Re: [Python-Dev] Daily reference leaks (12de1ad1cee8): sum=6024

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Well, they should be fixed now :-) > > Regards > > Antoine. awesome! :) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http:/

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Steven D'Aprano writes: > Pardon me, but people like Stephen Turnbull are *users* of Python, exactly > the > sort of people you DO have to convince that moving to an accelerated or more > complex release process will result in a better product. Well, to be fair, Antoine is right in excludi

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Georg Brandl writes: > "The status quo really isn't all that bad" applies to any PEP. Also, > compared to most PEPs, it is quite easy to revert to the previous > state of things if they don't work out as wanted. That depends on how "doesn't work out" plays out. If meeting the schedule *and*

Re: [Python-Dev] Writable __doc__

Noufal Ibrahim writes: [...] > That is why you're seeing this. What's the question here? [...] My apologies. I didn't read the whole thread. -- ~noufal http://nibrahim.net.in Some bird populations soaring down -Headline of an article in Science News, page 126, February 20, 1993. _

Re: [Python-Dev] Writable __doc__

Sreenivas Reddy T writes: > this is happening on python 2.6 too. > > Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 16 2010, 13:57:41) > [GCC 4.4.3] on linux2 > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. class Test(type): > ... __doc__= > File "", line 2 > __doc__= >

Re: [Python-Dev] Writable __doc__

this is happening on python 2.6 too. Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 16 2010, 13:57:41) [GCC 4.4.3] on linux2 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> class Test(type): ... __doc__= File "", line 2 __doc__= ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax >>> cl

Re: [Python-Dev] Writable __doc__

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Ethan Furman wrote: > Is there a reason why normal classes can't have their __doc__ strings > rewritten?  Creating a do-nothing metaclass seems like overkill for such a > simple operation. > > Python 3.2 ... on win32 > --> class Test(): > ...   __doc__ = 'am I perm

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

On 1/18/2012 8:06 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Do we have any evidence of this alleged bitrot? I spend a lot of time on the comp.lang.python newsgroup and I see no evidence that people using Python believe the standard library is rotting from

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Brett Cannon wrote: > Do we have any evidence of this alleged bitrot? I spend a lot of time on the > comp.lang.python newsgroup and I see no evidence that people using Python > believe the standard library is rotting from lack of attention

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 7:31 AM, fwierzbi...@gmail.com wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Brett Cannon wrote: > >> Doing a release every 6 months that includes updates to the stdlib and >> bugfixes to the language/VM also benefits other VMs by getting compatibility >> fixes in faster. All

Re: [Python-Dev] Coroutines and PEP 380

PEP380 and Mark's coroutines could coexist, so I really don't "it's too late" matters. Furthermore, PEP380 has utility in its own right without considering its use for "explicit coroutines". I would like to see these coroutines considered, but as someone else mentioned, coroutines via PEP380 enhan

Re: [Python-Dev] Writable __doc__

2012/1/18 Ethan Furman : > Is there a reason why normal classes can't have their __doc__ strings > rewritten?  Creating a do-nothing metaclass seems like overkill for such a > simple operation. > > Python 3.2 ... on win32 > --> class Test(): > ...   __doc__ = 'am I permanent?' > ... > --> Test.__do

[Python-Dev] Writable __doc__

Is there a reason why normal classes can't have their __doc__ strings rewritten? Creating a do-nothing metaclass seems like overkill for such a simple operation. Python 3.2 ... on win32 --> class Test(): ... __doc__ = 'am I permanent?' ... --> Test.__doc__ 'am I permanent?' --> Test.__doc__

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: > The main reason is changes in the library.  We have been getting complaints > about the standard library bitrotting for years now, and one of the main > reasons it's so hard to a) get decent code into the stdlib and b) keep it > maintained is

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

Brett Cannon wrote: And honestly, if we don't go with this I'm with Georg's comment in another email of beginning to consider stripping the stdlib down to core libraries to help stop with the bitrot (sorry, Paul). If we can't attract new replacements for modules we can't ditch because of backwar

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le jeudi 19 janvier 2012 à 00:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit : > You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough > alphas? That sounds completely unrelated. Surely testing is related to user perceptions of stability. More testing helps reduce bu

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Brett Cannon wrote: > Doing a release every 6 months that includes updates to the stdlib and > bugfixes to the language/VM also benefits other VMs by getting compatibility > fixes in faster. All of the other VM maintainers have told me that keeping > the stdlib no

Re: [Python-Dev] Daily reference leaks (12de1ad1cee8): sum=6024

Well, they should be fixed now :-) Regards Antoine. On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:42:15 +0100 Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:39:42 -0500 > Brett Cannon wrote: > > > > > > > We could then maybe try to get some > > > > people pound on this at the PyCon sprints. Otherwise I'm reluctant

