[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 585: Type Hinting Generics In Standard Collections

[Ethan Smith]

The discussion on the name change came from Łukasz
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/18239#discussion_r380996908

I suggested "GenericType" to be in line with other things in types.py.

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 8:39 PM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> I can't find it right now, but IIRC somebody commented that "GenericAlias"
> is a somewhat odd name. I didn't spend much time thinking about the name, I
> just took it from `typing._GenericAlias` (which has a similar role).
>
> It would be hard to change the name later. ATM it's one global substitute
> on my branch. Should we change it? To what?
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> 
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/B7P3DITJDZAUHWESPBI34IYMALULGTF2/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 585: Type Hinting Generics In Standard Collections

[Guido van Rossum]

I can't find it right now, but IIRC somebody commented that "GenericAlias"
is a somewhat odd name. I didn't spend much time thinking about the name, I
just took it from `typing._GenericAlias` (which has a similar role).

It would be hard to change the name later. ATM it's one global substitute
on my branch. Should we change it? To what?

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/PWAGCL3TQG3DPZ4D7Z7QB4WLHWAY3F4M/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Accepting PEP 584: Add Union Operators To dict

[Guido van Rossum]

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10:42 AM Brandt Bucher 
wrote:

> > Are these three cookie classes sufficiently popular that we need to
> support `|` on them?
>
> I don't have much experience with `http`, so I figured I'd open a BPO
> issue and let the relevant folks make the call. The main reason I'm
> considering these is that `Morsel` was updated back in 3.5 with `copy` and
> `update` overrides:
>
> https://bugs.python.org/issue2211
>

OK, that removes my objection.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/MK6EJS7HCCEXKOSX4FVKWDZCIQYQUPQX/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Merging PRs without CLA signed

[Mariatta]

FWIW, I'm also one of the few core devs who won't merge a PR unless CLA is
signed.
Such PRs (and the backports) can't be automerged, creating manual work.

I find the "triviality" is subjective. One line change in documentation is
maybe trivial. One line change in the code is probably not as trivial.
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/ORBVOSW64EMTGHMD5IBEBN5AITLCVBM5/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Merging PRs without CLA signed

[Terry Reedy]

On 2/23/2020 11:44 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 8:11 PM Kyle Stanley > wrote:


In a recently opened typo fixing PR [1], an issue came up regarding
the lack of a signed CLA, where the author specifically mentioned
they did not want to sign it for privacy concerns.


In that case I'm not sure the author ought to get credit for the PR. 


If the account has a real name, then there cannot be a privacy concern. 
If if does not, then credit can only be claimed privately.


They can file a bug pointing out the typo and someone else can submit a 
fix.


One of that justifications given for moving to github was that is would 
allow trivial changes to be submitted without an issue.  Allowing merges 
for trivial changes without a CLA was intentional, after discussion.


To summarize my response a few minutes ago to Antoine and Chris 
Angelico, I consider trivial to mean non-copyrightable because short and 
fact based.


(This is what Glyph had to do for all his contributions while he 
was employed at Apple.)


And what anyone in a similar situation should still do for anything 
non-trivial.
Yeah, typically we don't insist on a CLA for trivial fixes -- it's at 
the discretion of the core dev reviewing/merging the PR. I actually 
thought this was a policy that was written down somewhere, but I don't 
know where (maybe somewhere in the devguide?).


I remember seeing it too.  It may have originally been in the tracker 
instructions, but should definitely be in the devguide now.





--
Terry Jan Reedy
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/UARCSQSBLTU2YHOM4QDTGNYXXDWVM26W/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Accepting PEP 584: Add Union Operators To dict

[Brandt Bucher]

> Are these three cookie classes sufficiently popular that we need to support 
> `|` on them?

I don't have much experience with `http`, so I figured I'd open a BPO issue and 
let the relevant folks make the call. The main reason I'm considering these is 
that `Morsel` was updated back in 3.5 with `copy` and `update` overrides:

https://bugs.python.org/issue2211
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/NWJIVQ35JYM2VAG6JHTNWPHZKAAM2GJQ/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Merging PRs without CLA signed

[Terry Reedy]

On 2/24/2020 10:32 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 2:25 AM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:



I'd like to point out that the relevant perspective here isn't PSF
policy as much as copyright law.


