control that users can toggle seems sufficient to me. (I'm assuming that ALSA remembers mixer settings between boots. I'm not sure if that's the case, but I have the impression that the alsa-state thingy is universally enabled and implements this.) -- Tanu https://www.patreon.com/tanuk https://liberapay.com/tanuk ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] [PATCH] ALSA: hda/hdmi: Add Intel silent stream support
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 02:18:58 +0200, Arun Raghavan wrote: > > +pulseaudio-discuss for information > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2020, at 1:33 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:05:14 +0200, > > Pierre-Louis Bossart wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/24/20 11:43 AM, Takashi Iwai wrote: > > > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 17:33:45 +0200, > > > > Pierre-Louis Bossart wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > > The silent stream is enabled with a Kconfig option, as well as a > > > > kernel > > > > parameter should there be a need to override the build time default. > > > > > > I'm not sure whether the module option is the best interface. > > > An alternative is a mixer element that controls dynamically. Then > > > it'll be per card unlike the module option. > > > >>> > > > >>> +1, kcontrol seems the appropriate way to control this. > > > >> > > > >> It was my suggestion to use Kconfig+kernel parameter for > > > >> simplicity/overrides. > > > >> > > > >> The kcontrol is a nice idea, but in practice we typically only have > > > >> one card dealing with HDMI. > > > > > > > > Not really. There are systems with two HDMI outputs from both > > > > integrated and discrete GPUs. Most modern systems are only with > > > > hybrid graphics, though. > > > > > > Ok, maybe I am mistaken, in most of the HDMI issues we've seen only > > > one HDMI source. > > > > > > But it's a good point that this is only supposed to be used for Intel > > > whether it's a kernel parameter or a kcontrol shouldn't this be > > > dependent on a PCI ID being detected and a SKYLAKE flag being set? > > > it's my understanding that this applies from Skylake to TigerLake, not > > > before. > > > > I guess we can check it from the codec ID? Change the probe function > > for Skylake+ codecs to patch_i915_skl_hdmi and co, and set the flag > > there. > > > > > >> It also doesn't have a UCM representation > > > >> so would force the use of amixer and manual configs, or the UCM file > > > >> would always set the mode. > > > > > > > > But people usually use the distro kernels, so the situation is more or > > > > less equivalent; you'd have to adjust a module option manually if you > > > > want a different one from the default, and you'd have to be root to > > > > change it. > > > > > > > > So, rather the question is how we should provide the setup of such > > > > parameter. It's supposed to be a part of power management stuff that > > > > should be touched by either a smart PM tool or a manual override such > > > > as runtime PM setup? Or can it be seen as a more casual tuning? > > > > > > I am not aware of such tools. The only thing I know is that some of > > > the HDaudio power settings are already controlled by kernel > > > parameters, e.g. > > > > > > /etc/modprobe.d/audio_powersave.conf > > > options snd_hda_intel power_save=1 > > > > Yes, it's been the primary knob for years to turn on/off the runtime > > PM for HD-audio and other legacy drivers. This was used by powertop > > or some other power-aware daemons and tools, to be toggled dynamically > > per the power cable state or such. > > > > And, how the silent stream feature should be seen? > > Should it be a system-wide root-only setup or adjustable per user? > > Would it be changed often? Such questions and answers will lead us to > > the right direction, I hope. > > For audio, would UCM not be the appropriate point for a system integrator to > decide how the audio device should be set up? > > This would allow for a choice based on the situation in which the device is > actually being deployed without users having to muck around with module > parameters -- maybe someone wants want this enabled for an HTPC setup, but > not on a desktop connected to a monitor. Right, that's my concern. Many users with HDMI monitor that is capable of audio don't use HDMI audio because they don't need it and/or the output sucks. For them, this feature is superfluous and harmful from the runtime PM POV. If it were provided via UCM, would it be yet another UCM profile like HDMI+silentstream? This can be confusing, too, I'm afraid. From the interface POV, as Kai suggested in another mail, the analogy to power_save option makes sense. OTOH, power_save is the knob that is better to be enabled (as long as it works), silent stream is the feature that is needed only when required. So it comes to the question which interface is easier to manage. thanks, Takashi ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] [PATCH] ALSA: hda/hdmi: Add Intel silent stream support
+pulseaudio-discuss for information On Wed, 24 Jun 2020, at 1:33 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote: > On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 19:05:14 +0200, > Pierre-Louis Bossart wrote: > > > > > > > > On 6/24/20 11:43 AM, Takashi Iwai wrote: > > > On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 17:33:45 +0200, > > > Pierre-Louis Bossart wrote: > > >> > > >> > > > The silent stream is enabled with a Kconfig option, as well as a > > > kernel > > > parameter should there be a need to override the build time default. > > > > I'm not sure whether the module option is the best interface. > > An alternative is a mixer element that controls dynamically. Then > > it'll be per card unlike the module option. > > >>> > > >>> +1, kcontrol seems the appropriate way to control this. > > >> > > >> It was my suggestion to use Kconfig+kernel parameter for > > >> simplicity/overrides. > > >> > > >> The kcontrol is a nice idea, but in practice we typically only have > > >> one card dealing with HDMI. > > > > > > Not really. There are systems with two HDMI outputs from both > > > integrated and discrete GPUs. Most modern systems are only with > > > hybrid graphics, though. > > > > Ok, maybe I am mistaken, in most of the HDMI issues we've seen only > > one HDMI source. > > > > But it's a good point that this is only supposed to be used for Intel > > whether it's a kernel parameter or a kcontrol shouldn't this be > > dependent on a PCI ID being detected and a SKYLAKE flag being set? > > it's my understanding that this applies from Skylake to TigerLake, not > > before. > > I guess we can check it from the codec ID? Change the probe function > for Skylake+ codecs to patch_i915_skl_hdmi and co, and set the flag > there. > > > >> It also doesn't have a UCM representation > > >> so would force the use of amixer and manual configs, or the UCM file > > >> would always set the mode. > > > > > > But people usually use the distro kernels, so the situation is more or > > > less equivalent; you'd have to adjust a module option manually if you > > > want a different one from the default, and you'd have to be root to > > > change it. > > > > > > So, rather the question is how we should provide the setup of such > > > parameter. It's supposed to be a part of power management stuff that > > > should be touched by either a smart PM tool or a manual override such > > > as runtime PM setup? Or can it be seen as a more casual tuning? > > > > I am not aware of such tools. The only thing I know is that some of > > the HDaudio power settings are already controlled by kernel > > parameters, e.g. > > > > /etc/modprobe.d/audio_powersave.conf > > options snd_hda_intel power_save=1 > > Yes, it's been the primary knob for years to turn on/off the runtime > PM for HD-audio and other legacy drivers. This was used by powertop > or some other power-aware daemons and tools, to be toggled dynamically > per the power cable state or such. > > And, how the silent stream feature should be seen? > Should it be a system-wide root-only setup or adjustable per user? > Would it be changed often? Such questions and answers will lead us to > the right direction, I hope. For audio, would UCM not be the appropriate point for a system integrator to decide how the audio device should be set up? This would allow for a choice based on the situation in which the device is actually being deployed without users having to muck around with module parameters -- maybe someone wants want this enabled for an HTPC setup, but not on a desktop connected to a monitor. -- Arun ___ pulseaudio-discuss mailing list pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
