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discussion of Python 3.x takes place on python-...@python.org.
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Martin
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Should I be concerned?
Depends on what you want to do with Python.
> Though I expect the answer to be 'No', is Python
> 3.0 just as ok to use as if /all /the tests passed?
Definitely not. Some things will not work. If you want to debug this,
you should start looking into the test_sy
> Any idea why this could be? Any hints on how to get around this?
The Python interpreter that you just built is crashing. There is no
work-around, but you should run it in a debugger and find out why it
is crashing.
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Martin
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plicitly subscribe to python-dev and python-checkins
if they want to continue to follow the discussion.
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mailing lists would change
into read-only mode (i.e. primarily leaving the archives behind).
Any objections?
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Martin
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Giovanni Bajo wrote:
> On gio, 2008-11-27 at 00:29 +0100, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
>>> So, deducing from your reply, this "merge module" is a thing that allows
>>> to install the CRT (and other shared components)?
>> Correct. More generally, a mer
he respective source
directory). You also need to consider the features structure; there
is a "current" feature at any point in time, and all components being
added get added to the current feature.
HTH,
Martin
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CRT bundled. I
> personally don't see this as a show-stopper (does anyone ever build
> the .msi besides Martin?).
I personally don't have any interest to spend any time on an alternative
technology. The current technology works fine for me, and I understand
it fully. Everybody in t
ostly-complete installer,
I'm sure Giovanni would be happy to add support for the CRT merge
module to see how the tool fares (my expectation is that it breaks,
as I assume it just doesn't deal with the embedded ALLUSERS property
correctly - merge.py really uses a bad hack
> I've had good results with Advanced Installer:
> http://www.advancedinstaller.com/feats-list.html
So how much effort would it be to create a Python installer?
Could you kindly provide one?
Regards,
Martin
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f NSIS suggest that NSIS would
fail this requirement.
- it supports installation through Windows Domain policy. I would be
willing to drop this requirement, but I believe some users would not
be happy. Nothing but MSI has this capability (by design of Windows
Active Directory
ms understanding it, and can understand
msi.py much better (surprise, surprise). For a newcomer, my feeling is
that learning WiX and learning msi.py is about the same effort - you
really need to "get" MSI files.
Regards,
Martin
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anagement problem because the
license was only available on a single machine - so it was difficult
for anybody else to jump in and do a release.
> In short: if msi.py and the fact it breaks is part of the issue here,
> it's very easy to solve in
data type for size in, say, s# parsers.
Is it ok to still change that?
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Martin
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ode
page (CP_OEMCP). The latter is what the terminal window uses. Python
does not directly expose the Microsoft OEMCP codec; instead, it
determines the terminal's code page, and then carries its own codec for
that code page ("gbk" in your case).
To make your example w
hich I think is 9:00
your time). Around what time would you expect to have the tag set?
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Martin
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ne in a beta release or release
candidate, since one does get things wrong the first time.
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Martin
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> Martin, I'm keen on figuring out a way to reduce your workload, and also
> to coordinate releases better between us. I /think/ with timed releases
> I can tag a little early and give you something to work on so that the
> actual release is a matter of fiddling web pag
't run on my workstation - which
is 32-bit XP. It might be possible to automate it, but IMO, the
effort of setting this up would be higher than the actual time spend
in doing it manually, assuming we have no more than a dozen releases per
year.
Regards,
Martin
__
> Martin, maybe we can help you with the installers testing.
Thanks for the offer. See my other message, though - this is not the
point. If everything goes well, offloading testing just means that
I have to wait some time for the testers to come back, and do other
stuff meanwhile.
For
e. ctypes doesn't, and if you don't, they may be
garbage collected, crashing your program when a callback is made.
Martin
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ent ways:
as admin user and non-admin user. The automated GUI testing only really
works for a logged-in user.
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to a high degree,
my part is, unfortunately, much less automated. I could personally
automate the build process a bit more, but part of it is also testing
of the installers, which is manual.
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>> Should we release 2.6.1rc1, too?
>
> Do we need rc's for point releases?
We have been doing them in the past, a week before the release.
In this case, I could accept a waiver, given that the previous
release acts very well as a release candidate for this release.
> I know that it had worked in the version 2.5, Python 3.0 rc2 doesn't
> seem to recognize it as a function.
a) I discourage usage of unicode and str converters; consider using
.encode/.decode instead
b) unicode is now called str
Rega
rename the entry to "Python 2.5", say, without
affecting how it's named in the start menu. So why does
Terry say that his renaming renamed it in two places?
