[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-12 Thread M.-A. Lemburg 
On 11.12.2019 20:19, Brett Cannon wrote:
> As for the "please email everyone personally", I just don't have the time to 
> email 30 people that Giampolo listed or the 89 total people who could vote 
> but didn't commit or author something in the past two years . But do note 
> that me lacking the time doesn't mean someone else can't take it upon 
> themselves to reach out to folks and let them know about them (risking) 
> falling off in this vote or in future votes as all of this information and 
> code is accessible to all core developers; other than Ernest's roll of 
> managing the vote no one is in a place of privilege, just in a place of 
> putting the time in. I personally have already sank days into making this 
> vote work starting months ago via pulling together the historical record and 
> spending all of my precious coding time at the core dev sprints this year 
> writing the code to generate the voter roll, and so sinking even more by 
> managing a personal email to everyone is just too much for me to dedicate on 
> top of everything else.
I can help with that. I use mail merge frequently as part of running
EuroPython. All I need is a CSV file with the names and emails (or
some other format).

As for recording who responded and how, I'd suggest to add flags
to the core dev database, which I can then update and Ernest can
use for the voters roll script.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread Barry Warsaw 
On Dec 11, 2019, at 02:28, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> I'm sorry, but I had not expected to be delisted and thus did not
> check the voters list.

I didn’t expect to be delisted either but I’m sufficiently paranoid to have 
double checked that I was still on the voter list.

Cheers,
-Barry



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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread Fred Drake 
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 2:31 PM Mariatta  wrote:

> Re: notifying and sending email to people who were marked as inactive by
> the script.
> We can send automated email via Zapier. Let me know how I can help with
> this part.
>

I think an automated email to the candidates for removal which is very
direct about their imminent removal would be sufficiently effective.  The
difficult part is getting the wording right without sounding like a fire
alarm.


  -Fred

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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread Mariatta 
Thanks Brett.

Re: notifying and sending email to people who were marked as inactive by
the script.
We can send automated email via Zapier. Let me know how I can help with
this part.



On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 11:20 AM Brett Cannon  wrote:

> I want to make two quick points and then I'm bowing out of this
> conversation as this isn't going to change anything for this vote beyond
> the exemption we have already granted and no changes to PEP 13 have been
> proposed. I was trying to avoid this conversation dragging out right now,
> but people keep commenting so I want to try and provide some visibility as
> to how this ended up this way and then ask people just wait until someone
> proposes something to concretely change PEP 13 (or at least that's what I
> plan to do ).
>
> To Hynek's "code = vote" comment, technically it's "authorship or
> committal of a change in the past two years to CPython from when the voter
> roll was generated = vote". IOW you could have fixed a spelling mistake,
> merged a PR, or even made a commit and then reverted it immediately and
> still been automatically included in the voter roll. Basically the term
> "active" is very subjective and I did not want to be accused of being
> biased or unfair in declaring who was (in)active, so I did the best I could
> to be objective and automate this since there are 167 people who could
> potentially vote (and we ended up with 78 with the current set-up).
>
> As for the "please email everyone personally", I just don't have the time
> to email 30 people that Giampolo listed or the 89 total people who could
> vote but didn't commit or author something in the past two years . But do
> note that me lacking the time doesn't mean someone else can't take it upon
> themselves to reach out to folks and let them know about them (risking)
> falling off in this vote or in future votes as all of this information and
> code is accessible to all core developers; other than Ernest's roll of
> managing the vote no one is in a place of privilege, just in a place of
> putting the time in. I personally have already sank days into making this
> vote work starting months ago via pulling together the historical record
> and spending all of my precious coding time at the core dev sprints this
> year writing the code to generate the voter roll, and so sinking even more
> by managing a personal email to everyone is just too much for me to
> dedicate on top of everything else.
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread Brett Cannon 
I want to make two quick points and then I'm bowing out of this conversation as 
this isn't going to change anything for this vote beyond the exemption we have 
already granted and no changes to PEP 13 have been proposed. I was trying to 
avoid this conversation dragging out right now, but people keep commenting so I 
want to try and provide some visibility as to how this ended up this way and 
then ask people just wait until someone proposes something to concretely change 
PEP 13 (or at least that's what I plan to do ).

To Hynek's "code = vote" comment, technically it's "authorship or committal of 
a change in the past two years to CPython from when the voter roll was 
generated = vote". IOW you could have fixed a spelling mistake, merged a PR, or 
even made a commit and then reverted it immediately and still been 
automatically included in the voter roll. Basically the term "active" is very 
subjective and I did not want to be accused of being biased or unfair in 
declaring who was (in)active, so I did the best I could to be objective and 
automate this since there are 167 people who could potentially vote (and we 
ended up with 78 with the current set-up).

