[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[R. Jayakrishnan]

R. Jayakrishnan added the comment:

I would prefer this issue concludes with a navigation to the new proposed 
enhancement.

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger added the comment:

[TJR]
> I am opposed to this specific proposal and 
> think this issue should be closed.

[Ramchandra Apte]
> Agree with Terry Reedy.

[R. Jayakrishnan]
> Better to close this issue then ...

I agree as well.

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resolution:  -> rejected
status: open -> closed

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[R. Jayakrishnan]

R. Jayakrishnan added the comment:

Thanks for showing great interest on this idea.
As usual, it seems this will going to be another nice project with IDLE for me. 
Better to close this issue then, and create an appropriate initiation with the 
suggested points(preferring a commencement by core developers).
 
Anyway to keep in touch with the Python analyzing and related tools, I have 
initiated a separate project with porting the works done on the patch here 
https://github.com/Jay-Krish/IDLEAnalyzer.
I Hope this will help further while working on this project.

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Ramchandra Apte]

Ramchandra Apte added the comment:

Agree with Terry Reedy.

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy added the comment:

Summary:
I am in favor of making more Python code analysis available from within Idle. I 
have an alternate, more generalized proposal. I am opposed to this specific 
proposal and think this issue should be closed.

Alternatives: when and how to analyze.

1. Local analysis as the user types ('on the fly'). One example is smart 
indentation, which includes conversion of \t to spaces (this is PEP 8 
enforcement!) and backspace to multiple deletes. Others are calltips and code 
completion.  We might consider doing a bit more syntax checking, but would have 
to be very careful about style enforcement.

2. Block or whole file analysis within the text widget upon user request. 
Examples include search, reformatting, and whitespace stripping. The result is 
shown within the text widget (except for the bug on Windows that search still 
does not highlight found results while the dialog is active).

3. Analysis of one or more external files with Idle code. 'Find in Files' 
applies one pattern to file names and another to lines within found files and 
presents hits in an output (editor) window. The output lines contain file name, 
line number, and code line formatted so that right click, 'Go to file/line' 
opens the file if necessary and jumps to the indicated line.

4. Analysis of the saved editor file with external code. 'Run' (normally) does 
this (and more), with the complication that a socket rather than stdio streams 
are used for communication. Results appear in the shell window. Although 
tracebacks put file name and line number on one line and code on the next, 'Go 
to file/line' works when either is right-clicked. (Although Run now uses the 
same interpreter that is running Idle, this does not necessarily have to be so.)


Proposal: Run with ... 

What I would like to see is a generic option to save and run the current window 
with appropriate external programs. This proposal combines ideas from 3. and 4. 
above. The interface would be the addition of 'Run with ...' to the Run menu. 
Selecting that would bring up a submenu.

I would use subprocess to start the program (as is done with Run now). A 
command-line template would be needed for each supported external program. 
Unlike Run, subprocess would be used to capture stdout and stderr, as needed. 
The filtered output would be presented in a new Output Window, as done with 
Find-in-Files.

To me, the main value-added of doing this from Idle is being able to jump from 
output chunks to targets in an editor window for possible editing. I would only 
officially support external programs for which this is sensible, whose output 
includes line numbers and messages for possible action. Each supported program 
would need an output filter function to add the filename (if not present) to 
the line number and message and otherwise format as needed.

This proposal needs more details. how are external programs located if 
installed? (Ezio suggested the possibility of easy download and installation if 
not. I would start with instructions in the docs.) How is the submenu 
populated. How might users add templates and filter functions for programs not 
supported?  Such program might include locally written programs. There should 
be a PEP or at least PEP-like specification. Since the only stdlib addition 
would be to idlelib, backporting could be considered.


What I think is wrong with the current proposal.

1. There is no specification.

2. It is limited to one category of analysis. Within that category, it 'plays 
favorites' by picking a winner. I think users should be able to use whatever 
style analysis program they have already chosen, with the configuration options 
they have already selected. Not yet mentioned here are PyLint and PyChecker.

3. Rather than pick the 'best of breed' (if there is one), it picks what some 
would consider to be the 'worst of breed'. The PEP8 module, or at least the way 
it has been used, violates PEP 8 by treating guidelines as rigid rules, even 
though PEP 8 says not to do that. Some of the recent edits to PEP 8 were 
intended to counteract the negative effect of this module.

4. It proposes to add an external program to the stdlib without the needed PEP. 
I believe the idea of adding one of PyChecker, PyFlakes, and PyLint has already 
been rejected for multiple reasons (there is no winner, these are apps or 
tools, not library 'batteries', they are better off maintained where they are, 
we cannot maintain what we already have, etc.). The fact that these programs 
have (or should have) persistent configuration and customization files shows 
that they are apps, like Idle, and not library modules.

5. It proposes to add the external program in the wrong place. Idlelib should 
only contain Idle-specific code. Need I add that Idle is also under-maintained?

My proposal would start with a specification, would allow user choice, would 
generalize to other categories and programs (spell checking?), would 

[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Ezio Melotti]

Ezio Melotti added the comment:

> I think modern editors are expected to have this sort of functionality
> built into them [1].

Mine doesn't :)

> XCode is simply amazing where it will pop up errors and quote the C99
> standard [2].

That's a standard though, the ones in PEP8 are just 
conventions/guidelines/suggestions.

