[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-15 Thread M.-A. Lemburg 
On 15.10.2020 15:50, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Le mer. 14 oct. 2020 à 17:59, Antoine Pitrou  a écrit :
>> unpack-sequence is a micro-benchmark. (...)
> 
> I suggest removing it.
> 
> I removed other similar micro-benchmarks from pyperformance in the
> past, since they can easily be misunderstood and misleading. For
> curious people, I'm keeping a collection of Python micro-benchmarks
> at:
> https://github.com/vstinner/pymicrobench

As mentioned, those micro benchmark are more helpful in identifying
performance regressions than macro benchmarks, esp. when you find that
a macro benchmark is showing issues.

When you find that a macro benchmark isn't performing well anymore,
it's very difficult understanding the cause and micro benchmarks
help identify the reasons.

So instead of removing them, I'd suggest to add them back to
the suite or have them run in a separate suite, specifically
called "micro benchmarks" to address you concern about people
misinterpreting them.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Oct 15 2020)
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[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-15 Thread Victor Stinner 
Le mer. 14 oct. 2020 à 17:59, Antoine Pitrou  a écrit :
> unpack-sequence is a micro-benchmark. (...)

I suggest removing it.

I removed other similar micro-benchmarks from pyperformance in the
past, since they can easily be misunderstood and misleading. For
curious people, I'm keeping a collection of Python micro-benchmarks
at:
https://github.com/vstinner/pymicrobench

Victor
-- 
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-14 Thread Pablo Galindo Salgado 
> Would it be possible instead to run git-bisect for only a _particular_
benchmark? It seems that may be all that’s needed to track down particular
regressions. Also, if e.g. git-bisect is used it wouldn’t be every e.g.
10th revision but rather O(log(n)) revisions.

That only works if there is a single change that produced the issue and not
many small changes that have a cumulative effect, which is normally the
case. Also, it does not work (is more tricky to make it work) if the issue
was introduced, then fixed somehow and then introduced again or in a worse
way.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 18:58, Chris Jerdonek 
wrote:

> MOn Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:03 AM Pablo Galindo Salgado <
> pablog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Would it be possible rerun the tests with the current
>> setup for say the last 1000 revisions or perhaps a subset of these
>> (e.g. every 10th revision) to try to binary search for the revision which
>> introduced the change ?
>>
>> Every run takes 1-2 h so doing 1000 would be certainly time-consuming :)
>>
>
> Would it be possible instead to run git-bisect for only a _particular_
> benchmark? It seems that may be all that’s needed to track down particular
> regressions. Also, if e.g. git-bisect is used it wouldn’t be every e.g.
> 10th revision but rather O(log(n)) revisions.
>
> —Chris
>
>
>
>
> That's why from now on I am trying to invest in daily builds for master,
>> so we can answer that exact question if we detect regressions in the
>> future.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 15:04, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>>> On 14.10.2020 16:00, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>>> >> Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
>>> > it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?
>>> >
>>> > Unfortunately no. The reasons are that that data was misleading because
>>> > different points were computed with a different version of
>>> pyperformance and
>>> > therefore with different packages (and therefore different code). So
>>> the points
>>> > could not be compared among themselves.
>>> >
>>> > Also, past data didn't include 3.9 commits because the data gathering
>>> was not
>>> > automated and it didn't run in a long time :(
>>>
>>> Make sense.
>>>
>>> Would it be possible rerun the tests with the current
>>> setup for say the last 1000 revisions or perhaps a subset of these
>>> (e.g. every 10th revision) to try to binary search for the revision which
>>> introduced the change ?
>>>
>>> > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 14:57, M.-A. Lemburg >> > > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hi Pablo,
>>> >
>>> > thanks for pointing this out.
>>> >
>>> > Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
>>> > it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?
>>> >
>>> > Going to the timeline, it seems that the system only has data
>>> > for Oct 14 (today):
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://speed.python.org/timeline/#/?exe=12=regex_dna=1=1000=off=on=on=none
>>> >
>>> > In addition to unpack_sequence, the regex_dna test has slowed
>>> > down a lot compared to Py3.8.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_unpack_sequence.py
>>> >
>>> https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_regex_dna.py
>>> >
>>> > Thanks.
>>> >
>>> > On 14.10.2020 15:16, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>>> > > Hi!
>>> > >
>>> > > I have updated the branch benchmarks in the pyperformance server
>>> and now they
>>> > > include 3.9. There are
>>> > > some benchmarks that are faster but on the other hand some
>>> benchmarks are
>>> > > substantially slower, pointing
>>> > > at a possible performance regression in 3.9 in some aspects. In
>>> particular
>>> > some
>>> > > tests like "unpack sequence" are
>>> > > almost 20% slower. As there are some other tests were 3.9 is
>>> faster, is
>>> > not fair
>>> > > to conclude that 3.9 is slower, but
>>> > > this is something we should look into in my opinion.
>>> > >
>>> > > You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by:
>>> > >
>>> > > * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
>>> > > * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and
>>> "lto-pgo latest
>>> > > in branch '3.8'"
>>> > > * To better read the plot, I would recommend to select a
>>> "Normalization"
>>> > to the
>>> > > 3.8 branch (this is in the top part of the page)
>>> > >and to check the "horizontal" checkbox.
>>> > >
>>> > > These benchmarks are very stable: I have executed them several
>>> times over the
>>> > > weekend yielding the same results and,
>>> > > more importantly, they are being executed on a server specially
>>> prepared to
>>> > > running reproducible benchmarks: CPU affinity,
>>> > > CPU isolation, CPU pinning for NUMA nodes, CPU frequency is
>>> fixed, CPU
>>> > governor
>>> > > set to performance