As for the "please email everyone personally", I just don't have the time to 
email 30 people that Giampolo listed or the 89 total people who could vote but 
didn't commit or author something in the past two years . But do note that me 
lacking the time doesn't mean someone else can't take it upon themselves to 
reach out to folks and let them know about them (risking) falling off in this 
vote or in future votes as all of this information and code is accessible to 
all core developers; other than Ernest's roll of managing the vote no one is in 
a place of privilege, just in a place of putting the time in. I personally have 
already sank days into making this vote work starting months ago via pulling 
together the historical record and spending all of my precious coding time at 
the core dev sprints this year writing the code to generate the voter roll, and 
so sinking even more by managing a personal email to everyone is just too much 
for me to dedicate on top of everything else.
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread M.-A. Lemburg 
On 11.12.2019 00:58, Brett Cannon wrote:
> We discussed the situation on the steering council and we are fine with 
> making an exception for folks who felt caught off-guard asking Ernest to be 
> added to the voter roll even though voting has already started.

Thanks.

> In the new year I will work with Ernest to draft up a proposal for changing 
> PEP 13 to make this section of it clearer in regards to the expectations for 
> qualifying to vote.

Rather than editing PEP 13, I'd suggest to reconsider the process
and send out emails asking people directly.

It's easy enough to do using mail merge and avoids situations like
these.

In addition, it gives the process back the human touch, which I
sometimes miss with all these policies in place.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread Victor Stinner 
Le mer. 11 déc. 2019 à 01:00, Brett Cannon  a écrit :
> We discussed the situation on the steering council and we are fine with 
> making an exception for folks who felt caught off-guard asking Ernest to be 
> added to the voter roll even though voting has already started.
>
> In the new year I will work with Ernest to draft up a proposal for changing 
> PEP 13 to make this section of it clearer in regards to the expectations for 
> qualifying to vote.

That sounds like a good compromise for the current vote. Thanks Brett
and Ernest for handling this task ;-)

Victor
-- 
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread M.-A. Lemburg 
On 10.12.2019 23:57, Nick Coghlan wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 at 06:52, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>> The conversion to an inactive dev is something that core devs need
>> to be asked to agree to, and thus needs to be managed as a status
>> flag, not depend on commits to the repo.
> 
> All committers were asked to check the voter list in mid-November,
> before the ballot period started:
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/thread/EXT5XHEHPGJQS3LW5UG7SK63C2GJDJ2P/
> 
> The relevant section in PEP 13 is this one:
> 
> ==
> There's no time limit on core team membership. However, in order to
> provide the general public with a reasonable idea of how many people
> maintain Python, core team members who have stopped contributing are
> encouraged to declare themselves as "inactive". Those who haven't made
> any non-trivial contribution in two years may be asked to move
> themselves to this category, and moved there if they don't respond. To
> record and honor their contributions, inactive team members will
> continue to be listed alongside active core team members; and, if they
> later resume contributing, they can switch back to active status at
> will. While someone is in inactive status, though, they lose their
> active privileges like voting or nominating for the steering council,
> and commit access.
> ==
> 
> So everyone *was* asked if they wanted to be kept as active for this
> election, but it wasn't explicitly emphasised to the folks that were
> otherwise going to being marked as inactive that this was happening
> (as it had to be inferred from the absence of your name, rather than
> being called out as a list of voters that had been flagged as
> potentially inactive since the last voter roll was generated).

I'm sorry, but I had not expected to be delisted and thus did not
check the voters list.

The email also did not make it clear that there was a change which
could result in such an action. I read it to mean to check the
email address, which in my case, I knew was correct.

I do believe that asking a person to have his or status changed to
inactive requires a bit more personal approach than this.

The PR mentions that the script removed 18 core devs from the list
of active ones. It would certainly have been possible to contact
these directly and asking them if they are ok with that plan
of action:

https://github.com/python/voters/pull/10

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread Hynek Schlawack 
FWIW, since my name appears here: despite my lack of public contributions 
lately I do not consider myself inactive in any way since I’ve been continually 
working and cooperating with a lot of people in non-public ways. Whether it was 
the push for fixing ssl in 2014 or my help with designing data classes more 
recently. I did notice that my name was missing, but I read PEP 13 in a way 
that code = vote and didn’t want to raise a stink about it.