Finally, what is the specific problem with
right-on-click-.py-file context menu wrt. duplicate names?
Regards,
Martin
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ic abilities are zero.
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Martin
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start list, and how did you get Python into it?
> It would be really helpful if
> there was a new icon for 3.0.
Contributions are welcome.
Regards,
Martin
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Roger Binns wrote:
> Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>>> Also why not remove PyObject_HEAD_INIT from Python 3 headers so that if
>>> it is used then the compile fails?
>> It's still needed for non-var objects.
>
> Wouldn't a var object have PyVarObject_HEA
> Obviously the Python 3 documentation and examples need to be updated.
I see - please submit a bug report.
> Also why not remove PyObject_HEAD_INIT from Python 3 headers so that if
> it is used then the compile fails?
It's still needed for non-var objects.
R
; don't all match each other!
I cannot parse this sentence.
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Martin
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FileIO.close, then
RawIOBase.close? IIUC, FileIO.close will close the file handle,
yet RawIOBase will attempt to flush afterwards.
> Maybe the warning could be dropped all along, too.
That sounds useful.
Regards,
Martin
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>>> I am using bits of PUA
>> Which bits specifically?
>
> Well, not bits in the technical sense, just a small range U+E650...U+E677.
:-) That's exactly what I wanted to know. If Python ever uses PUA
characters, there shouldn't be any collisions wi
> I am using bits of PUA
Which bits specifically?
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Martin
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ule object anywhere,
in constant time.
If you have specific proposals on how to make this more convenient to
use, please go ahead. (also, if you think that this somehow flawed:
this would be the time to mention it)
Regards,
Martin
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think POSIX assigns specific
code points, so it doesn't have to be a superset in the coded character
set sense.
I'm sure those VMS users will tell us some day.
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Martin
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m encoding"
is also flawed - but do you infer from that that it also should be
removed?
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Martin
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ain
> to cut releases 3 weeks in a row?
It's a lot of effort, yes. Also for users, who will have barely
installed one release candidate when the next one comes out.
Regards,
Martin
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James Y Knight wrote:
> or at least fully recognized and documented as a half-baked
> solution.
I would prefer that, leaving a full resolution to 3.1 (or perhaps 3.2).
If we wait long enough, the issue will disappear (a strategy that Sun
is apparently taking for Java :-)
Regards,
argv and environ: are you suggesting that the behavior described
in the PEP is desirable? I don't think it is (but I don't think it
should change for 3.0, either, only for 3.1)
Regards,
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7;m not really in a position to
> help with the above for that period...)
But please do file bug reports, preferably along with any patches to
distutils that you already have.
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Martin
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- There's no os.environb for bytewise access to the environment. Seems
> important.
Not to me. I don't have environment variables with non-ASCII characters
in them, and I think few other people do.
> I'm sure there's even more APIs dealing with pathnames, command line
talk too many people into porting, since
there will be some glitches which need to be resolved, and may not get
resolved before 3.2 or so. So people with a natural wariness are advised
to trust this wariness, or else all their concerns become
self-fulfilling prophecies.
Regards,
Martin
_
t's an interesting thought.
Is that opportunity actually used? I.e. is there a Python implementation
that does work correctly in the presence of setdefaultencoding? I find
that hard to believe.
Regards,
Martin
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> About the coding header, IDLE doesn't read #coding: header. Here is a fix
> (use
> tokenize.detect_encoding):
> http://bugs.python.org/issue4008
Are you really sure about that? It did in the past.
Regards,
Martin
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"unformatted" IO) deal
just fine with embedded NULL characters.
> * Java doesn't support unicode > 0x (bouuuuh!)
I don't think that is true anymore.
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Martin
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e higher-layer Object-C based APIs do normalize, IIUC)
As Guido says: it's no problem.
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Martin
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> However, Martin, I can promise you that I will _never_ ask for any
> convenience functions related to bytes as a result of this decision.
:-)
Regards,
Martin
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thon side (i.e. can they
> both be returned from listdir() and passed to open())?
Certainly!
> CIf I compare
> these two filenames, do they compare differently?
Certainly!
Regards,
Martin
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r bad designs in other places, but this one really
gives a good tradeoff of all issues, all things considered).
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Martin
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hat would its listFiles() method do with
> undecodable filenames?
Apparently (JDK 1.5.0_16, on Linux), it decodes undecodable bytes/byte
sequences as U+FFFD (REPLACEMENT CHARACTER). Opening such a file will
fail with FileNotFoundException.