Since Python is copyrighted in the US and the license specifies Virginia 
as the state of jurisdiction, I presume we can reference US law and 
precedents.



 Something as trivial as a typo fix
for sure isn't copyrightable, so there's no point in requiring a CLA
for it.  


Copyright serves to protect 'creative expression'.  Facts are not 
creative expression.  (But they can be creatively expressed.)  A typo 
fix changes a 'creative spelling' to a standard spelling, found in 
dictionaries, that is nearly always unique and never, that I know of, 
has more than two choices.  They can be made by programs, and multiple 
fixes in one PR are the result of such programs.


Grammar fixes are similar in standardizing 'creative writing'.  Link 
fixes usually update changed facts.



For more involved changes, things are less clear, and a court
would be the final authority; but that's admittedly an argument for
erring on the side of caution and requiring a CLA for *any* non-trivial
change.


I agree.  If a change is subject to discussion and disagreement beyond a 
choice of facts, best to have a CLA.



I don't think anyone disputes that the CLA is needed for any
non-trivial change. The question is, what constitutes a non-trivial
change?  > Is it subjective? What's the smallest copyrightable edit
(which may or may not be related to the smallest copyrightable piece
of text)?


US courts have wrestled with this as people have tried to claim 
copyright on short bits of language, music, or movement.  I am pretty 
sure that two words, notes, or positions (and the transitions between) 
are generally considered too short.  (Which is why game emotes can 
legally copy 'signature' dance moves that consist of 'start pose 
transition to end pose'.)



Does it depend on context - is fixing a link more trivial
than fixing a piece of English?


Depends on the length of the 'piece'.  See discussion of data above.


It'd be great to get a lawyer's firm stance on this. On the PEPs repo,
I've merged a good few simple PRs, and don't want to be putting the
PSF into legal trouble.


Sentences are usually creative, not merely trivial.


--
Terry Jan Reedy
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/QBIHIMGBOGIWJ443GINA24GH5V4O4YIL/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Merging PRs without CLA signed

[Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev]

On 24.02.2020 8:30, Kyle Stanley wrote:
> (What is it with typos anyway? Why do people feel the need to invoke megabytes if not gigabytes of internet traffic to correct a word 
that every reader can easily correct in their mind?)


Speaking from personal experience to some degree, my first PR was an incredibly minimal documentation enhancement: 
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/14069. It's not exactly a typo fix, but in retrospect, I'd consider it to be about equally 
impactful. I can't speak for everyone, but my own motivation was to do something very mildly helpful just to get a feel for the workflow. 
It eventually led to increasingly involved contributions. (:


I think some people might also consider grammatical corrections to be helpful for bolstering the "professionalism" of the documentation a 
bit, but it's hard to say for sure.


I can affirm that. Nothing says "amateurish" and "neglectful" like glaring grammatical errors. It shows that the author doesn't care about 
their users' convenience and likes to waste their time (the text _can_ be read but it's significantly _harder_ to read and otherwise use), 
and that other aspects of the work are likely similarly chaotic.


It's not even uncommon when they make the meaning unclear. Or e.g. typos or inconsistency in a term make it hard to locate other references 
to it or deduce if the phrase is being used as a term or as a common phrase.


___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/DDKRNSHJFQUDB5OU2D5KMARMRLQRXXX5/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Merging PRs without CLA signed

[David Mertz]

There is, for better or worse, no bright line about what is copyrightable.
Unfortunately, a lot of the standard is "how deep are the pockets of the
opposing party?"

If you are Oracle and you want to sue Google, code which any normal person
world consider trivial becomes precious intellectual property. Likewise, if
you are Microsoft and you can find a proxy in SCO to sabotage Linux.

If I, as a self-employed freelancer, contribute a couple lines to Python
without a CLA, I'm not going to sue anyone. But if I accept a job with some
huge tech company and sign standard employee agreements, they might, even
against my wishes.