[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-14 Thread Chris Jerdonek 
MOn Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:03 AM Pablo Galindo Salgado 
wrote:

> > Would it be possible rerun the tests with the current
> setup for say the last 1000 revisions or perhaps a subset of these
> (e.g. every 10th revision) to try to binary search for the revision which
> introduced the change ?
>
> Every run takes 1-2 h so doing 1000 would be certainly time-consuming :)
>

Would it be possible instead to run git-bisect for only a _particular_
benchmark? It seems that may be all that’s needed to track down particular
regressions. Also, if e.g. git-bisect is used it wouldn’t be every e.g.
10th revision but rather O(log(n)) revisions.

—Chris




That's why from now on I am trying to invest in daily builds for master,
> so we can answer that exact question if we detect regressions in the
> future.
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 15:04, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>
>> On 14.10.2020 16:00, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>> >> Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
>> > it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?
>> >
>> > Unfortunately no. The reasons are that that data was misleading because
>> > different points were computed with a different version of
>> pyperformance and
>> > therefore with different packages (and therefore different code). So
>> the points
>> > could not be compared among themselves.
>> >
>> > Also, past data didn't include 3.9 commits because the data gathering
>> was not
>> > automated and it didn't run in a long time :(
>>
>> Make sense.
>>
>> Would it be possible rerun the tests with the current
>> setup for say the last 1000 revisions or perhaps a subset of these
>> (e.g. every 10th revision) to try to binary search for the revision which
>> introduced the change ?
>>
>> > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 14:57, M.-A. Lemburg > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Pablo,
>> >
>> > thanks for pointing this out.
>> >
>> > Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
>> > it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?
>> >
>> > Going to the timeline, it seems that the system only has data
>> > for Oct 14 (today):
>> >
>> >
>> https://speed.python.org/timeline/#/?exe=12=regex_dna=1=1000=off=on=on=none
>> >
>> > In addition to unpack_sequence, the regex_dna test has slowed
>> > down a lot compared to Py3.8.
>> >
>> >
>> https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_unpack_sequence.py
>> >
>> https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_regex_dna.py
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > On 14.10.2020 15:16, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>> > > Hi!
>> > >
>> > > I have updated the branch benchmarks in the pyperformance server
>> and now they
>> > > include 3.9. There are
>> > > some benchmarks that are faster but on the other hand some
>> benchmarks are
>> > > substantially slower, pointing
>> > > at a possible performance regression in 3.9 in some aspects. In
>> particular
>> > some
>> > > tests like "unpack sequence" are
>> > > almost 20% slower. As there are some other tests were 3.9 is
>> faster, is
>> > not fair
>> > > to conclude that 3.9 is slower, but
>> > > this is something we should look into in my opinion.
>> > >
>> > > You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by:
>> > >
>> > > * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
>> > > * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and
>> "lto-pgo latest
>> > > in branch '3.8'"
>> > > * To better read the plot, I would recommend to select a
>> "Normalization"
>> > to the
>> > > 3.8 branch (this is in the top part of the page)
>> > >and to check the "horizontal" checkbox.
>> > >
>> > > These benchmarks are very stable: I have executed them several
>> times over the
>> > > weekend yielding the same results and,
>> > > more importantly, they are being executed on a server specially
>> prepared to
>> > > running reproducible benchmarks: CPU affinity,
>> > > CPU isolation, CPU pinning for NUMA nodes, CPU frequency is
>> fixed, CPU
>> > governor
>> > > set to performance mode, IRQ affinity is
>> > > disabled for the benchmarking CPU nodes...etc so you can trust
>> these numbers.
>> > >
>> > > I kindly suggest for everyone interested in trying to improve the
>> 3.9 (and
>> > > master) performance, to review these benchmarks
>> > > and try to identify the problems and fix them or to find what
>> changes
>> > introduced
>> > > the regressions in the first place. All benchmarks
>> > > are the ones being executed by the pyperformance suite
>> > > (https://github.com/python/pyperformance) so you can execute them
>> > > locally if you need to.
>> > >
>> > > ---
>> > >
>> > > On a related note, I am also working on the speed.python.org
>> > 
>> > >