IOW, Java hasn't solved the problem in the last
ight be the way to
> go for these interfaces - leaving the bytes objects in place if the
> Unicode decode operation fails.
While I can sympathize with people having non-ASCII file names on their
disks, I can't sympathize with this example. Normal users just don't
put \x90 into their co
mbers/storage
> initialised?)
> Do you reckon it would make sense to add an example for such a case to
> the Embedding and Extending part of the docs?
Sure! Contributions are welcome.
Regards,
Martin
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rted later. Unix missed the opportunity
of declaring that all file APIs are UTF-8 (except for Plan-9 and OS X,
neither being "true" Unix).
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Martin
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might give you a list of file names
which you then can't open/stat/recurse into.
(of course, you could use UTF-8 as the file system encoding on Windows,
but then you will have to rewrite a lot of C code first)
Regards,
Martin
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rrives through BDFL pronouncement,
in which case no PEP is needed.
Regards,
Martin
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ot;mbcs")
encoding; this is inside the system DLLs.
CP_ACP is a lossy encoding (from Unicode to bytes): Microsoft uses
replacement characters if they can, starting with similarly-looking
characters, and falling back to question marks.
Regards,
Martin
_
;PATH"]). And so on (passwd/group file,
Tkinter, ...)
Regards,
Martin
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n to introduce a new data type in the strict sense - merely
to pass through undecodable bytes through the regular Unicode type.
So the result of adding them is a regular Unicode string.
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Martin
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Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 11:00 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Change the default file system encoding to store bytes in Unicode is like
>>> introducing a new Python type: .
>> Exactly. Seems like the
> Change the default file system encoding to store bytes in Unicode is like
> introducing a new Python type: .
Exactly. Seems like the best solution to me, despite your polemics.
Regards,
Martin
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-8b / PUA hacks?
Not sure what "it" is: to write the code above using the PUA hack:
for filename in os.listdir(os.getcwd())
text = repr(filename)
print("=== File {0} ===".format(text))
for line in open(filenmae):
...
code using 8859-1 to get back the original bytes.
I still don't understand. 8859-1 is an encoding, not a datatype.
So how do you propose file names to be represented? "In 8859-1"
is not a valid answer, because you cannot derive an implementation
from that answer (atleast,
I do (in 2.x)
py> "foo".decode("iso-8859-1")
u'foo'
ISTM that 8859-1 is all about decoding, so I don't understand why
you say it is a way not to decode.
Regards,
Martin
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r 3.1
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ing. If they set
it to Latin-1, they can access all files on a POSIX system.
- use private-use characters for unrepresentable bytes
For the second item, there was the immediate objection that this gives
conflicts in UTF-8, for which UTF-8b could be a good solution.
> "broken" systems will always exist. Code to deal with them must be
> possible to write in python 3.0.
Python 3.0 will have bugs. This might just be one of them. I can agree
that Python 3.x will need to support that somehow, but perhaps not 3.0.
_dealloc, to only optionally release
the pointer (and probably also to not put the object into the freelist
if it doesn't have a str pointer). IOW, no :-)
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> How about putting the variable sized data _before_ the struct?
That won't work for container objects (such as tuples); they already
have the GC structure before the PyObject, whose size and layout is
opaque to the objects.
Regards,
Martin
__
> base_address + base_address[ob_len]*elem_size - more_fields_size
The subtraction is wrong, of course - it's still an addition. I was
just confused by tp_dictoffset being negative in that case; the sign
is but a mere flag in that case, and the offset is still positive.
Regards
this would interact with subtypes of subtypes, and
> what the memory layout would be in that case.
See above.
Regards,
Martin
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#x27;m really curious about Stefan's explanation why efficient subclassing
of str is not possible in Cython (is it not possible at all? is it
possible but inefficient? if so, how much, and why?)
Regards,
Martin
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f you
are worried about __dict__-stored attributes being too slow (*), this
approach could be a solution.
(*) This assumes that the lack of additional slots actually *is* your
concern.
Regards,
Martin
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? What's the licensing implications?
For 3.0, I think that is too late.
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Martin
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lead
to parsing problems" (i.e. if the parser hasn't been told that a
higher-layer protocol was in place). This is currently the case in 3.0:
py> d=xml.dom.minidom.parseString("\u20ac")
py> d.documentElement.childNodes[0].data
'â\x
Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 6:29 AM, Edward K. Ream <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> No b3 installers for windows at http://www.python.org/download/releases/3.0/
>>
>
> We know. Martin, who usually does the Windows installer, is on vacation.
