On 11 January 2014 08:58, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
On 01/10/2014 02:42 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:33:57 -0500
Eric V. Smith e...@trueblade.com wrote:
On 1/10/2014 5:29 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:56:19 -0500
Eric V. Smith
On 11 January 2014 12:28, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
On 01/10/2014 06:04 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:53:09 -0500
Eric V. Smith e...@trueblade.com wrote:
So, I'm -1 on the PEP. It doesn't address the cases laid out in issue
3892. See for example
For not caring much, your own stubbornness is quite notable throughout this
discussion. Stones and glass houses. :)
That said:
Twisted and Mercurial aren't the only ones who are hurt by this, at all.
I'm aware of at least two other projects who are actively hindered in their
support or migration
On 1/11/2014 1:44 AM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
There's been a number of examples given: PDF, HTTP, network streams
that switch inline from text-ish to binary and back-again.. But, we
can focus that down to a very narrow and not at all uncommon situation
in the latter.
PDF has been mentioned a
I don't know what the fuss is about. This isn't about breaking the text model.
It's about a convenient way to turn text into bytes using a default, lenient,
way. Not the other way round.
Here's my proposal
b'foo%sbar' % (a)
would implicitly apply the following function equivalent to every
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:14 AM, Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au wrote:
Hi Juraj,
Hello Cameron.
data = b' '.join( bytify( [ 10, 0, obj, binary_image_data, ... ] ) )
Thanks for the suggestion! The problem with bytify is that some items
might require different formatting than other
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.infowrote:
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. I'm honestly not
trying to be difficult, but you sound confident that you understand what
you are doing, but your description doesn't make sense to me. To me, it
looks
The PEP 460 discussion threads made it clear that some of the
participants that weren't around for the earlier parts of the Python 3
transition were struggling with the fundamental conceptual differences
between the Python 2 and Python 3 text models.
Since other folks (including Armin Ronacher)
Am 11.01.2014 09:43, schrieb Nick Coghlan:
On 11 January 2014 12:28, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
On 01/10/2014 06:04 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:53:09 -0500
Eric V. Smith e...@trueblade.com wrote:
So, I'm -1 on the PEP. It doesn't address the cases laid out
Am 11.01.2014 10:44, schrieb Stephen Hansen:
I mean, its not like the bytes type lacks knowledge of the subset of bytes
that happen to be 7-bit ascii-compatible and can't perform text-ish operations
on them--
Python 3.3.3 (v3.3.3:c3896275c0f6, Nov 18 2013, 21:18:40) [MSC v.1600 32 bit
Am 11.01.2014 14:49, schrieb Georg Brandl:
Am 11.01.2014 10:44, schrieb Stephen Hansen:
I mean, its not like the bytes type lacks knowledge of the subset of bytes
that happen to be 7-bit ascii-compatible and can't perform text-ish
operations
on them--
Python 3.3.3
On 11.01.2014 14:54, Georg Brandl wrote:
Am 11.01.2014 14:49, schrieb Georg Brandl:
Am 11.01.2014 10:44, schrieb Stephen Hansen:
I mean, its not like the bytes type lacks knowledge of the subset of bytes
that happen to be 7-bit ascii-compatible and can't perform text-ish
operations
on
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:26:57 +0100
Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote:
Am 11.01.2014 03:04, schrieb Antoine Pitrou:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:53:09 -0500
Eric V. Smith e...@trueblade.com wrote:
So, I'm -1 on the PEP. It doesn't address the cases laid out in issue
3892. See for example
On 12 January 2014 01:15, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 11.01.2014 14:54, Georg Brandl wrote:
Am 11.01.2014 14:49, schrieb Georg Brandl:
Am 11.01.2014 10:44, schrieb Stephen Hansen:
I mean, its not like the bytes type lacks knowledge of the subset of
bytes
that happen to be 7-bit
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 01:56:56PM +0100, Juraj Sukop wrote:
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.infowrote:
If you consider PDF as binary with occasional pieces of ASCII text, then
working with bytes makes sense. But I wonder whether it might be better
to
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 01:34:26 +1000
Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, it bloody well does. The number of people who have told me that
using Python 3 is what allowed them to finally understand how Unicode
works vastly exceeds the number of wire protocol and file format devs
that have
On 01/11/2014 07:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
The point that I am making is that many people want to add formatting
operations to bytes so they can put ASCII strings inside bytes. But (as
far as I can tell) they don't need to do this, because they can treat
Unicode strings containing code
On 11.01.2014 16:34, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On 12 January 2014 01:15, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 11.01.2014 14:54, Georg Brandl wrote:
Am 11.01.2014 14:49, schrieb Georg Brandl:
Am 11.01.2014 10:44, schrieb Stephen Hansen:
I mean, its not like the bytes type lacks knowledge of the
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On 2014-01-10, 17:34 GMT, you wrote:
From my experience, the concept of a default locale is deeply
flawed. What if I log into a (Linux) machine using an old
latin-1 putty from the Windows XP era, have most file names
and contents in UTF-8
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On 2014-01-11, 10:56 GMT, you wrote:
I don't know what the fuss is about.