—h

> On 11. Dec 2019, at 10:27, Giampaolo Rodola'  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:52 AM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> Regardless of the logic, I also find it highly questionable that
> core devs who are no longer committing to the repo, but have put in
> quite a bit of time into the project get their voting rights removed.
> 
> Even when not actively maintaining code, they still do have a
> significant stake in the code base, own the copyright to their
> contributions and thus should have a say on the future of Python.
> 
> As it turns out I was removed from the list of voters by the above
> script, without being asked, and would like to be added back again.
> 
> Agreed. 
> https://github.com/python/voters/tree/master/voter-files
> Between 2019-01-21-2019-*.csv and 2019-12-01-2020-*.csv 30 core-devs were 
> removed, not sure if only from being able to vote or also from committing: 
> 
> Alex Martelli   
> Alexandre Vassalotti
> Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
> Armin Ronacher  
> Chris Jerdonek  
> David Malcolm   
> David Wolever   
> Doug Hellmann   
> Eli Bendersky   
> Facundo Batista 
> Georg Brandl
> Hyeshik Chang   
> Jack Diederich
> Jack Jansen
> Hynek Schlawack
> Jeff Hardy
> Jeremy Hylton
> Kurt B. Kaiser
> Lars Gustäbel
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> Mark Hammond
> Martin Panter
> Meador Inge
> Michael Hudson-Doyle
> Petri Lehtinen
> Philip Jenvey
> Sandro Tosi
> Sjoerd Mullender
> Thomas Heller
> Trent Nelson
> 
> Some of these look inactive indeed. Some I personally consider "emeritus" 
> core-devs, given the central role they played historically within Python 
> (Alex Martelli just to name one) and I don't see why they should be removed. 
> Many of these even appear to be active on bugs.python.org or on python-* MLs 
> today. Some are being listed in devguide/experts.rst as maintainers of stdlib 
> modules. So I really don't understand the logic being used here. At the very 
> least they deserved to be asked / notified privately before being removed.
> 
> -- 
> Giampaolo - http://grodola.blogspot.com
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-11 Thread Giampaolo Rodola' 
On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:52 AM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> Regardless of the logic, I also find it highly questionable that
> core devs who are no longer committing to the repo, but have put in
> quite a bit of time into the project get their voting rights removed.
>
> Even when not actively maintaining code, they still do have a
> significant stake in the code base, own the copyright to their
> contributions and thus should have a say on the future of Python.
>
> As it turns out I was removed from the list of voters by the above
> script, without being asked, and would like to be added back again.
>

Agreed.
https://github.com/python/voters/tree/master/voter-files
Between 2019-01-21-2019-*.csv and 2019-12-01-2020-*.csv 30 core-devs were
removed, not sure if only from being able to vote or also from committing:

Alex Martelli
Alexandre Vassalotti
Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
Armin Ronacher
Chris Jerdonek
David Malcolm
David Wolever
Doug Hellmann
Eli Bendersky
Facundo Batista
Georg Brandl
Hyeshik Chang
Jack Diederich
Jack Jansen
Hynek Schlawack
Jeff Hardy
Jeremy Hylton
Kurt B. Kaiser
Lars Gustäbel
Marc-Andre Lemburg
Mark Hammond
Martin Panter
Meador Inge
Michael Hudson-Doyle
Petri Lehtinen
Philip Jenvey
Sandro Tosi
Sjoerd Mullender
Thomas Heller
Trent Nelson

Some of these look inactive indeed. Some I personally consider "emeritus"
core-devs, given the central role they played historically within Python
(Alex Martelli just to name one) and I don't see why they should be
removed. Many of these even appear to be active on bugs.python.org or on
python-* MLs today. Some are being listed in devguide/experts.rst as
maintainers of stdlib modules. So I really don't understand the logic being
used here. At the very least they deserved to be asked / notified privately
before being removed.

-- 
Giampaolo - http://grodola.blogspot.com
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-10 Thread Brett Cannon 
We discussed the situation on the steering council and we are fine with making 
an exception for folks who felt caught off-guard asking Ernest to be added to 
the voter roll even though voting has already started.

In the new year I will work with Ernest to draft up a proposal for changing PEP 
13 to make this section of it clearer in regards to the expectations for 
qualifying to vote.
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ?

2019-12-10 Thread Ethan Furman 

On 12/10/2019 02:57 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 at 06:52, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:



The conversion to an inactive dev is something that core devs need
to be asked to agree to, and thus needs to be managed as a status
flag, not depend on commits to the repo.


All committers were asked to check the voter list in mid-November,
before the ballot period started:

[...]

So everyone *was* asked if they wanted to be kept as active for this
election


Being asked to check the rolls is not the same thing as being asked if one 
still wants to be considered active.  (I would suggest that this is definitely 
a time when explicit is better than implicit.)

And what if MAL had checked?  How would he have declared he still wanted to be 
active?

