Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7 / buildbots / testing

2009-09-23 Thread C. Titus Brown
On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 12:23:31AM -0400, David Lyon wrote: > On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:13:55 -, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: > > > I would also personally recommend that this person first (well, after > > tracking down all the slave operators and convincing them to bring their > > slaves b

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7 / buildbots / testing

2009-09-23 Thread David Lyon
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:13:55 -, exar...@twistedmatrix.com wrote: > Quite a few years of experience with a distributed team of build slave > managers has shown me that by far the most reliable way to keep slaves > online is to have them managed by a dedicated team. This team doesn't > need t

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread P.J. Eby
At 07:05 PM 9/23/2009 -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 6:57 PM, P.J. Eby wrote: > Once again, I'd like for the badgering to stop. Thanks. Tarek already agreed to that ("Fine with me. Let's move forward"). I hope you will stop badgering him too. The only reason I said "o

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Nick Coghlan
Antoine Pitrou wrote: > As far as I'm concerned, anything which looks intuitive enough (e.g. > ini-style) > and not overly complicated is fine. The details of the syntax aren't really > important as long as they make sense, and don't get in the way. One small comment before all this goes back to

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Nick Coghlan
Antoine Pitrou wrote: > As far as I'm concerned, anything which looks intuitive enough (e.g. > ini-style) > and not overly complicated is fine. The details of the syntax aren't really > important as long as they make sense, and don't get in the way. One small comment before all this goes back to

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Nick Coghlan
Mark Dickinson wrote: > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Dino Viehland wrote: >> We are going to start contributing tests back real soon now. I'm not sure >> that these are the best tests to contribute as they require a version of >> Python to compare against rather than being nice and stand alon

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 6:57 PM, P.J. Eby wrote: > Once again, I'd like for the badgering to stop.  Thanks. Tarek already agreed to that ("Fine with me. Let's move forward"). I hope you will stop badgering him too. -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Nick Coghlan
Brett Cannon wrote: > So +0 on your specific improvment and +1 for trying to think about > newbies when writing exception messages. The __eq__/__hash__ messages are somewhat arcane because the problem they're describing is somewhat arcane. Michael's suggested improvement also isn't quite right (a

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Greg Ewing wrote: > Nick Coghlan wrote: > >> The interpreter doesn't promise to call those slots with "self" first - >> self will be the second argument in the "rop" case. > > I know. My question is: How does it know whether a subclass > "has overridden __rop__" wh

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread P.J. Eby
At 12:40 AM 9/24/2009 +0200, Tarek Ziadé wrote: Come on phillip, no one is "plotting" against you. Perhaps this is a language issue. When I said, "if Tarek is too busy projecting hidden plots onto everything I say and do," I meant that you were acting as if I were plotting against *you*, not

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Nick Coghlan
Eric Smith wrote: >> From Trent on the snakebite mailing list. Too late for me to look it >> up though; an exercise I leave to the reader. > > http://groups.google.com/group/snakebite-list/browse_thread/thread/d08642261f2cc502 Hmm, I thought I was subscribed to the snakebite list... guess I will

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Greg Ewing
Ben Finney wrote: It's a single operation as far as the parser is concerned, so there needs to be a single term for it. That term is “subscript”. How about something like "does not support the [] operation". This refers directly to the syntax involved, rather than using a typographical term t

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Greg Ewing
Nick Coghlan wrote: The interpreter doesn't promise to call those slots with "self" first - self will be the second argument in the "rop" case. I know. My question is: How does it know whether a subclass "has overridden __rop__" when there is no concept of an __rop__ method distinct from the _

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Greg Ewing
Chris Withers wrote: But this isn't coercion! :-) The raisin is probably hysterical. Once upon a time, Python had a __coerce__ special method that took care of things like this in a different (and inferior) way. It gradually got replaced by the current scheme, but nobody changed the section he