[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-14 Thread M.-A. Lemburg 
On 14.10.2020 17:59, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> 
> Le 14/10/2020 à 17:25, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
>>
>> Well, there's a trend here:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Those two benchmarks were somewhat faster in Py3.7 and got slower in 3.8
>> and then again in 3.9, so this is more than just an artifact.
> 
> unpack-sequence is a micro-benchmark.  It's useful if you want to
> investigate the cause of a regression witnessed elsewhere (or if you're
> changing things in precisely that part of the interpreter), but it's not
> relevant in itself to measure Python performance.

Since unpacking is done a lot in Python applications, this particular
micro benchmark does have an effect on overall performance and there
was some recent discussion about exactly this part of the code slowing
down (even though the effects were related to macOS only AFAIR).

As with most micro benchmarks, you typically don't see the effect
of one slowdown or speedup in applications. Only if several such
changes come together, you notice a change.

That said, it's still good practice to keep an eye on such performance
regressions and also to improve upon micro benchmarks.

The latter was my main motiviation for writing pybench back in 1997,
which focuses on such micro benchmarks, rather than higher level
benchmarks, where it's much harder to find out why performance
changed.

> regex-dna is a "mini"-benchmark. I suppose someone could look if there
> were any potentially relevant changes done in the regex engine, that
> would explain the changes.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Oct 14 2020)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
 https://www.malemburg.com/
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[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-14 Thread Antoine Pitrou 

Le 14/10/2020 à 17:25, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit :
> 
> Well, there's a trend here:
> 
> [...]
> 
> Those two benchmarks were somewhat faster in Py3.7 and got slower in 3.8
> and then again in 3.9, so this is more than just an artifact.

unpack-sequence is a micro-benchmark.  It's useful if you want to
investigate the cause of a regression witnessed elsewhere (or if you're
changing things in precisely that part of the interpreter), but it's not
relevant in itself to measure Python performance.

regex-dna is a "mini"-benchmark. I suppose someone could look if there
were any potentially relevant changes done in the regex engine, that
would explain the changes.

Regards

Antoine.
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[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-14 Thread Victor Stinner 
I suggest to limit to one "dot" per week, since CodeSpeed (the website
to browse the benchmark results) is somehow limited to 50 dots (it can
display more if you only display a single benchmark).

Previously, it was closer to one "dot" per month which allowed to
display a timeline over 5 years. In my experience, significant
performance changes are rare and only happen once every 3 months. So a
granularity of 1 day is not needed.

We may consider to use the tool "asv" which has a nice web UI to
browse results. It also provides a tool to automatically run a bisect
to identify which commit introduced a speedup or slowdown.

Last time I checked, asv has a simpler way to run benchmarks than
pyperf. It doesn't spawn multiple processes for example. I don't know
if it would be possible to plug pyperf into asv.

