a moderator).
Eric
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Sent from my iPhone
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atement in the following sense
>
> for _ in range(n):
> ...
> if not A:
> repeat # repeat current iteration
>
> Notice the "not" in the if clause. I am really looking forwars to hear your
> opinions.
>
> Best regards
> Thomas
>
> __
but
others will be mangled or missing text. This means you would still need to
maintain the Malman archive as the canonical source of truth. Once fixed,
not only would the [Python-Dev] archives be searchable within Discourse,
but they should also rank better in search than they do in
r your time!
Regards from rainy London,
Pablo Galindo Salgado
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a
wrote:
On Thu, Dec 01, 2022 at 10:18:49PM +, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev wrote:
Wild suggestion:
Make None.__hash__ writable.
E.g.
None.__hash__ = lambda : 0 # Currently raises AttributeError:
'NoneType' object attribute '__hash__' is read-only
You would have to
You're right of course. Oh well, it *was* a wild idea.😁
Rob Cliffe
On 04/12/2
On 04/12/2022 18:16, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 at 05:11, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev
wrote:
Wild suggestion:
Make None.__hash__ writable.
E.g.
None.__hash__ = lambda : 0 # Curr
e. A
singleton class can have a hash function that matches identity based
equality without using id: any constant hash function will do.
--
Oscar
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ne)
4429
The motivation for this and other threads is to bring determinism in
the *narrow* sense. Others (including me) have made references to
other kinds of determinism that have derailed the threads by
misunderstanding exactly what Yoni is referring to. The *stronger*
sense of determinism would be useful
Thank you all for your responses!
Best,
Mark
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https
most helpful. If there is a
more ideal forum to raise this question, please redirect me there.
Thank you in advance
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ype annotation for mypy:
https://github.com/python/mypy/issues/4468
[2] pure-func module: https://pypi.org/project/pure-func/
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https://mail.p
@,/usr/local/bin/python3.10," < ./Misc/python-config.in
>python-config.py
LC_ALL=C sed -e 's,\$(\([A-Za-z0-9_]*\)),\$\{\1\},g' < Misc/python-config.sh
>python-config
make[1]: Leaving directory '/home/kevin/Sources/Python-3.10.5'
This looks to me like it
On 15/07/2022 16:09, Rob Boehne via Python-Dev wrote:
100% agree – dealing with 5 or more platforms for discussion groups is
a nightmare, and I tend not to follow any of them as closely for that
reason.
I agree. I don't mind having to use Discourse if I want to take part in
a discussio
.g. the WebAssembly group is: https://discuss.python.org/c/webassembly/28
And its corresponding RSS feed is:
https://discuss.python.org/c/webassembly/28.rss
Cheers,
Peter
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100% agree – dealing with 5 or more platforms for discussion groups is a
nightmare, and I tend not to follow any of them as closely for that reason.
From: Skip Montanaro
Date: Friday, July 15, 2022 at 9:26 AM
To: Petr Viktorin
Cc: python-dev@python.org
Subject: [SPAM] [Python-Dev] Re
> Would you be interested in being posted about my progress ?
>
> Best
>
> Matthieu
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m wondering how this plays with
> pseudo-instruction: in particular are pseudo-instructions generated for all
> entries in the exception table ?
>
> My initial idea was to have a SETUP_FINALLY/SETUP_CLEANUP - POP_BLOCK pair
> for each line in the exception table and label for the ju
probably in the form of
an update to PEP 649?) sometime after PyCon.
Carl
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Me
On 26/04/2022 20:48, Carl Meyer via Python-Dev wrote:
On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 1:25 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
I also would like to hear more about the problem this is trying to solve, when
th real-world examples. (E.g. from pydantic?)
Yes please. I think these threads have jumped far too
orting some other module, causes very specific problems in being able to
locally reason about code. I think it is more useful to discuss the
specific behavior and its consequences than what it is called.
Carl
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its reliance on import side effects
causing global changes at a distance. See
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/NMCS77YFM2V54PUB66AXEFTE4NXFHWPI/
for details.
Under PEP 649, forward references are a small problem confined to the
edge case of early resolution of
ly waving his
hands).
Ronald
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Message ar
ct.