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > MRAB mrabarnett.plus.com> writes: >> >> It's called a 'subscript' because conventional mathematical notation >> uses subscripting. Newbies might be acquainted with the term 'index' >> from books, where the 'value' is non-numeric. It's a bit

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Antoine Pitrou
MRAB mrabarnett.plus.com> writes: > > It's called a 'subscript' because conventional mathematical notation > uses subscripting. Newbies might be acquainted with the term 'index' > from books, where the 'value' is non-numeric. It's a bit unfortunate > that dicts have keys+value instead of index+va

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread MRAB
Ben Finney wrote: Steven D'Aprano writes: As far as I can see, in practice, people talk about obj[i] as the item at index i, not the item at subscript i -- the term "subscript" in this context seems to be rare to non-existent except for the error message. Presumably, the same people would al

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread MRAB
Janzert wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:47:41 am Dino Viehland wrote: So I am +1 on unified the message and +1 on using the "does not support indexing" one. I'd be +1 on the unified message as well - but it seems what that message should be may be contentious (and quite a

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Eric Smith
Michael Foord wrote: Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/9/23 Michael Foord : Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/9/23 Michael Foord : Isn't that the real compatibility test *anyway* - how successful a new version of Python is at running all the existing Python code... Yes, but we

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Ben Finney
Steven D'Aprano writes: > As far as I can see, in practice, people talk about obj[i] as the item > at index i, not the item at subscript i -- the term "subscript" in > this context seems to be rare to non-existent except for the error > message. Presumably, the same people would also call ‘obj[i

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread David Lyon
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:49:16 +0200, "M.-A. Lemburg" wrote: > While it's a good idea to put up some form of meta-data > into an index, I wonder why you are using setup.cfg > for this. > > setup.cfg has traditionally been used to configure distutils, > not to define meta-data. As such you wouldn't

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Janzert
Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:47:41 am Dino Viehland wrote: >>> So I am +1 on unified the message and +1 on using the "does not >>> support indexing" one. >> I'd be +1 on the unified message as well - but it seems what that >> message should be may be contentious (and quite a bike

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:47:41 am Dino Viehland wrote: > > So I am +1 on unified the message and +1 on using the "does not > > support indexing" one. > > I'd be +1 on the unified message as well - but it seems what that > message should be may be contentious (and quite a bike shed > discussion at tha

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/9/23 Michael Foord : Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/9/23 Michael Foord : Isn't that the real compatibility test *anyway* - how successful a new version of Python is at running all the existing Python code... Yes, but we should have expect

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2009/9/23 Michael Foord : > Benjamin Peterson wrote: >> >> 2009/9/23 Michael Foord : >> >>> >>> Isn't that the real compatibility test *anyway* - how successful a new >>> version of Python is at running all the existing Python code... >>> >> >> Yes, but we should have expect 3rd party code to be de

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/9/23 Michael Foord : Isn't that the real compatibility test *anyway* - how successful a new version of Python is at running all the existing Python code... Yes, but we should have expect 3rd party code to be detecting bugs for us that our test suite could

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2009/9/23 Michael Foord : > Isn't that the real compatibility test *anyway* - how successful a new > version of Python is at running all the existing Python code... Yes, but we should have expect 3rd party code to be detecting bugs for us that our test suite could have shown on a platform. -- R

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Raymond Hettinger wrote: [Michael Foord] Are we definitely decided that 2.7 will be the last major release in the 2.x cycle? ISTM, that would depend on the uptake for 3.2. The users get a say in the matter. That would be my feeling... Michael Raymond -- http://www.ironpythoninaction

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Raymond Hettinger
[Michael Foord] Are we definitely decided that 2.7 will be the last major release in the 2.x cycle? ISTM, that would depend on the uptake for 3.2. The users get a say in the matter. Raymond ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://m

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Tarek Ziadé
Fine with me. Let's move forward. On Sep 23, 2009 11:27 PM, "Antoine Pitrou" wrote: P.J. Eby telecommunity.com> writes: > > Hell, I *support* the bulk of Tarek's setup.cfg p... Ok, so Tarek and Philip, are you both ok that those little disagreements should belong to the past now? :) Philip did