> We don't expect IDLE to have all that functionality but it seemed to
> us like it would be great to add pep8 or PyFlakes to IDLE.

AFAIU PyFlakes should be able to catch actual problems with the code -- not 
just simply suggesting a particular style -- so it would be a better candidate.

> It is possible we could create an extension but that would void
> Python's motto "batteries included".

Often editors are able to download extensions automatically from a central 
place, without having to ship them all by default.  Doing this is probably more 
work though, but on the other hand it would be more flexible.

> In addition tools like pep8 and PyFlakes could be useful for other purposes 
> as well.

Are you suggesting to include it directly in the stdlib, and not as part of 
IDLE?

> JayKrish is checking with the authors of pep8 about license issues.

Note that that's not the only issue.  Even if the license is OK, before 
inclusion we would have to make sure that the module meets the quality 
standards for the repo and that the author is still active and willing to 
maintain it for at least a few years in the CPython repo.  A PEP would likely 
be required, especially if the module gets included directly in the stdlib (as 
opposed as including it just in IDLE).  This also means that external 
development of the module should stop and move to the stdlib, and follow the 
release schedule of Python instead of release whenever they want (in theory 
they could maintain both, but it's more work).

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Todd Rovito]

Changes by Todd Rovito :


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nosy: +terry.reedy

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Todd Rovito]

Todd Rovito added the comment:

Raymond,
   Would you prefer PyFlakes instead?  Try to consider IDLE being for beginners 
so they need all the help they can get.  Advanced users can always turn the 
extension off.  Thanks for your input.

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Todd Rovito]

Todd Rovito added the comment:

Ezio,
   I think modern editors are expected to have this sort of functionality built 
into them [1].  XCode is simply amazing where it will pop up errors and quote 
the C99 standard [2].  We don't expect IDLE to have all that functionality but 
it seemed to us like it would be great to add pep8 or PyFlakes to IDLE.  It is 
possible we could create an extension but that would void Python's motto 
"batteries included".  In addition tools like pep8 and PyFlakes could be useful 
for other purposes as well.  JayKrish is checking with the authors of pep8 
about license issues.  As always we will defer to the judgement of Core 
Developers and could pursue either option.  


[1] Wikipeida Microsoft Visual Studio, 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio#Code_editor
[2] XCode, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCode

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status: pending -> open

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Ezio Melotti]

Ezio Melotti added the comment:

Can't this be developed as an external extension?
I don't see a reason to include it in the stdlib, especially if it requires 
other dependencies (like the pep8 module).

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nosy: +ezio.melotti
status: open -> pending

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Raymond Hettinger]

Raymond Hettinger added the comment:

-1 on giving PEP 8 any more weight than it already has.

Automated PEP 8 checker tools do away the human commen sense component (the 
foolish consistency quote is in PEP 8 for a reason).

Another downside is that rigid adherence to PEP 8 tends to focus beginners on 
the least important aspects of code quality.  We would be much better-off with 
integration of PyFlakes or a similar tool that focus on actual semantic errors 
in the code.

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nosy: +rhettinger

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Raymond Hettinger]

Changes by Raymond Hettinger :


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versions:  -Python 2.7, Python 3.3

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[R. Jayakrishnan]

Changes by R. Jayakrishnan :


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nosy: +philwebster

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[Ramchandra Apte]

Ramchandra Apte added the comment:

I like the idea of having a PEP8-checker for IDLE.

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nosy: +Ramchandra Apte

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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[R. Jayakrishnan]

Changes by R. Jayakrishnan :


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[issue18704] IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration

[R. Jayakrishnan]

New submission from R. Jayakrishnan:

This is to create an IDLE extension that would integrate PEP8 (Syntax Style 
Checker https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8 ) into the IDLE editor window,so the 
developer who is using the IDLE editor can quickly and frequently check the 
PEP8 standards of the code which is being developed in an IDLE editor window. 
Many modern IDE's have not only syntax highlighting but on the fly syntax 
checking.

Python ensures the quality of code with its own standards implemented as PEP8. 
The tool pep8 checks Python code against some of the style conventions in PEP8. 
Also the PEP8 standardization should not be a ‘must emphasizing’ for a python 
developer, therefore configuring pep8 to enable/disable errors and warning in 
various levels should be implemented.

The implementation work is started by Todd at 
https://bitbucket.org/rovitotv/pythonpatches/src/fae1fdab936043ec35db541808f5789325762fb3/PEP8CheckExtension.patch?at=default

The submitted patch is an effort started from Todd's patch as an example. 
The IDLE with this patch will show PEP8 style check toggle menu in Options.
Once PEP8 check enabled the current module is checked by pep8 tool and the 
defects will be shown in a extended left pane. 
Defect codes will be listed as a Buttons, button click leads to highlighting 
the line and column of the defect and scroll editor window if needed. 
It is expected that the developer will correct the defect with the help of the 
message and eventually press the Resolve button,which refresh the pane.

This is an initial work and I am looking forward for suggestions on 
improvements and mistakes of this patch.

--
components: IDLE
files: PEP8Extension_1.patch
keywords: patch
messages: 194841
nosy: JayKrish
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: IDLE: PEP8 Style Check Integration
type: enhancement
versions: Python 2.7, Python 3.3, Python 3.4
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file31221/PEP8Extension_1.patch

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