Ronald
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ython code (non-empty ``__slots__`` in a type subclass is
rejected at runtime), but you can do this in C code.
Ronald
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t;Python without
typing".
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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* Erik, could you propose a change to the PEP text?
I just created https://github.com/python/peps/pull/2555 to address these issues.
-Erik
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rebound, as in plain name binding, when the second part
> is declared. I've stated that amidst my ramblings,
> but Nick Coghlan managed to keep it suscint at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/DMITVTUIQKJW6RYVOPQXHD54VSYE7QHA/
I don't think name
en if not all names referenced in
them are defined yet at the time of introspection, is much less
invasive and more practical.
Carl
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h
e in case anyone wants to experiment with it further.
Also, it's intentionally delicate; it only works on git checkout
trees, and only with
one specific revision id:
7b87e8af0cb8df0d76e8ab18a9b12affb4526103
Postscript
Thanks to Eric V. Smith and Barry Warsaw for proofreading and
please provide some input on this
Please ask the pyinstaller developers about this.
Ronald
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Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
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I'll only blame myself :)
Best,
Daniel
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ase send any comments there.
Any feedback would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Erik
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Message
if you modify
sys.modules by hand, which means it would never be safe to do so, i.e., the
behavior might change arbitrarily in a future Python version. But in my opinion
there are legitimate cases where it is necessary to ensure a module will be
reloaded the next time it is imported, and the doc
If you want to catch errors earlier, use a
static analysis tool to help catch them.
Carl
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CLIs just by making imports lazy. We've also opened an
issue to discuss the possibility of upstreaming this. [2]
[1] https://github.com/facebookincubator/cinder/#strict-modules
[2] https://bugs.python.org/issue46963
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ed. I was able to fix the bug some other way, but I
think it would still be worthwhile to either make the import behavior more
consistent (so that 'import A.B' always sets the B attribute of A) or add a
warning in the documentation about this case. I'd appreciate any thoughts on
this
its.
Carl
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ith multiple uses are a middle ground.)
Carl
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e in scope for the stdlib. I’m a fan of a batteries included
stdlib, but with our current resources we cannot afford to have some bits in
the stdlib that would “obviously” be a candidate for a modern batteries
included stdlib, such as a decent HTTP stack with support for HTTP/1, /2 and
/3.
nks,
Jason
From: Victor Stinner
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2022 7:56 AM
To: Steve Dower
Cc: Jason Ansel; python-dev@python.org
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Re: C API: Move PEP 523 "Adding a frame evaluation
API to CPython" private C API to the internal C API
On Wed, Mar
like, let alone on how to get there.
Ronald
>
> -Brett
>
>
> -CHB
>
> --
> Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
>
> Python Language Consulting
> - Teaching
> - Scientific Software Development
> - Desktop GUI and Web Development
> - wxPython, numpy, scipy, C
release.
If the changed happens, would PyTorch still be able to use the eval frame API?
Or would it prevent from being used entirely?
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https
didn't - in either case it's not an interesting part of the
module's API).
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7;D' is not defined
I think we should change import * to exclude the __future__ import objects, and
perhaps also to not show them in dir(x). Any objections?
This came up in the discussion about https://bugs.python.org/issue26120 . See
the attached PR for a technique we can use to identify tho
e that
value in the __slots__ attribute of the class
That way the value of the attribute reflects the slots that were created while
not breaking code that uses __slots__ and doesn’t change the value after class
creation.
Ronald
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 6:57 AM Ronald Ouss
class definition,
changing it afterwards is possible but has no effect (“class Foo: pass;
Foo.__slots__ = 42”). This surprised my recently and I have no idea if this
feature is ever used.
Ronald
>
> _______
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python
platform
> definition.
CTypes is hardware specific, although through libiff. There’s also intermittent
discussions about support for ancient hardware platforms. Would we block a
release when (for example) support for Linux on sparc32 is broken?
Ronald
—
Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldou
coming from reference
counts and the GC head mutations.
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Compiler Group
[1] “Faster startup -- Share code objects from memory-mapped file”,
https://github.com/faster-cpython/ideas/discussions/150
[2] PEP 683: "Immortal Objects, Using a Fixed Refcount" (draft),
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.o
g: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
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itions.
Although my gut feeling is that adding a the CI check you mention is good
enough and adding the tooling for generating code isn’t worth the additional
complexity.
