See "A formal specification for the (C)Python virtual machine - Python
Language Summit 2020" by Mark Shannon:
https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2020/04/a-formal-specification-for-cpython.html
Victor
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 7:40 PM Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>
> What would it take to create an ANSI, ECMA
On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 7:38 AM Wes Turner wrote:
>
> https://awesome-safety-critical.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
> https://awesome-safety-critical.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#software-safety-standards
>
> What is and is not constant time in Python could be added to structured data
> elements in (imp
https://awesome-safety-critical.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
https://awesome-safety-critical.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#software-safety-standards
What is and is not constant time in Python could be added to structured
data elements in (implementations') docstrings.
*
"The Python Language Referen
Paul Sokolovsky writes:
> Hello,
>
> On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 23:10:59 +0900
> "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote:
>
> > Chris Angelico writes:
> >
> > > Can you explain what would be improved by having a formalized
> > > standard?
> >
> > The Language Reference together with the Library Re
Not sure about python, but throughout my career I had to work with
MISRA C standardisation for critical systems.
There is more and more that is handled by python that also needs to go
through validation. I wonder if there's value in that?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 18:40, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>
>
On 2/12/21 5:19 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
From talking to people who at various times have participated in a
language standardization process, I've learned that it's not a panacea,
it's an enormous amount of work, it doesn't guarantee a good outcome,
and plenty of languages do just fine wi
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 3:36 PM Dan Stromberg wrote:
> I think standardizing Python might be really good for controlling its growth
> and avoiding featuritis.
The dynamics of standard committees lead to even more acute cases of
featuritis: "I support your pet feature if you support mine."
Cheer
Hello,
On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 23:10:59 +0900
"Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote:
> Chris Angelico writes:
>
> > Can you explain what would be improved by having a formalized
> > standard?
>
> The Language Reference together with the Library Reference *already*
> constitute a formalized standard. Th
Chris Angelico writes:
> Can you explain what would be improved by having a formalized
> standard?
The Language Reference together with the Library Reference *already*
constitute a formalized standard. They are at least as precise as
most W3C or IETF standards.
What you and Dan seem to be ref
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:54:44 +0300
Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:
> How a standard by ANSI, ECMA and/or ISO is any better than a standard by the
> PSF?
The PSF has nothing to do with it. The Python language is controlled
by the core development team. I wouldn't be surprised if some members
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 12:33, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> What would it take to create an ANSI, ECMA and/or ISO standard for Python?
>
> It seems to have really helped C.
That confuses cause and effect. C was standardized because there sprung up
hundreds of vaguely compatible implementations—a
But this message seems to say "Argue with me!"
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A call for standardization is typically done when multiple competing
de-facto standards competing for space, especially if it's relatively
immature, as a way to bring stakeholders together and reduce fragmentation.
You don't just go through the standards process for its own sake, unless
it's a requ
>From talking to people who at various times have participated in a language
standardization process, I've learned that it's not a panacea, it's an
enormous amount of work, it doesn't guarantee a good outcome, and plenty of
languages do just fine without it. Also, it costs real money. A lot. I have
On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 10:42 AM Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:26 PM Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 6:58 AM Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> > I believe Python needs to become more independent of CPython, for Python's
>> > long term health.
>> >
>>
>> Since 19
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:26 PM Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 6:58 AM Dan Stromberg wrote:
> > I believe Python needs to become more independent of CPython, for
> Python's long term health.
> >
>
> Since 1997, Python has been defined independently of CPython.
Really? It sound
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:01 PM Greg Ewing
wrote:
> On 13/02/21 9:03 am, Paul Bryan wrote:
> > What if PSF were to undertake codifying a language specification?
>
> We have the Language Reference and Library Reference. Do they
> not count as specifications?
>
It's been a long time since I looked
I definitely think they could. As a developer using Python, they're
fully sufficient for my purposes.
I honestly don't know enough about non-CPython implementations and
their challenges to know what gaps (if any) would need to be filled to
fully implement a compatible version.
On Sat, 2021-02-13
On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 6:58 AM Dan Stromberg wrote:
> I believe Python needs to become more independent of CPython, for Python's
> long term health.
>
Since 1997, Python has been defined independently of CPython. There
are numerous documents that define the language semantics for the
benefit of
On 13/02/21 9:03 am, Paul Bryan wrote:
What if PSF were to undertake codifying a language specification?
We have the Language Reference and Library Reference. Do they
not count as specifications?
--
Greg
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That could be good. :) And sometimes standards are rubber stamped by
other bodies.
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:03 PM Paul Bryan wrote:
> What if PSF were to undertake codifying a language specification?
>
> On Fri, 2021-02-12 at 11:57 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11
What if PSF were to undertake codifying a language specification?
On Fri, 2021-02-12 at 11:57 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:02 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev
> wrote:
> > How a standard by ANSI, ECMA and/or ISO is any better than a
> > standard by the PSF?
> >
>
>
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:02 AM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:
> How a standard by ANSI, ECMA and/or ISO is any better than a standard by
> the PSF?
>
I don't think what the PSF is producing is truly a standard.
> Is PSF bad at "controlling its growth and avoiding fe
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:51 AM Paul Bryan wrote:
> From my point of view, the process of standardizing through a formal
> standards body is a tedious, verbose, laborious, bureaucratic and
> often contentious process.
>
I've never participated in such a standardization, but I'm sure it's hard
wo
How a standard by ANSI, ECMA and/or ISO is any better than a standard by the
PSF?
Is PSF bad at "controlling its growth and avoiding featuritis" in your opinion
or smth?
On 12.02.2021 21:33, Dan Stromberg wrote:
What would it take to create an ANSI, ECMA and/or ISO standard for Python?
It s
>From my point of view, the process of standardizing through a formal
standards body is a tedious, verbose, laborious, bureaucratic and
often contentious process.
I'd really like to know quantitatively what the benefits would be of
running that gauntlet, as I'm not sure they would outweigh the cos
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