Re: [Python-Dev] Hashing proposal: change only string-only dicts

On 1/18/2012 9:52 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: I've been seriously considering implementing a balanced tree inside the dict (again for string-only dicts, as ordering can't be guaranteed otherwise). However, this would be a lot of code for a security fix. It*would* solve the issue for good, thoug

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

Am 18.01.2012 18:56, schrieb Brett Cannon: > IOW we would have a language moratorium every 2 years (i.e. between LTS > releases) while switching to a 6 month release cycle for language/VM bugfixes > and full stdlib releases? That is certainly a possibility (it's listed as an open issue in the PEP

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Am 18.01.2012 16:25, schrieb Stephen J. Turnbull: > Antoine Pitrou writes: > > > You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough > > alphas? That sounds completely unrelated. > > Surely testing is related to user perceptions of stability. More > testing helps reduce bugs in r

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Hello Dirkjan, On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:32:22 +0100 Dirkjan Ochtman wrote: > On Tuesday, January 17, 2012, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > We would like to propose the following PEP to change (C)Python's release > > cycle. Discussion is welcome, especially from people involved in the > > release proces

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 09:08, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:30 PM, Antoine Pitrou > wrote: > > Splitting the stdlib: > > - requires someone to do the splitting (highly non-trivial given the > > interactions of some modules with interpreter details or low-level C > > code) > >

Re: [Python-Dev] Hashing proposal: change only string-only dicts

Am 18.01.2012 13:30, schrieb Barry Warsaw: > On Jan 18, 2012, at 08:19 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote: > >> My concern is not about breaking doctests: this proposal will also break >> them. My concern is about applications that assume that hash(s) is >> stable across runs, and we do have reports that i

Re: [Python-Dev] Hashing proposal: change only string-only dicts

Am 18.01.2012 17:01, schrieb PJ Eby: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:58 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" > wrote: > > Am 17.01.2012 22:26, schrieb Antoine Pitrou: > > Only 2 bits are used in ob_sstate, meaning 30 are left. These 30 bits > > could cache a "hash perturbation

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

On Tuesday, January 17, 2012, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > We would like to propose the following PEP to change (C)Python's release > cycle. Discussion is welcome, especially from people involved in the > release process, and maintainers from third-party distributions of > Python. As a Gentoo packager

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

Nick Coghlan writes: > >From the stdlib feature development branch (these are the new interim > releases with standard library updates only as proposed by PEP 407): > Python 3.3.1 + stdlib 13.02.0 (~February 2013) > Python 3.3.2 + stdlib 13.08.0 (~August 2013) > Python 3.3.3 + stdlib 14.02.

Re: [Python-Dev] Daily reference leaks (12de1ad1cee8): sum=6024

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:39:42 -0500 Brett Cannon wrote: > > > > > We could then maybe try to get some > > > people pound on this at the PyCon sprints. Otherwise I'm reluctant to > > skip > > > it since they are legitimate leaks that should be get fixed. > > > > Well it's the old well-known issue wi

Re: [Python-Dev] Daily reference leaks (12de1ad1cee8): sum=6024

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 11:27, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:14:50 -0500 > Brett Cannon wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:56, Antoine Pitrou > wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:06:07 +1000 > > > Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:31 PM, wrote:

Re: [Python-Dev] Daily reference leaks (12de1ad1cee8): sum=6024

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:14:50 -0500 Brett Cannon wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:56, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:06:07 +1000 > > Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:31 PM, wrote: > > > > results for 12de1ad1cee8 on branch "default" > > > > --

Re: [Python-Dev] Daily reference leaks (12de1ad1cee8): sum=6024

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:56, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:06:07 +1000 > Nick Coghlan wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:31 PM, wrote: > > > results for 12de1ad1cee8 on branch "default" > > > > > > > > > test_capi leaked [2008,

Re: [Python-Dev] Hashing proposal: change only string-only dicts

On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:58 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > Am 17.01.2012 22:26, schrieb Antoine Pitrou: > > Only 2 bits are used in ob_sstate, meaning 30 are left. These 30 bits > > could cache a "hash perturbation" computed from the string and the > > random bits: > > > > - hash() would use ob_s

Re: [Python-Dev] Daily reference leaks (12de1ad1cee8): sum=6024

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:06:07 +1000 Nick Coghlan wrote: > On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:31 PM, wrote: > > results for 12de1ad1cee8 on branch "default" > > > > > > test_capi leaked [2008, 2008, 2008] references, sum=6024 > > Yikes, you weren't kidding abou