Ronald
—
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Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
_____________
be used and
tested with pre-releases of CPython, although possibly with less performance.
Ronald
>
> Maybe we should advertise the two modes more. And make sure that both work.
> There are certainly issues with the current state of the "limited API"
> implementation
reduce your maintenance burden.
With better communication we could find ways to do that.
Returning to the issue that started this thread - how do you suggest we
proceed with the exc_info change?
Irit
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T
e Cython is not
> part
> of the CPython source tree, it's part of the bigger picture).
>
> --
> Miro Hrončok
> --
> Phone: +420777974800
> IRC: mhroncok
>
> _______
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> To u
; for cffi and PyO3, too...
>
> I would prefer if we can get Cython and all the other code generator and
> bindings library off the unstable C-API. They should use the limited API
> instead. If they require any C-APIs outside the limited API, then we
> should investigate and figure
bad impression to
others about their intentions (constant contribution of trivial / low quality
stuff with little-to-no-gain to achieve a higher number of commits, since it is
a visible metric)._______________
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roved
>> from core-devs or triage members but not merged yet.
>>
>
>> > I know "drive by approvals" are annoying but I think it is
>> unfortunately part of open source projects.
>> >
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't think so.
>>
>
commits (get a higher number of commits
into the repository, and boast about it)?
In the past there were one or two people who would submit typo fixes, but most
of them weren't making it continuously. The situation right now feels much
worse than those.______
for
> non-typed Python as well.
>
>
> Thank you for your patience as we set up the new SC, and happy typing!
> - Petr (on behalf of the Python Steering Council)
>
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ng I'll suggest
> accepting the PEP with a note that
> - index assignment is also affected, and
> - the details around multiple unpackings in a type expression aren't
> specified precisely. This gives individual type checkers some leeway,
> but can be tightened in future PEPs.
C
within a single
>>>>> type parameter list. This requirement would therefore need to be
>>>>> implemented in type checking tools themselves rather than at the syntax
>>>>> level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Typing annotations are sometimes used for o
Generic[*T2]) -> Generic[*T1, *T2]: ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think that sentence is trying to forbid this. The problem
>>> appears in things like
>>>
>>> def foo(*args: tuple[*Ts1, *Ts2]) -> ...
>>>
>>> Maybe the
rray[*Ts1], y: Array[*Ts2]) as the
example? That seems unambiguous since the two positional arguments are
given separately.
Sorry, yes!
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ved?
>>
>>
>>> If multiple unpackings in a tuple aren't blocked by the compiler, they
>>> should be tested and documented as syntactically valid annotations --
>>> just not valid static typing annotations (even though other uses are
>>> currently dep
correct.
In any case, this is definitely something we should explain better in the
PEP. I'll make a TODO for myself to write something on this once Pradeep
and Guido have confirmed whether my understanding is correct.
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we share that view?
>>
>
> Agreed that the syntax with multiple stars will not be deprecated at
> runtime, but type checkers may reject it. (Just as type checkers reject
> many other programs that would run fine.)
>
>
>> And after reading the PEP again, I
b.com/python/cpython/pull/29560
Thanks!
Carey
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efinite +1 on new callable
syntax for me.
p.s. I'm +0.5 on | binding tighter than ->
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tiple `_` is a runtime
error. Maybe it would make too much of a mess.
After some testing evidently mypy only applies its knowledge sometimes anyway:
https://github.com/python/mypy/issues/11807
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Code of Co
> On 10 Dec 2021, at 14:40, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2021 at 05:19:00PM +0100, Ronald Oussoren wrote:
>
>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2015-October/141953.html
>> is an old thread about the difference between type(x)/Py_TYP
probably break objects which intentionally lie about their class.
> (Mocks? Stubs? Proxies?)
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2015-October/141953.html
<https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2015-October/141953.html> is an
old thread about the difference between typ
ful contributions
from users.
-CHB
--
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
Python Language Consulting
- Teaching
- Scientific Software Development
- Desktop GUI and Web Development
- wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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zèle". [Charles-Maurice de Talleyrand]
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quot; is already optimized by the compiler. The OP
proposes to optimize "2 < 1", and I cannot imagine any use case for this.