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Tarek Ziadé
(Sorry if it's top posting I am on a mobile) Come on phillip, no one is "plotting" against you. You didn't maintain setuptools for a year while people where begging you to do bug fixes. You blessed Ian and Jim to take over but they are too busy to do it . I even sent them a mail on my side to try

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Brett Cannon
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 14:49, Michael Foord wrote: > Brett Cannon wrote: >> >> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 14:19, Michael Foord >> wrote: >> [SNIP] >> >>> >>> Also +1. I had a friend (an experienced programmer) who started using >>> Python >>> recently. The cryptic nature of some of the error messag

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/9/23 Brett Cannon : On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 13:34, Benjamin Peterson wrote: As for burn out, I expected 2.7.x, as the last 2.x release, to be different in that several people would do the maintenance releases (perhaps on a 6 month schedule or so) for the 5

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Brett Cannon
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 14:19, Michael Foord wrote: > Benjamin Peterson wrote: >> >> 2009/9/23 Brett Cannon : >> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 07:35, Benjamin Peterson >>> wrote: >>> Hi everyone, I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final release m

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Brett Cannon wrote: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 14:19, Michael Foord wrote: [SNIP] Also +1. I had a friend (an experienced programmer) who started using Python recently. The cryptic nature of some of the error messages was a sore point with him. Do you know which error messages? We can ch

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2009/9/23 Brett Cannon : > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 13:34, Benjamin Peterson wrote: >> As for burn out, I expected 2.7.x, as the last 2.x release, to be >> different in that several people would do the maintenance releases >> (perhaps on a 6 month schedule or so) for the 5 year period, so that >> w

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Brett Cannon
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 13:47, Dino Viehland wrote: > Brett wrote: >> Let's ignore history, which I bet is the reason for the distinction, >> and just look at the error messages; does the distinction make sense >> to a newbie? I would say no and that the "does not support indexing" >> error messag

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Michael Foord voidspace.org.uk> writes: > > Are we definitely decided that 2.7 will be the last major release in the > 2.x cycle? I don't think any "definitive" decision was made, but judgeing by Benjamin's and Brett's answers (and by my own sentiment :-)), it certainly is the expectation of so

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Brett Cannon
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 13:34, Benjamin Peterson wrote: > 2009/9/23 Brett Cannon : >> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 07:35, Benjamin Peterson wrote: >>> Hi everyone, >>> I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final >>> release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at t

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Brett Cannon
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 14:19, Michael Foord wrote: [SNIP] > Also +1. I had a friend (an experienced programmer) who started using Python > recently. The cryptic nature of some of the error messages was a sore point > with him. Do you know which error messages? We can change them. We have always

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2009/9/23 Michael Foord : > Benjamin Peterson wrote: >> As for burn out, I expected 2.7.x, as the last 2.x release, > > Are we definitely decided that 2.7 will be the last major release in the 2.x > cycle? No, but that's what we're planning for atm. -- Regards, Benjamin

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Benjamin Peterson python.org> writes: > > Different RMs would have different times they can do releases, > so I would worry about there being a release in a slightly different > stage of a different branch every couple weeks. Assuming you can do it, +1 for you (Benjamin) being RM for both 2.7 an

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Antoine Pitrou
P.J. Eby telecommunity.com> writes: > > Hell, I *support* the bulk of Tarek's setup.cfg proposal, and don't > even object to him Pronouncing it or cutting off the discussion! My > only issue on Python-Dev was his inaccurate implication that it was a > SIG consensus rather than a pronouncement

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/9/23 Brett Cannon : On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 07:35, Benjamin Peterson wrote: Hi everyone, I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at the same time as 2.7, within a few wee

