Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

FYI, a lot of these ideas were discussed back in September and October of 2017 on this list if you search the subject lines for "startup" e.g. starting here and here: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2017-September/149150.html

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On Thursday, May 3, 2018, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 07:39:05AM +0200, Matěj Cepl wrote: > > > I have my doubts about IDLE though. I know, the same > > argument applies, but really, does anybody use IDLE for > > development for long time > > Yes, tons

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Gregory P. Smith wrote: > I'd also like to see this concept somehow extended to decorators so that the > results of the decoration can be captured in the compiled pyc rather than > requiring execution at import time. I realize that limits what

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 5:22 PM, Lukasz Langa wrote: > > > On May 2, 2018, at 8:57 PM, INADA Naoki wrote: > > > > Recently, I reported how stdlib slows down `import requests`. > > https://github.com/requests/requests/issues/4315#issuecomment-385584974 > >

Re: [Python-Dev] A fast startup patch (was: Python startup time)

+1 to the concept! On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Carl Shapiro wrote: > Hello, > > Yesterday Neil Schemenauer mentioned some work that a colleague of mine > (CCed) and I have done to improve CPython start-up time. Given the recent > discussion, it seems timely to

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

> On May 2, 2018, at 8:57 PM, INADA Naoki wrote: > > Recently, I reported how stdlib slows down `import requests`. > https://github.com/requests/requests/issues/4315#issuecomment-385584974 > > For Python 3.8, my ideas for faster startup time are: > > * Add lazy

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 6:55 PM, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Wed, May 2, 2018, 09:51 Gregory Szorc wrote: >> >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there downsides with regards to C >> extension compatibility to not having a shared libpython? Or does all

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:13 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Thanks for bringing this topic up again. At $day_job, this is a highly > visible and important topic, since the majority of our command line tools > are written in Python (of varying versions from 2.7 to 3.6). Some of

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On 5/3/2018 2:45 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: Let me express things right from the horse's mouth. Ditto, as the only person who responded on the tracker before you posted here and the only person other that Guido to respond on the tracker since and the only person to collect data

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On 2018-05-03, 15:56 GMT, Tim Peters wrote: > IDLE isn't just for eager beginners, but also for those so old > & senile they're incapable of learning anything new ever again. As > proof, IDLE is still _my_ primary Python development environment, used > multiple times every day, and I'm so old &

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 12:29 Guido van Rossum wrote: > EVENTUALLY WE'LL ALL BE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME. Sad. > Yep. And that leads to burn-out. So while Ivan may have lucked out in getting the attention of people who are helped him (and given the wrong kind of positive

[Python-Dev] A fast startup patch (was: Python startup time)

Hello, Yesterday Neil Schemenauer mentioned some work that a colleague of mine (CCed) and I have done to improve CPython start-up time. Given the recent discussion, it seems timely to discuss what we are doing and whether it is of interest to other people hacking on the CPython runtime. There

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 12:01 Facundo Batista wrote: > 2018-05-02 14:24 GMT-03:00 Brett Cannon : > > >> Maybe we should create a tool to list features scheduled for removal, > >> and open a discussion to check each removal? > > > > I don't know if a tool

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

EVENTUALLY WE'LL ALL BE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME. Sad. On Thu, May 3, 2018, 11:57 Brian Curtin wrote: > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:45 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < > python-dev@python.org> wrote: > >> On 03.05.2018 21:31, Brett Cannon wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, 3 May 2018 at

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

2018-05-02 14:24 GMT-03:00 Brett Cannon : >> Maybe we should create a tool to list features scheduled for removal, >> and open a discussion to check each removal? > > I don't know if a tool is necessary. We could have a meta issue or text file > somewhere to track what's to be

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

On Wed, May 2, 2018, 20:59 INADA Naoki wrote: > Recently, I reported how stdlib slows down `import requests`. > https://github.com/requests/requests/issues/4315#issuecomment-385584974 [...] > * Add faster and simpler http.parser (maybe, based on h11 [1]) and avoid >

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:45 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote: > On 03.05.2018 21:31, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > > On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore wrote: > >> On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> >> >> Will

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On 03.05.2018 21:31, Brett Cannon wrote: On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore > wrote: On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano > wrote: >> Will all due respect, it's sometimes

[Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore wrote: > On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > >> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording > >> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity > >>

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On 03.05.2018 20:11, Ryan Gonzalez wrote: On May 3, 2018 11:56:24 AM MRAB wrote: On 2018-05-03 13:24, Steve Holden wrote: On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev > wrote:     On 03.05.2018

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 07:31 Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 3 May 2018 at 15:56, Glenn Linderman wrote: > >> On 5/2/2018 8:56 PM, Gregory Szorc wrote: >> >> Nobody in the project is seriously talking about a complete rewrite in >> Rust. Contributors to the

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On May 3, 2018 11:56:24 AM MRAB wrote: On 2018-05-03 13:24, Steve Holden wrote: On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev > wrote: On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

Maybe the only 1 thing needs an update : some nice ui else, i'm glad python has a gui library as one interested in languages, py is just crazy (though i miss some android apps using it). in a GPL, a gui library is one of those extra goodies if you would browse the source codes, you'd see good

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On 2018-05-03 13:24, Steve Holden wrote: On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev > wrote: On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100 Paul Moore

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Matěj Cepl ] > It absolutely impossible to remove Tkinter IMHO (it has been > part of stdlib since like forever and people expect it there; > its removal would be betrayal on the level of switching = to > :=), I have my doubts about IDLE though. I know, the same > argument applies,

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

On 3 May 2018 at 15:56, Glenn Linderman wrote: > On 5/2/2018 8:56 PM, Gregory Szorc wrote: > > Nobody in the project is seriously talking about a complete rewrite in > Rust. Contributors to the project have varying opinions on how aggressively > Rust should be utilized.

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

I'm hardly an expert, but AFAIK CPython's start-up issues are more due to a mix of architectural issues and the fact that it's hard to optimize imports while maintaining backwards compatibility with Python's dynamism. -- Ryan (ライアン) Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >>

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 575: Unifying function/method classes

On 5/3/2018 6:22 AM, Jeroen Demeyer wrote: On 2018-05-03 11:30, Victor Stinner wrote: Please don't queue backward incompatible changes for Python 4.0. You should use the regular deprecation process. I don't really see how that can be done here. As Stefan said The problem is that this change

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote: > On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > >> On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100 >> Paul Moore wrote: >> >>> On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >>>

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

One other small bit... There is some precedent for retaining modules where the underlying library was known to be buggy. The dearly departed bsddb module exposed libdb 1.85 (as I recall) which had an unfixable bug. Still, bsddb supported that broken version of the library for quite awhile before

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 575: Unifying function/method classes

On 2018-05-03 11:30, Victor Stinner wrote: Please don't queue backward incompatible changes for Python 4.0. You should use the regular deprecation process. I don't really see how that can be done here. As Stefan said The problem is that this change does not really fit into the deprecation

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 575: Unifying function/method classes

2018-05-03 11:22 GMT+02:00 Stefan Behnel : > The final split could then be done later, e.g. for Py4.0, where people > would be less surprised about minor breakages. Please don't queue backward incompatible changes for Python 4.0. You should use the regular deprecation

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 575: Unifying function/method classes

Hi, let me start by saying that I'm much in favour of this change. It cleans up a lot of the function implementation and makes it much easier to integrate efficiently with external wrapper tools. Guido van Rossum schrieb am 14.04.2018 um 23:14: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 2:17 AM, Jeroen Demeyer

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording >> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity >> there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn" >> reads

Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time

On 5/2/2018 8:56 PM, Gregory Szorc wrote: Nobody in the project is seriously talking about a complete rewrite in Rust. Contributors to the project have varying opinions on how aggressively Rust should be utilized. People who contribute to the C code, low-level primitives (like storage, deltas,

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 07:39:05AM +0200, Matěj Cepl wrote: > I have my doubts about IDLE though. I know, the same > argument applies, but really, does anybody use IDLE for > development for long time Yes, tons of beginners use it. On the tutor and python-list mailing lists, there are plenty

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On 2018-05-02, 21:41 GMT, Guido van Rossum wrote: > So what do *you* think. Do you agree with the OP that Tkinter (and hence > IDLE) should be scrapped? It absolutely impossible to remove Tkinter IMHO (it has been part of stdlib since like forever and people expect it there; its removal would