I agree. I suggest we don’t add this optimization.
Eric
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To
t the purpose of annotations had
not really been specified as being about typing in the first place.
It looks to me like Chris has identified in PEP 563 what is
potentially the earliest reference (in an accepted PEP) to the idea
that non-typing uses of annotations are to be discouraged.
--
Osc
x27;s fine.
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On 21/11/2021 11:04, Paul Moore wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 at 07:50, Christopher Barker wrote:
It's becoming harder and harder for people not particularly interested
in static typing to simply ignore it
(Raises hand.) +1
Rob Cliffe
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s to Python 3.11 at your convenience.
>>>
>>> With our appreciation,
>>> -Barry (on behalf of the Python Steering Council)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun h
> -Barry (on behalf of the Python Steering Council)
>>
>>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>
>
as identifier body characters. “︳” especially could be
>> misread as “|” followed by a space, when it actually normalizes to “_”.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Potential beneficial uses:
>>
>> I am considering taking my transformer code and experi
]
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string is (vacuously but correctly) a substring of any string. This may
be inconvenient sometimes (as you say) but it is the logically correct
behaviour. Just as the modulus operator for ints returns the
mathematically correct result (unlike in some languages such as C / C++)
even though this
nt was introduced to support some cross compilation
scenario’s (see https://bugs.python.org/issue16235
<https://bugs.python.org/issue16235>).
Ronald
>
> Cheers,
> Filipe Laíns
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re examples are in PEP 505 itself, see
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0505/#examples
<https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0505/#examples>
--
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido <http://python.org/~guido>)
/Pronouns: he/him //(why is my pronoun here?)/
<http://feministing.com/2015/0
l the way down to `object`), it's still ironic that C++'s `and_then` looks
more pythonic than what's proposed here.
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`int`, and the rest of which are bound to `Ts`. And this is indeed
something we haven't talked about explicitly how to specify yet.
Most of the discussion of PEP 646 has taken place on typing-sig, so I'll start
a new thread there to discuss this.
_________
ons. I did an experiment
> early on where I included locking around reads as well. I think it slowed down
> the pyperformance benchmarks by ~10% on average, but I can't find my notes
> so I plan to re-run the experiment.
>
> Additionally, because dicts are used for things like g
lass field Final:
a: Final[int] = dataclasses.field(init=False, default=10)
I've opened an issue as well and would greatly appreciate any feedback:
https://bugs.python.org/issue45384
I appreciate your time,
Gregory Beauregard
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I agree that *(E1, E2) looks like unpacking, how about
except *E1 as error: ...
except (*E1, *E2) as error: ...
even better would be if we could drop the braces:
except *E1, *E2 as error: ...
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To
On 05/10/2021 07:59, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, 6:55 am Brett Cannon, wrote:
On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 3:51 AM Phil Thompson via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:
However the stable ABI is still a second class citizen as it is still
not possible (AFAIK) to spe
I would be in favor of
that, or something like it.
Or perhaps `except for` ?
We could of course bike shed on the syntax forever. The PSC did vote to accept
the PEP but we left room for changes while during the 3.11 cycle.
-Barry
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advantage, as I see it, from a linguistic point of view, is that
> "except in" could be read as "excluding", but, then, so could "except each"
> ("excluding each of these") and "except group" ("excluding this group").
&g
change that (e.g., make except* a token), and in any case we need to settle
on a convention that we use in documentation, etc.
It is also not too late to opt for a completely different syntax if a
better one is suggested.
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> On 28 Sep 2021, at 10:54, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:51:53 +0200
> Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev wrote:
>>> On 28 Sep 2021, at 10:05, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:51:43 -0600
>>> Eric Sno
On 27/09/2021 21:53, Brett Cannon wrote:
On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 3:51 AM Phil Thompson via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:
On 26/09/2021 05:21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
[snip]
> These are not rhetorical questions, I genuinely do not know. I *think*
> that there
al puzzlement.
I agree, but… Most CPython tests are run while running from the source tree,
that means that there will have to be testrunner configurations that run with
“-X frozen_modules=on”.
Ronald
—
Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren
Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
binary wheels for you (for example using
cibuildwheel).
Ronald
—
Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren
Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
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h
s of Python (even though those packages had been explicitly
designed to do so).
Phil
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