And I will
the proper decode before
> proceeding.
That's the parser's job (and one that expat does correctly).
Regards,
Martin
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wouldn't need such an alias.
> The problem can't be resolved when we're using CF string interface
> only. The codec would be appropriate just for secondary use when
> the main codec isn't available.
I think these restrictions are fine.
Regards,
Martin
P.S. I don&
f C code which can be reviewed quickly.
If that code cannot be contributed, I then prefer your option 3:
make mac_getscript return the slightly incorrect codec names. It's
better than returning "ascii" (which I think it should do, anyway,
as a fall
> Any thoughts?
That is http://bugs.python.org/issue586680, right?
As a work-around, test_cmd_line should set PYTHONPATH to include
the build directory (i.e. what addbuilddir has added).
Regards,
Martin
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t further complicated
by case, e.g. German (likewise for Russian)
"the first man" - "der erste Mann"
"for the first man" - "für den ersten Mann"
Regards,
Martin
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> In this message I'll discuss a scheme for handling complex
> translations with multiple numeric parameters.
Please take a look at the plural support in gettext. I think it
should allow you to achieve the proper string substitution already
today.
Rega
k it does most of what you propose, including letting the
translators write the little code snippets that will determine if it
should be '1 file' or 'n files'.
The gettext manual has more to say here:
http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/gettext.html#Plural-forms
--
changed to accommodate these changes?
Regards,
Martin
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> +1 OverflowErrors should probably by reserved for numeric overflows.
In a sense, passing sys.maxsize as a string size *is* a numeric
overflow - the size can't be represented in the available variable.
Regards,
Martin
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> What about a new keyword argument to the constructor, "encoding". If
> specified, *only* accept unicode (and do the conversion internally).
Would that apply to keys, values, or both?
Regards,
Martin
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> So, I'm thinking seriously in accepting *ONLY* "bytes" in the bsddb API
> (when working under Python 3.0), and do the proxy thing *ONLY* in the
> testsuite, to be able to reuse it.
>
> What do you think?.
I think you should write the test suite in te
(o))
If you don't want to use intobject.h, write
#ifndef PyInt_Check
#define PyInt_Check(x) PyLong_Check(x)
#endif
at the top, then use the same if block.
HTH,
Martin
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.[3-6] and Python 3.0?. I would
> like to avoid conditional compilation, if possible.
>
>> I think PyNumber_Check should do the trick.
PyNumber_Check also succeeds for floats, right? so it shouldn't be
use when checking for integers is desired.
Regards,
Martin
, as the 2.6 code hasn't been merged into
3k. I somewhat doubt that this gets resolved before the release, so
bsddb users might need to skip 3.0.
Regards,
Martin
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> I think it's definitely too short. Martin has outlined a clean solution to
> this
> but it's a lot of changes. Let's wait for beta 3.
FWIW, I started writing code today. I couldn't complete it, either (i.e.
it's for 2.6 only, has no docs, and only fixes a sing
>> I'm puzzled how this might have happened.
>
> Someone obviously did search & replace a5 -> b1, intended for Python
> version, but applied to md5 too.
Ah, ok. Thanks for the explanation. That might have been me, a
have occurred in the editor, or
the cut-n-paste - which in itself is frightening.
Regards,
Martin
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? Not done yet?
>>
>> Why would you think this file deserves any mentioning in the
>> documentation at all?
>
> 'Doc' refers to documentation for (lib)2to3 (see subject line), not the
> surprising g...pickle. I expected mention of the former because
Ah,
is
> ?
I suggest to drop it.
Of course, the beta has been released, and such a change (just as the
addition of an ASCII flag) require release manager approval, IMO.
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Martin
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t; or did grammar3.0.0.beta.a.pickle only make 2.6b1?
>
> I cannot find any doc in the libref (it would belong, I believe, in
> Development Tools). Intentional? Not done yet?
Why would you think this file deserves any mentioning in the
documen
> so, how do you deal with bytes in these cases?
Set your locale correctly so that the filename is properly decoded
as a string. Then, bytes will not show up.
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Martin
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f is a module (or, vice versa, the expected type).
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ization into a separate
function, and then have both init and PyInit_ call that
function.
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ange indeed systematically breaks all modules, this breakage
is shallow: it's usually straight-forward to port a module to 3.0 with
little changes to the init function.
Regards,
Martin
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