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
M.-A. Lemburg wrote: Brett Cannon wrote: On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 20:08, R. David Murray wrote: On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 at 02:01, MRAB wrote: Dino Viehland wrote: Is there a reason or a rule by which CPython reports different error message for different failures to subsc

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
Brett Cannon wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 20:08, R. David Murray wrote: >> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 at 02:01, MRAB wrote: >>> >>> Dino Viehland wrote: Is there a reason or a rule by which CPython reports different error message for different failures to subscript? For ex

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Dino Viehland
Brett wrote: > Let's ignore history, which I bet is the reason for the distinction, > and just look at the error messages; does the distinction make sense > to a newbie? I would say no and that the "does not support indexing" > error message is more useful. For expert programmers they could figure

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread P.J. Eby
At 07:00 PM 9/23/2009 +0200, Tarek Ziadé wrote: While it's great to have Philipp being part of our distutils design discussions, for his experience, I am not concerned of not having him in this "internal consensus" since Setuptools is not maintained anymore. He said some months ago, he would wor

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2009/9/23 Brett Cannon : > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 07:35, Benjamin Peterson wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final >> release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at the same >> time as 2.7, within a few weeks to avoid 2.x having

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Guido van Rossum
All, I don't have the bandwidth right now to help out much in this thread, so I'm glad that the collective effort has mostly figured out what the rules are (as well as what they should be :-). It truly is a mess, mostly thanks to the various concerns for backwards compatibility (classic vs. new cl

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Benjamin Peterson
2009/9/23 Antoine Pitrou : > Benjamin Peterson python.org> writes: >> >> Hi everyone, >> I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final >> release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at the same >> time as 2.7, within a few weeks to avoid 2.x having features whic

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Sridhar Ratnakumar
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:11:18 -0700, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Michael Foord wrote: Note that Activestate also have a fledgling package management system for Python (unreleased yet I *believe*) so it is probably worth reaching out to them as well. Yes I didn't

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread P.J. Eby
At 02:20 PM 9/23/2009 +0200, Tarek Ziadé wrote: If you take the time to read everything you'll see that there were no real alternative design proposed, You did not respond to repeated requests (from more than one person), for clarification regarding the requirements that your proposal was try

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread exarkun
On 06:03 pm, br...@python.org wrote: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 07:35, Benjamin Peterson wrote: [snip] Additionally, I'm very apprehensive about doing any kind of release without the buildbots running. Does anyone know when they might be up? I don't know the answer, but it might be "never". We

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Brett Cannon
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 07:35, Benjamin Peterson wrote: > Hi everyone, > I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final > release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at the same > time as 2.7, within a few weeks to avoid 2.x having features which 3.x > doesn't. I

Re: [Python-Dev] altruism

2009-09-23 Thread Brett Cannon
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 04:36, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Brett Cannon python.org> writes: >> >> Trust me, if you are doing open source for >> anything other than altruistic reasons you are bound to be >> disappointed. > > I'm surprised by this statement but perhaps it's a matter of vocabulary. > Ha

Re: [Python-Dev] unsubscriptable vs object does not support indexing

2009-09-23 Thread Brett Cannon
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 20:08, R. David Murray wrote: > On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 at 02:01, MRAB wrote: >> >> Dino Viehland wrote: >>> >>>  Is there a reason or a rule by which CPython reports different error >>>  message for different failures to subscript? >>> >>>  For example: >>> >>> > > >  set()[2]

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Toshio Kuratomi
On 09/23/2009 10:00 AM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: > But you are right about the need of making sure every package management > project is involved. We should make sure that Enthought, > which has its own package management system, is part of that consensus. > > Also, I am more concerned of not having en

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Tarek Ziadé gmail.com> writes: > > Also, I am more concerned of not having enough end users involved in > that process. > End users would be: any python developer that needs > to package his code, or any os packager that needs to package a python > distribution > for his system. But those are har