Victor

Le mer. 14 oct. 2020 à 17:03, Pablo Galindo Salgado
 a écrit :
>
> > Would it be possible rerun the tests with the current
> setup for say the last 1000 revisions or perhaps a subset of these
> (e.g. every 10th revision) to try to binary search for the revision which
> introduced the change ?
>
> Every run takes 1-2 h so doing 1000 would be certainly time-consuming :)
>
> That's why from now on I am trying to invest in daily builds for master,
> so we can answer that exact question if we detect regressions in the future.
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 15:04, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> On 14.10.2020 16:00, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>> >> Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
>> > it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?
>> >
>> > Unfortunately no. The reasons are that that data was misleading because
>> > different points were computed with a different version of pyperformance 
>> > and
>> > therefore with different packages (and therefore different code). So the 
>> > points
>> > could not be compared among themselves.
>> >
>> > Also, past data didn't include 3.9 commits because the data gathering was 
>> > not
>> > automated and it didn't run in a long time :(
>>
>> Make sense.
>>
>> Would it be possible rerun the tests with the current
>> setup for say the last 1000 revisions or perhaps a subset of these
>> (e.g. every 10th revision) to try to binary search for the revision which
>> introduced the change ?
>>
>> > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 14:57, M.-A. Lemburg > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Pablo,
>> >
>> > thanks for pointing this out.
>> >
>> > Would it be possible to get the data for older runs back, so that
>> > it's easier to find the changes which caused the slowdown ?
>> >
>> > Going to the timeline, it seems that the system only has data
>> > for Oct 14 (today):
>> >
>> > 
>> > https://speed.python.org/timeline/#/?exe=12=regex_dna=1=1000=off=on=on=none
>> >
>> > In addition to unpack_sequence, the regex_dna test has slowed
>> > down a lot compared to Py3.8.
>> >
>> > 
>> > https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_unpack_sequence.py
>> > 
>> > https://github.com/python/pyperformance/blob/master/pyperformance/benchmarks/bm_regex_dna.py
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > On 14.10.2020 15:16, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote:
>> > > Hi!
>> > >
>> > > I have updated the branch benchmarks in the pyperformance server and 
>> > now they
>> > > include 3.9. There are
>> > > some benchmarks that are faster but on the other hand some 
>> > benchmarks are
>> > > substantially slower, pointing
>> > > at a possible performance regression in 3.9 in some aspects. In 
>> > particular
>> > some
>> > > tests like "unpack sequence" are
>> > > almost 20% slower. As there are some other tests were 3.9 is faster, 
>> > is
>> > not fair
>> > > to conclude that 3.9 is slower, but
>> > > this is something we should look into in my opinion.
>> > >
>> > > You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by:
>> > >
>> > > * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
>> > > * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and 
>> > "lto-pgo latest
>> > > in branch '3.8'"
>> > > * To better read the plot, I would recommend to select a 
>> > "Normalization"
>> > to the
>> > > 3.8 branch (this is in the top part of the page)
>> > >and to check the "horizontal" checkbox.
>> > >
>> > > These benchmarks are very stable: I have executed them several times 
>> > over the
>> > > weekend yielding the same results and,
>> > > more importantly, they are being executed on a server specially 
>> > prepared to
>> > > running reproducible benchmarks: CPU affinity,
>> > > CPU isolation, CPU pinning for NUMA nodes, CPU frequency is fixed, 
>> > CPU
>> > governor
>> > > set to performance mode, IRQ affinity is
>> > > disabled for the benchmarking CPU nodes...etc so you can trust these 
>> > numbers.
>> > >
>> > > I kindly suggest for everyone

[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-14 Thread M.-A. Lemburg 
On 14.10.2020 16:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Le 14/10/2020 à 15:16, Pablo Galindo Salgado a écrit :
>> Hi!
>>
>> I have updated the branch benchmarks in the pyperformance server and now
>> they include 3.9. There are
>> some benchmarks that are faster but on the other hand some benchmarks
>> are substantially slower, pointing
>> at a possible performance regression in 3.9 in some aspects. In
>> particular some tests like "unpack sequence" are
>> almost 20% slower. As there are some other tests were 3.9 is faster, is
>> not fair to conclude that 3.9 is slower, but
>> this is something we should look into in my opinion.
>>
>> You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by:
>>
>> * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
>> * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and "lto-pgo
>> latest in branch '3.8'"
>> * To better read the plot, I would recommend to select a "Normalization"
>> to the 3.8 branch (this is in the top part of the page)
>>    and to check the "horizontal" checkbox.
> Those numbers tell me that it's a wash.  I wouldn't worry about a small
> regression on a micro- or mini-benchmark while the overall picture is
> stable.

Well, there's a trend here:



Those two benchmarks were somewhat faster in Py3.7 and got slower in 3.8 and
then again in 3.9, so this is more than just an artifact.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Oct 14 2020)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Support ...https://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Product Development ...https://consulting.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   https://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
 https://www.malemburg.com/

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[Python-Dev] Re: [python-committers] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-14 Thread Pablo Galindo Salgado 
>  I wouldn't worry about a small regression on a micro- or mini-benchmark
while the overall picture is
stable.

Absolutely, I agree is not something to *worry* but I think it makes sense
to investigate as
the possible fix may be trivial. Part of the reason I wanted to recompute
them was because
the micro-benchmarks published in the What's new of 3.9 were confusing a
lot of users that
were thinking if 3.9 was slower.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 15:14, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

>
> Le 14/10/2020 à 15:16, Pablo Galindo Salgado a écrit :
> > Hi!
> >
> > I have updated the branch benchmarks in the pyperformance server and now
> > they include 3.9. There are
> > some benchmarks that are faster but on the other hand some benchmarks
> > are substantially slower, pointing
> > at a possible performance regression in 3.9 in some aspects. In
> > particular some tests like "unpack sequence" are
> > almost 20% slower. As there are some other tests were 3.9 is faster, is
> > not fair to conclude that 3.9 is slower, but
> > this is something we should look into in my opinion.
> >
> > You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by:
> >
> > * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/
> > * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and "lto-pgo
> > latest in branch '3.8'"
> > * To better read the plot, I would recommend to select a "Normalization"
> > to the 3.8 branch (this is in the top part of the page)
> >and to check the "horizontal" checkbox.
>
> Those numbers tell me that it's a wash.  I wouldn't worry about a small
> regression on a micro- or mini-benchmark while the overall picture is
> stable.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
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