I just cannot resist:
When you are calm while everybody else is in the state of
panic, you haven’t understood the problem.
-- one of many collections of
On 01/11/2014 12:43 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
In particular, the bytes type is, and always will be, designed for
pure binary manipulation [...]
I apologize for being blunt, but this is a lie.
Lets take a look at the methods defined by bytes:
dir(b'')
['__add__', '__class__', '__contains__',
Hi,
I'm in favor of adding support of formatting integer and floatting
point numbers in the PEP 460: %d, %u, %o, %x, %f with padding and
precision (%10d, %010d, %1.5f) and sign (%-i, %+i) but without
alternate format ({:#x}). %s would also accept int and float for
convenience.
int and float
On 01/11/2014 07:34 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On 12 January 2014 01:15, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
We don't have to be pedantic about the bytes/text separation.
It doesn't help in real life.
Yes, it bloody well does. The number of people who have told me that
using Python 3 is what allowed them to
Am 11.01.2014 18:41, schrieb Victor Stinner:
Hi,
I'm in favor of adding support of formatting integer and floatting
point numbers in the PEP 460: %d, %u, %o, %x, %f with padding and
precision (%10d, %010d, %1.5f) and sign (%-i, %+i) but without
alternate format ({:#x}). %s would also accept
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:41:49 +0100
Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
If you agree, I will modify the PEP. If Antoine disagree, I will fork
the PEP 460 ;-)
Please fork it.
b'x=%s' % 10 is well defined, it's pure bytes.
It is well-defined? Then please explain me what the general
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 08:20:27AM -0800, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 01/11/2014 07:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
The point that I am making is that many people want to add formatting
operations to bytes so they can put ASCII strings inside bytes. But (as
far as I can tell) they don't need to do
On 01/11/2014 10:32 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:41:49 +0100
Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
If you agree, I will modify the PEP. If Antoine disagree, I will fork
the PEP 460 ;-)
Please fork it.
You've already stated you don't care that much and are
tl;dr: At the end I'm volunteering to look at real code that is having
porting problems.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 17:33:17 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
asciistr is interesting in that it coerces to bytes instead
of to Unicode (as is the case in Python 2).
At the moment it doesn't
M.-A. Lemburg writes:
I complete agree with Stephen, that bytes are in fact often
an encoding of text. If that text is ASCII compatible, I don't
see any reason why we should not continue to expose the C lib
standard string APIs available for text manipulations on bytes.
We already *have*
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 04:15:35PM +0100, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
I think we need to step back a little from the purist view
of things and give more emphasis on the practicality beats
purity Zen.
I complete agree with Stephen, that bytes are in fact often
an encoding of text. If that text is
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 05:33:17PM +0100, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
FWIW: I quite liked the Python 2 model, but perhaps that's because
I already knww how Unicode works, so could use it to make my
life easier ;-)
/incredulous
I would really love to see you justify that claim. How do you use the
On 2014-01-11 05:36, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
[snip]
Latin-1 has the nice property that every byte decodes into the character
with the same code point, and visa versa. So:
for i in range(256):
assert bytes([i]).decode('latin-1') == chr(i)
assert chr(i).encode('latin-1') == bytes([i])
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:38:01 -0800
Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
On 01/11/2014 10:32 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:41:49 +0100
Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
If you agree, I will modify the PEP. If Antoine disagree, I will fork
the PEP 460 ;-)
On 01/11/2014 10:36 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 08:20:27AM -0800, Ethan Furman wrote:
unicode to bytes
bytes to unicode using latin1
unicode to bytes
Where do you get this from? I don't follow your logic. Start with a text
template:
template =
Hi there.