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Michael Foord wrote: > Note that Activestate also have a fledgling package management system for > Python (unreleased yet I *believe*) so it is probably worth reaching out to > them as well. Yes I didn't mention it because the project is private afaik. I'll ask th

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Tarek Ziadé wrote: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I did offer a concrete criterion for an individual's participation in a "internal consensus": that you expect that they will adopt the new features of distutils as a foundation for their own distribution systems,

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > I did offer a concrete criterion for an individual's participation in > a "internal consensus": that you expect that they will adopt the new > features of distutils as a foundation for their own distribution > systems, or at least not i

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Dino Viehland wrote: Mark wrote: On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Dino Viehland wrote: We are going to start contributing tests back real soon now. I'm not sure that these are the best tests to contribute as they require a version of Python to compare against rather than being nice an

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Dino Viehland
Mark wrote: > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Dino Viehland wrote: > > We are going to start contributing tests back real soon now.  I'm not sure > > that these are the best tests to contribute as they require a version of > > Python to compare against rather than being nice and stand alone.  But

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Mark Dickinson
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Dino Viehland wrote: > We are going to start contributing tests back real soon now.  I'm not sure > that these are the best tests to contribute as they require a version of > Python to compare against rather than being nice and stand alone.  But I'm > sure we have

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Benjamin Peterson python.org> writes: > > Hi everyone, > I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final > release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at the same > time as 2.7, within a few weeks to avoid 2.x having features which 3.x > doesn't. If no one has pr

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Dino Viehland
Skip wrote: > Dino> For IronPython we wrote a set of tests which go through and define > Dino> the various operator methods in all sorts of combinations on both > Dino> new-style and old-style classes as well as subclasses of those > Dino> classes and then do the comparisons w/ logg

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Michael Foord
Benjamin Peterson wrote: Hi everyone, I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at the same time as 2.7, within a few weeks to avoid 2.x having features which 3.x doesn't. If no one has problems with this, I will

Re: [Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread exarkun
On 02:35 pm, benja...@python.org wrote: Hi everyone, I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at the same time as 2.7, within a few weeks to avoid 2.x having features which 3.x doesn't. If no one has problems wit

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread skip
Eric> IIRC, one of the reasons for "breaking out"[1] the standard library (and Eric> its test suite) was to allow for things like this. In my opinion the standard library and the core test suite (the language validation stuff) are entirely independent beasts. I can understand pieces of

[Python-Dev] thinking about 2.7

2009-09-23 Thread Benjamin Peterson
Hi everyone, I've started plotting the release of 2.7. I'd like to try for a final release mid next summer. 3.2 should be released, if not at the same time as 2.7, within a few weeks to avoid 2.x having features which 3.x doesn't. If no one has problems with this, I will draft a schedule. Are we s

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Tarek Ziadé writes: > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull > wrote: > > At the very least, that would have kept this discussion on Distutils- > > SIG, and Chris couldn't be accused of trying to make an end run around > > that process.  I suggest that posting progress reports

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Eric Smith
s...@pobox.com wrote: Dino> For IronPython we wrote a set of tests which go through and define Dino> the various operator methods in all sorts of combinations on both Dino> new-style and old-style classes as well as subclasses of those Dino> classes and then do the comparisons w/

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Frank Wierzbicki
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Dino Viehland wrote: > And the latest version there is in: > > IronPython_Main\Src\Tests\compat > > Hopefully the infrastructure will just work on Jython because it also runs on > CPython but there may be some Windows specific code in there (e.g. import nt, > a gen

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Frank Wierzbicki
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 11:43 PM, wrote: > >    Dino> For IronPython we wrote a set of tests which go through and define >    Dino> the various operator methods in all sorts of combinations on both >    Dino> new-style and old-style classes as well as subclasses of those >    Dino> classes and th

Re: [Python-Dev] altruism

2009-09-23 Thread Nick Coghlan
Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Brett Cannon python.org> writes: >> Trust me, if you are doing open source for >> anything other than altruistic reasons you are bound to be >> disappointed. > > I'm surprised by this statement but perhaps it's a matter of vocabulary. > Having fun and doing things you like