--
~Ethan~
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-10 Thread Antoine Pitrou 

Le 10/12/2019 à 23:57, Nick Coghlan a écrit :
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 at 06:52, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>> The conversion to an inactive dev is something that core devs need
>> to be asked to agree to, and thus needs to be managed as a status
>> flag, not depend on commits to the repo.
> 
> All committers were asked to check the voter list in mid-November,
> before the ballot period started:
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/thread/EXT5XHEHPGJQS3LW5UG7SK63C2GJDJ2P/
> 
> The relevant section in PEP 13 is this one:
> [snip]

Well, PEP 13 does not seem mentioned in the e-mail above.  The
relationship ("I have to check this list because I might have been
classified as an inactive core developer") didn't look obvious to me.

> So everyone *was* asked if they wanted to be kept as active for this
> election,

That's not what the e-mail above says, at least.  It just says "check
you're on the list", but does not detail the reasons why one would not
be in the list.  Perhaps you can find out the reason by digging through
hyperlinks, but that's not very intuitive ;-)

Regards

Antoine.
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-10 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 at 06:52, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
> The conversion to an inactive dev is something that core devs need
> to be asked to agree to, and thus needs to be managed as a status
> flag, not depend on commits to the repo.

All committers were asked to check the voter list in mid-November,
before the ballot period started:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/thread/EXT5XHEHPGJQS3LW5UG7SK63C2GJDJ2P/

The relevant section in PEP 13 is this one:

==
There's no time limit on core team membership. However, in order to
provide the general public with a reasonable idea of how many people
maintain Python, core team members who have stopped contributing are
encouraged to declare themselves as "inactive". Those who haven't made
any non-trivial contribution in two years may be asked to move
themselves to this category, and moved there if they don't respond. To
record and honor their contributions, inactive team members will
continue to be listed alongside active core team members; and, if they
later resume contributing, they can switch back to active status at
will. While someone is in inactive status, though, they lose their
active privileges like voting or nominating for the steering council,
and commit access.
==

So everyone *was* asked if they wanted to be kept as active for this
election, but it wasn't explicitly emphasised to the folks that were
otherwise going to being marked as inactive that this was happening
(as it had to be inferred from the absence of your name, rather than
being called out as a list of voters that had been flagged as
potentially inactive since the last voter roll was generated).

Cheers,
Nick.


-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-10 Thread Paul Moore 
On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 at 21:07, Senthil Kumaran  wrote:
>
> > As it turns out I was removed from the list of voters by the above
> > script, without being asked, and would like to be added back again.
>
> I support this, and I hope this can be rectified for this election period 
> itself.

+1 from me as well.

Paul
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[python-committers] Re: Possible bug in voting system ? (was: Re: Reminder to vote for the 2020 Steering Council)

2019-12-10 Thread Senthil Kumaran 
> As it turns out I was removed from the list of voters by the above
> script, without being asked, and would like to be added back again.


I support this, and I hope this can be rectified for this election
period itself.

Thank you,
Senthil


On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 12:52 PM M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> I had been waiting for the ballot email, but have not received any.
>
> I then checked the voters list and came across this section in the
> readme:
>
> """
> According to PEP 13, active membership is defined as "any non-trivial
> contribution in two years". As such, the coredev active command will
> create a pickle file containing the list of coredev.common.CoreDev
> instances of people who have authored or committed to the CPython repo
> in the past two years.
> """
>
> as well as
>
> """
> The coredev voters command will take an active membership pickle and
> generate a CSV file to act as a voter roll.
> """
>
> Looking at https://github.com/python/voters/blob/master/coredev/active.py
> it seems the implementation is not working with a status flag for
> each voter, but literally converts core members to inactive
> based on just the commit history.
>
> That's not in line with PEP 13 (even though this is quoted in the
> readme), which says:
>
> """
> Those who haven't made any non-trivial contribution in two years may be
> asked to move themselves to this category, and moved there if they don't
> respond.
> """
>
> The conversion to an inactive dev is something that core devs need
> to be asked to agree to, and thus needs to be managed as a status
> flag, not depend on commits to the repo.
>
> Regardless of the logic, I also find it highly questionable that
> core devs who are no longer committing to the repo, but have put in
> quite a bit of time into the project get their voting rights removed.
>
> Even when not actively maintaining code, they still do have a
> significant stake in the code base, own the copyright to their
> contributions and thus should have a say on the future of Python.
>
> As it turns out I was removed from the list of voters by the above
> script, without being asked, and would like to be added back again.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2019)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
>
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>
>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>
>
>
> On 10.12.2019 20:52, Ewa Jodlowska wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > *This is a reminder that voting will end December 16, 2019 12:00 UTC.*
> >
> > If you have not yet voted, please do so soon. Momentarily, Ernest will
> > resend all the ballots to those that have not voted yet. If you cannot
> > find your ballot, try searching spam for sys...@heliosvoting.org
> > .
> >
> > If you run into any issues, please email myself (e...@python.org
> > ) and Ernest (ern...@python.org
> > ).
> >
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Ewa
> >
> >
> >
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