How about a compromise?
Personally, I think adding the full complement of integer/float formatting to
bytes is a bit over the top.
How about just supporting two format specifiers?
%b : interpolate a bytes object. If it doesn't have the buffer interface,
error.
%s : interpolate a str
On Jan 11, 2014, at 10:38 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
You've already stated you don't care that much and are willing to let the PEP
as-is be rejected. Why not remove your name and let Victor have it back? Is
he not the original author? (If this is protocol just say so -- remember I'm
still new to
MRAB writes:
with open(outfile.pdf, w, encoding=latin-1) as f:
f.write(pdf)
[snip]
The second example won't work because you're forgetting about the
handling of line endings in text mode.
Not so fast! Forgot, yes (me too!), but not work? Not quite:
with
On 01/11/2014 11:49 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
MRAB writes:
with open(outfile.pdf, w, encoding=latin-1) as f:
f.write(pdf)
[snip]
The second example won't work because you're forgetting about the
handling of line endings in text mode.
Not so fast! Forgot, yes (me
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:54:26 -0800, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
On 01/11/2014 11:49 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
MRAB writes:
with open(outfile.pdf, w, encoding=latin-1) as f:
f.write(pdf)
[snip]
The second example won't work because you're
On Jan 11, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, it bloody well does. The number of people who have told me that
using Python 3 is what allowed them to finally understand how Unicode
works vastly exceeds the number of wire protocol and file format devs
that have
On 01/11/2014 11:22 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:38:01 -0800
Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
On 01/11/2014 10:32 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:41:49 +0100
Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
If you agree, I will modify the PEP. If
Am 11.01.2014 20:22, schrieb Antoine Pitrou:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:38:01 -0800
Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
On 01/11/2014 10:32 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:41:49 +0100
Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
If you agree, I will modify the PEP. If
11.01.14 21:40, Kristján Valur Jónsson написав(ла):
How about a compromise?
Personally, I think adding the full complement of integer/float formatting to
bytes is a bit over the top.
How about just supporting two format specifiers?
%b : interpolate a bytes object. If it doesn't have the buffer
Am 11.01.2014 22:01, schrieb Serhiy Storchaka:
11.01.14 21:40, Kristján Valur Jónsson написав(ла):
How about a compromise?
Personally, I think adding the full complement of integer/float formatting
to bytes is a bit over the top.
How about just supporting two format specifiers?
%b :
On 1/11/2014 1:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
We already *have* a type in Python 3.3 that provides text
manipulations on arrays of 8-bit objects: str (per PEP 393).
BTW: I don't know why so many people keep asking for use cases.
Isn't it obvious that text data without known (but ASCII
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
On 1/11/2014 1:44 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
We already *have* a type in Python 3.3 that provides text
manipulations on arrays of 8-bit objects: str (per PEP 393).
BTW: I don't know why so many people keep asking for
On 01/11/2014 12:45 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:
FWIW as one of the people who it took Python3 to finally figure out how to
actually use unicode, it was the absence of encode on bytes and decode on
str that actually did it. Giving bytes a format method would not have affected
that either way I
The docs say this [1]:
==
test.support.check_warnings(*filters, quiet=True)
A convenience wrapper for warnings.catch_warnings() that makes it easier to test that a warning was correctly
raised. It is approximately equivalent to
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:13 PM, Juraj Sukop juraj.su...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 12:49 AM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.netwrote:
Also, when you say you've never encountered UTF-16 text in PDFs, it
sounds like those people who've never encountered any non-ASCII data in
On 01/11/2014 10:32 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:41:49 +0100
Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
b'x=%s' % 10 is well defined, it's pure bytes.
It is well-defined? Then please explain me what the general case of
b'%s' % x
is supposed to call:
This is the
2014/1/11 Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us:
b'x=%s' % 10 is well defined, it's pure bytes.
It is well-defined? Then please explain me what the general case of
b'%s' % x
is supposed to call:
This is the key question, isn't it?
Python 2 and Python 3 are very different here.
In Python 2,
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 07:22:30PM +, MRAB wrote:
with open(outfile.pdf, w, encoding=latin-1) as f:
f.write(pdf)
[snip]
The second example won't work because you're forgetting about the
handling of line endings in text mode.
So I did! Thank you for the correction.
