Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-18 Thread Georg Brandl
Am 13.12.2010 21:08, schrieb Glenn Linderman: On 12/13/2010 11:39 AM, Mark Dickinson wrote: my_thing = Thing( foo = Foo(arg1, arg2, ...), bar = Bar(arg3, arg4, ...), ... ) and I've found the trailing comma very convenient during refactoring and API experimentation.

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-18 Thread Glenn Linderman
On 12/18/2010 1:04 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: Am 13.12.2010 21:08, schrieb Glenn Linderman: On 12/13/2010 11:39 AM, Mark Dickinson wrote: my_thing = Thing( foo = Foo(arg1, arg2, ...), bar = Bar(arg3, arg4, ...), ... ) and I've found the trailing comma very convenient during

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-14 Thread Ethan Furman
Terry Reedy wrote: On 12/13/2010 2:17 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:09:02 -0500 Alexander Belopolskyalexander.belopol...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Guido van Rossumgu...@python.org wrote: I'm at least +0 on allowing trailing commas in the

[Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Jan Kaliszewski
Dear Python Developers, It is s my first post to python-dev, so let me introduce myself briefly: Jan Kaliszewski, programmer and composer, sometimes also NGO activist. Coming to the matter... The discussion started with remark by Mark Dickinson about such a syntax oddity: def f(a, b,): ...

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Jan Kaliszewski z...@chopin.edu.pl wrote: I think that seeing that:    def f(a, b): ...    def f(a, *, b): ...    def f(a, *args, b): ...    x(1, 2, 3, 4, z=5)    x(1, *(2,3,4), z=5) As per the closure of the affected tickets, the likely outcome of such a

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Michael Foord
On 13/12/2010 13:25, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Jan Kaliszewskiz...@chopin.edu.pl wrote: I think that seeing that: def f(a, b): ... def f(a, *, b): ... def f(a, *args, b): ... x(1, 2, 3, 4, z=5) x(1, *(2,3,4), z=5) As per the closure of the

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/13/2010 08:25 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Jan Kaliszewski z...@chopin.edu.pl wrote: I think that seeing that: def f(a, b): ... def f(a, *, b): ... def f(a, *args, b): ... x(1, 2, 3, 4, z=5)

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: I actually make use of the feature when dealing with APIs which both a) take lots of arguments (more than fit comfortably on two lines at whatever indentation they are called), and b) have optional trailing arguments:  

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Jan Kaliszewski
Nick Coghlan dixit (2010-12-13, 23:25): Function arguments are not lists. Even when separated onto multiple lines, the closing ): should remain on the final line with other content. Not necessarily, IMHO. 1. What about my example with '- xxx' return-value annotation? (especially when that

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread R. David Murray
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 23:25:58 +1000, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Jan Kaliszewski z...@chopin.edu.pl wrote: I think that seeing that: =A0 =A0def f(a, b): ... =A0 =A0def f(a, *, b): ... =A0 =A0def f(a, *args, b): ... =A0 =A0x(1, 2, 3, 4, z=3D5)

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 5:42 AM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: I actually make use of the feature when dealing with APIs which both a) take lots of arguments (more than fit comfortably on two lines at whatever indentation they are called), and b) have optional trailing arguments:  I

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Alexander Belopolsky
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote: I'm at least +0 on allowing trailing commas in the situation the OP mentioned. FWIW, I am also about +0.5 on allowing trailing comma. Note that in a similar situation, the C standardization committee has erred on the

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:09:02 -0500 Alexander Belopolsky alexander.belopol...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote: I'm at least +0 on allowing trailing commas in the situation the OP mentioned. FWIW, I am also about +0.5 on allowing

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Glenn Linderman
On 12/13/2010 11:17 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:09:02 -0500 Alexander Belopolskyalexander.belopol...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Guido van Rossumgu...@python.org wrote: I'm at least +0 on allowing trailing commas in the situation the OP mentioned.

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Mark Dickinson
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:51 PM, R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com wrote: It seems like the status quo is fine.  I wouldn't object to it being made more consistent.  I would object to removing the existing cases. Same here, on all three counts. In one of the projects I'm currently working

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Glenn Linderman
On 12/13/2010 11:39 AM, Mark Dickinson wrote: my_thing = Thing( foo = Foo(arg1, arg2, ...), bar = Bar(arg3, arg4, ...), ... ) and I've found the trailing comma very convenient during refactoring and API experimentation. (There's still good fun to be had arguing about the

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Cameron Simpson
On 13Dec2010 20:17, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: | On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:09:02 -0500 | Alexander Belopolsky alexander.belopol...@gmail.com wrote: | | On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote: | I'm at least +0 on | allowing trailing commas in

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Terry Reedy
On 12/13/2010 2:17 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 14:09:02 -0500 Alexander Belopolskyalexander.belopol...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Guido van Rossumgu...@python.org wrote: I'm at least +0 on allowing trailing commas in the situation the OP mentioned.

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Raymond Hettinger
On Dec 13, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: Same here. A strong +1 for a consistent rule (always or never allowed) with a +1 for always given others use case of one param/arg per line. It seems to me that a trailing comma in an argument list is more likely to be a user error than a

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Guido van Rossum
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 13, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: Same here. A strong +1 for a consistent rule (always or never allowed) with a +1 for always given others use case of one param/arg per line. It seems to

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Glenn Linderman
On 12/13/2010 1:55 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: It seems to me that a trailing comma in an argument list is more likely to be a user error than a deliberate comma-for-the-future. It seems to me that a trailing comma, especially in the case of one parameter per line, is a deliberate

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Mark Dickinson dicki...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:51 PM, R. David Murray rdmur...@bitdance.com wrote: It seems like the status quo is fine. I wouldn't object to it being made more consistent. I would object to removing the existing cases.

Re: [Python-Dev] A grammatical oddity: trailing commas in argument lists -- continuation

2010-12-13 Thread Raymond Hettinger
On Dec 13, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Raymond Hettinger raymond.hettin...@gmail.com wrote: It seems to me that a trailing comma in an argument list is more likely to be a user error than a deliberate comma-for-the-future. Really? Have you