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > At the very least, that would have kept this discussion on Distutils- > SIG, and Chris couldn't be accused of trying to make an end run around > that process.  I suggest that posting progress reports to Python-Dev > is a good idea (attr

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Nick Coghlan
Greg Ewing wrote: > Willem Broekema wrote: > >> The AND above (which I uppercased) is subtle but important. In the "x >> op y" case with y being of a subclass of the class of x, if there is >> no class in between x and y (excluding x, including y) that overrides >> the __rop__ method, then y,__rop

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Nick Coghlan
Mark Dickinson wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Chris Withers > wrote: >> Where are the specifications on what happens if two objects are >> compared and both have implementations of __eq__? Which __eq__ is >> called? What happens if the first one called returns False? Is the >> second on

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Tarek Ziadé
2009/9/23 Chris Withers : >> Since the language summit at PyCon 2009 various committers, including >> me, have been encouraging Tarek to act as distutils dictator to get >> things finished as we all know people are prone to bikeshedding that >> would kill any forward momentum we have towards improv

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:53 AM, Sridhar Ratnakumar wrote: > On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:48:08 -0700, Chris Withers > wrote: > >> >> Since the language summit at PyCon 2009 various committers, including >> me, have been encouraging Tarek to act as distutils dictator to get >> things finished as we al

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Georg Brandl
Chris Withers schrieb: > Jared Flatow wrote: >> This might help: >> >> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2008-June/080111.html >> >> Here is the most relevant part (quoting Guido): >> >> > Does it help if I tell you that for "x y" we always try >> > x.__binop__(y) before trying y.__

Re: [Python-Dev] altruism

2009-09-23 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Brett Cannon python.org> writes: > > Trust me, if you are doing open source for > anything other than altruistic reasons you are bound to be > disappointed. I'm surprised by this statement but perhaps it's a matter of vocabulary. Having fun and doing things you like to do does not strike me as "

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Mark Dickinson
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 4:43 AM, wrote: > >    Dino> For IronPython we wrote a set of tests which go through and define >    Dino> the various operator methods in all sorts of combinations on both >    Dino> new-style and old-style classes as well as subclasses of those >    Dino> classes and the

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Mark Dickinson
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Chris Withers wrote: > Mark Dickinson wrote: >> >> I (still :-) think this is covered, for Python 2.x at least, by: >> >> http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#coercion-rules > > But this isn't coercion! :-) Agreed. FWIW this behaviour for arithmetic op

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread skip
Dino> For IronPython we wrote a set of tests which go through and define Dino> the various operator methods in all sorts of combinations on both Dino> new-style and old-style classes as well as subclasses of those Dino> classes and then do the comparisons w/ logging. It would be v

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread Floris Bruynooghe
On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 09:49:16AM +0200, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > While it's a good idea to put up some form of meta-data > into an index, I wonder why you are using setup.cfg > for this. > > setup.cfg has traditionally been used to configure distutils, > not to define meta-data. As such you wouldn

Re: [Python-Dev] operator precedence of __eq__, __ne__, etc, if both object have implementations

2009-09-23 Thread Chris Withers
Mark Dickinson wrote: I (still :-) think this is covered, for Python 2.x at least, by: http://docs.python.org/reference/datamodel.html#coercion-rules But this isn't coercion! :-) - For objects x and y, first x.__op__(y) is tried. If this is not implemented or returns NotImplemented, y.__rop_

Re: [Python-Dev] Distutils ML wrap-up: setup.cfg new format

2009-09-23 Thread M.-A. Lemburg
Tarek Ziadé wrote: > Hello > > Here's a wrapup of the Distutils-SIG discussion > we had on the "static metadata" topic. > > I realize that it's a good thing to send in. > python-dev such wrapup on distutils design > decisions, to keep everyone informed and get > more feedback when required. > >