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020, 10:39 AM Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 2:25 AM Antoine Pitrou 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 00:30:41 -0500
> > Kyle Stanley  wrote:
> > > > In that case I'm not sure the author ought to get credit for the PR.
> They
> > > can file a bug pointing out the typo and someone else can submit a fix.
> > >
> > > That sounds like a reasonable solution to me; even for more substantial
> > > issues (if signing the CLA is a genuine issue). I think there are a
> fair
> > > number of individuals out there who just want to fix something and
> aren't
> > > concerned with attributions or long-term contributions; they just want
> to
> > > fix the issue for themselves or perhaps for altruistic reasons.
> >
> > I'd like to point out that the relevant perspective here isn't PSF
> > policy as much as copyright law.  Something as trivial as a typo fix
> > for sure isn't copyrightable, so there's no point in requiring a CLA
> > for it.  For more involved changes, things are less clear, and a court
> > would be the final authority; but that's admittedly an argument for
> > erring on the side of caution and requiring a CLA for *any* non-trivial
> > change.
> >
>
> I don't think anyone disputes that the CLA is needed for any
> non-trivial change. The question is, what constitutes a non-trivial
> change? Is it subjective? What's the smallest copyrightable edit
> (which may or may not be related to the smallest copyrightable piece
> of text)? Does it depend on context - is fixing a link more trivial
> than fixing a piece of English?
>
> It'd be great to get a lawyer's firm stance on this. On the PEPs repo,
> I've merged a good few simple PRs, and don't want to be putting the
> PSF into legal trouble.
>
> ChrisA
> ___
> Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KNX3ZIQKABBNH6LXEWZ765UKVDR7C3CT/
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/NPH3SVMFISKVHVEFZEE5HL26SNVOKS4T/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Merging PRs without CLA signed

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 2:25 AM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 00:30:41 -0500
> Kyle Stanley  wrote:
> > > In that case I'm not sure the author ought to get credit for the PR. They
> > can file a bug pointing out the typo and someone else can submit a fix.
> >
> > That sounds like a reasonable solution to me; even for more substantial
> > issues (if signing the CLA is a genuine issue). I think there are a fair
> > number of individuals out there who just want to fix something and aren't
> > concerned with attributions or long-term contributions; they just want to
> > fix the issue for themselves or perhaps for altruistic reasons.
>
> I'd like to point out that the relevant perspective here isn't PSF
> policy as much as copyright law.  Something as trivial as a typo fix
> for sure isn't copyrightable, so there's no point in requiring a CLA
> for it.  For more involved changes, things are less clear, and a court
> would be the final authority; but that's admittedly an argument for
> erring on the side of caution and requiring a CLA for *any* non-trivial
> change.
>

I don't think anyone disputes that the CLA is needed for any
non-trivial change. The question is, what constitutes a non-trivial
change? Is it subjective? What's the smallest copyrightable edit
(which may or may not be related to the smallest copyrightable piece
of text)? Does it depend on context - is fixing a link more trivial
than fixing a piece of English?

It'd be great to get a lawyer's firm stance on this. On the PEPs repo,
I've merged a good few simple PRs, and don't want to be putting the
PSF into legal trouble.

ChrisA
___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/KNX3ZIQKABBNH6LXEWZ765UKVDR7C3CT/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/

[Python-Dev] Re: Merging PRs without CLA signed

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 00:30:41 -0500
Kyle Stanley  wrote:
> > In that case I'm not sure the author ought to get credit for the PR. They  
> can file a bug pointing out the typo and someone else can submit a fix.
> 
> That sounds like a reasonable solution to me; even for more substantial
> issues (if signing the CLA is a genuine issue). I think there are a fair
> number of individuals out there who just want to fix something and aren't
> concerned with attributions or long-term contributions; they just want to
> fix the issue for themselves or perhaps for altruistic reasons.

I'd like to point out that the relevant perspective here isn't PSF
policy as much as copyright law.  Something as trivial as a typo fix
for sure isn't copyrightable, so there's no point in requiring a CLA
for it.  For more involved changes, things are less clear, and a court
would be the final authority; but that's admittedly an argument for
erring on the side of caution and requiring a CLA for *any* non-trivial
change.

Regards

Antoine.

___
Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/
Message archived at 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/OVZPP3TAPZYZMKBPKPCG4ETVNMGEMRAJ/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/