--
Steven
On 1/11/2014 1:50 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
Perhaps that's the problem. According to the docs:
object.__bytes__(self)
Called by bytes() to compute a byte-string representation of an
object. This should return a bytes
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On 2014-01-11, 18:09 GMT, you wrote:
We are NOT going back to the confusing incoherent mess that
is the Python 2 model of bolting Unicode onto the side of
POSIX . . .
We are not asking for that.
Yes, you do. Maybe not you personally, but
The following function interpolates bytes, bytearrays, and formatted
strings, the latter two auto-converted to bytes, into a bytes (or
auto-converted bytearray) format. This function automates much of what
some people have recommended for combining ascii text and binary blogs.
The test passes
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 04:28:34PM -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:
The problem with some criticisms of using 'unicode in Python 3' is that
there really is no such thing. Unicode in 3.0 to 3.2 used the old
internal model inherited from 2.x. Unicode in 3.3+ uses a different
internal model that is
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 08:13:39PM -0200, Mariano Reingart wrote:
AFAIK (and just for the record), there could be both Latin1 text and UTF-16
in a PDF (and other encodings too), depending on the font used:
[...]
In Python2, txt is just a str, but in Python3 handling everything as latin1
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
The docs say this [1]:
==
test.support.check_warnings(*filters, quiet=True)
A convenience wrapper for warnings.catch_warnings() that makes it
easier to test
On 11Jan2014 13:15, Juraj Sukop juraj.su...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 5:14 AM, Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au wrote:
data = b' '.join( bytify( [ 10, 0, obj, binary_image_data, ... ] ) )
Thanks for the suggestion! The problem with bytify is that some items
might require
No, I don't think it is.
The purpose is to make it easier to work with bytes objects. There can be no
python 2 compatibility when it comes to bytes/unicode conversion.
From: Python-Dev [python-dev-bounces+kristjan=ccpgames@python.org] on
behalf of
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 8:20 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
The following function interpolates bytes, bytearrays, and formatted
strings, the latter two auto-converted to bytes, into a bytes (or
auto-converted bytearray) format. This function automates much of what some
people have
On 01/11/2014 05:20 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
The following function . . .
Thanks, Terry, for doing that.
--
~Ethan~
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On 12 Jan 2014 03:29, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
On 01/11/2014 12:43 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
In particular, the bytes type is, and always will be, designed for
pure binary manipulation [...]
I apologize for being blunt, but this is a lie.
Lets take a look at the methods
On 12 Jan 2014 03:44, Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I'm in favor of adding support of formatting integer and floatting
point numbers in the PEP 460: %d, %u, %o, %x, %f with padding and
precision (%10d, %010d, %1.5f) and sign (%-i, %+i) but without
alternate format
On 01/08/2014 07:08 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
How hard would it be to put together some sample branches that provide
concrete examples of the various options?
My own opinion could easily be influenced by having some hands-on time with
actual code, and I suspect even Guido could be influenced if
On 01/11/2014 06:29 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 11:05:36AM -0800, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 01/11/2014 10:36 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 08:20:27AM -0800, Ethan Furman wrote:
unicode to bytes
bytes to unicode using latin1
unicode to bytes
On 12 January 2014 12:13, Brett Cannon br...@python.org wrote:
With that flexibility this matches what I have been mulling in the back of
my head all day. Basically everything that goes in is assumed to be bytes
unless {:s} says to expect something which can be passed to str() and then
use
On 01/11/2014 05:37 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
You're assuming the context manager is doing something magical to verify that
all calls in the block raise the expected
exception. What you want to do is execute it in a loop::
for test in (...):
with support.check_warnings((automatic int
On 12 January 2014 02:33, M.-A. Lemburg m...@egenix.com wrote:
On 11.01.2014 16:34, Nick Coghlan wrote:
While that was an *expedient* (and, in fact, necessary) solution at
the time, the fact it is still thoroughly confusing people 13 years
later shows it is not a *comprehensible* solution.
On 12 January 2014 04:38, R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com wrote:
But! Our goal should be to help people convert to Python3. So how can
we find out what the specific problems are that real-world programs are
facing, look at the *actual code*, and help that project figure out the
best
On 12 January 2014 16:22, senthil.kumaran python-check...@python.org wrote:
summary:
Issue #19092 - Raise a correct exception when cgi.FieldStorage is given an
invalid file-obj. Also use __bool__ to determine the bool of the FieldStorage
object.
Library
---
+- Issue #19097: Raise
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