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 09:26:19PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > My original suggestion to Antoine and Georg for 3.4 was that we simply > propose to Larry Hastings (the 3.4 RM) that we spread out the release > cycle, releasing the first alpha after ~6 months, the second after > about ~12, then rolli

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Le jeudi 19 janvier 2012 à 00:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit : > > > You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough > > alphas? That sounds completely unrelated. > > Surely testing is related to user perceptions of stability. More > testing helps reduce bugs in relea

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Antoine Pitrou writes: > You claim people won't use stable releases because of not enough > alphas? That sounds completely unrelated. Surely testing is related to user perceptions of stability. More testing helps reduce bugs in released software, which improves user perception of stability, e

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] Daily reference leaks (12de1ad1cee8): sum=6024

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:31 PM, wrote: > results for 12de1ad1cee8 on branch "default" > > > test_capi leaked [2008, 2008, 2008] references, sum=6024 Yikes, you weren't kidding about that new subinterpreter code execution test upsetting the refleak de

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:30 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Splitting the stdlib: > - requires someone to do the splitting (highly non-trivial given the > interactions of some modules with interpreter details or low-level C > code) > - requires setting up separate resources (continuous integration w

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Le mercredi 18 janvier 2012 à 21:48 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit : > My claim is that I don't expect much uptake if you > don't do close to as many of what are called "alpha" and "beta" tests > on python-dev as are currently done. You claim people won't use stable releases because of not en

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

Antoine Pitrou writes: > > Since testing is the bottleneck on what users consider to be > > "available for me", you cannot decrease the amount of testing (alpha, > > beta releases) by anywhere near the amount you're increasing > > frequency, or you're just producing "as is" snapshots. > > T

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407 / splitting the stdlib

Le mercredi 18 janvier 2012 à 21:26 +1000, Nick Coghlan a écrit : > I'm also wholly in agreement with Ezio that using the > same versioning scheme for both full releases and interim releases is > thoroughly confusing for users It's a straight-forward way to track the feature support of a release

Re: [Python-Dev] Hashing proposal: change only string-only dicts

On Jan 18, 2012, at 08:19 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote: >My concern is not about breaking doctests: this proposal will also break >them. My concern is about applications that assume that hash(s) is >stable across runs, and we do have reports that it will break >applications. I am a proponent of doct

Re: [Python-Dev] Coroutines and PEP 380

On Jan 18, 2012, at 4:23 AM, Mark Shannon wrote: > Glyph wrote: >> On Jan 17, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Mark Shannon wrote: >>> Lets start controversially: I don't like PEP 380, I think it's a kludge. >> Too late; it's already accepted. There's not much point in making >> controversial statements about

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

This won't be a surprise to Antoine or Georg (since I've already expressed the same opinion privately), but I'm -1 on the idea of official releases of the whole shebang every 6 months. We're not Ubuntu, Fedora, Chrome or Firefox with a for-profit company (or large foundation) with multiple paid emp

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 11:37:08 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: > > availability of release management volunteers, > > Dramatic increase here. It may look like RM is not so demanding -- > run a few scripts to put out the alphas/betas/releases. But the RM > needs to stay on top of breaking news

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 407: New release cycle and introducing long-term support versions

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:52:20 + Paul Moore wrote: > On 18 January 2012 07:46, Georg Brandl wrote: > >> But I am dubious that releases that are obsolete in 6 months and lack > >> 3rd party support will see much production use. > > > > Whether people would use the releases is probably something

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of the fix for the hash collision vulnerability

On 01/17/2012 09:29 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: I(0) = H& MASK PERTURB(0) = H I(n+1) = (5*I(n) + 1 + PERTURB(n))& MASK PERTURN(n+1) = PERTURB(n)>> 5 So if two objects O1 and O2 have the same hash value H, the sequence of probed indices is the same for any MASK value. It will

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of the fix for the hash collision vulnerability

2012/1/18 "Martin v. Löwis" : > For 3.3 onwards, I'm skeptical whether all this configuration support is > really necessary. I think a much smaller patch which leaves no choice > would be more appropriate. The configuration helps unit testing: see changes on Lib/test/*.py in my last patch. I hesit

Re: [Python-Dev] Coroutines and PEP 380

Glyph wrote: On Jan 17, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Mark Shannon wrote: Lets start controversially: I don't like PEP 380, I think it's a kludge. Too late; it's already accepted. There's not much point in making controversial statements about it now. Why is it too late? Presenting this as a fait acc

Re: [Python-Dev] Coroutines and PEP 380

Matt Joiner wrote: Just to clarify, this differs in functionality from enhanced generators by allowing you to yield from an arbitrary call depth rather than having to "yield from" through a chain of calling generators? Furthermore there's no syntactical change except to the bottommost frame doi