Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Brendan Barnwell wrote: > On 2018-05-21 12:11, Chris Angelico wrote: >> >> Much more useful would be to look at languages that (a) work in a >> field where programmers have ample freedom to choose between >> languages, and (b) have been

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On 2018-05-21 12:11, Chris Angelico wrote: Much more useful would be to look at languages that (a) work in a field where programmers have ample freedom to choose between languages, and (b) have been around long enough to actually demonstrate that people want to use them. Look through the Stack

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

I don't know what to do with this thread. I enjoyed reading Mike's survey of what other languages do. I also enjoyed Chris's survey of what some other languages do. Then the thread veered off into several unproductive directions at once: a mini-tutorial for Rebol (or Red?), and endless bickering

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 7:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 09:43:45AM -0700, Mike Miller wrote: >> To clarify there were three main criteria, and one minor. Newer, >> popular/becoming industry standard, and designed to address shortcomings in >>

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Mike Miller wrote: > > On 2018-05-21 16:40, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > Consider the link Chris sent above: > > https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted > > The top six coincide with my list, plus

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On 2018-05-21 16:40, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Consider the link Chris sent above: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted The top six coincide with my list, plus TypeScript (superset of JS) and Python. I'm pretty happy with those chosen, considering.

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On 2018-05-21 16:50, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Your conclusion does not follow even from the limited sample of They're not going in the direction of assignment-expressions everywhere, but rather one built in to the if/while statement. Coffeescript could certainly be a good candidate, though

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 10:00:01AM -0700, Mike Miller wrote: > It is true that := handles more (perhaps less-common) use cases, but > subjectively it is not as "Pythonic." Also doesn't appear to be the > direction the surveyed languages are going. Your conclusion does not follow even from the

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 09:43:45AM -0700, Mike Miller wrote: > To clarify there were three main criteria, and one minor. Newer, > popular/becoming industry standard, and designed to address shortcomings in > previous generations. Finally, the limit of my energy when already working > on a

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

If the ability to capture a subexpression is given up on, then we are are down to just capturing the value of the predicate in if statements. In loops, it is only the predicate and iteration index. If you mashup `if` and `def`, you end up with this mess: if get_something() def (value):

Re: [Python-ideas] String and bytes bitwise operations

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:22:17AM -0700, Chris Barker wrote: > On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 6:52 AM, Steven D'Aprano > wrote: > > > Philosophical arguments about the nature of computer memory aside, byte > > objects in Python are collections of ints. > > > > not when you start

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

Chris makes a lot of good points regarding *which* languages to look at, but it seems like that line of enquiry is unlikely to suggest anything more than it has so far, especially if we're limiting it to languages everyone has heard of. They either use a keyword, an operator, don't support the

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 2:43 AM, Mike Miller wrote: > To clarify there were three main criteria, and one minor. Newer, > popular/becoming industry standard, and designed to address shortcomings in > previous generations. Finally, the limit of my energy when already

Re: [Python-ideas] String and bytes bitwise operations

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 6:52 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Philosophical arguments about the nature of computer memory aside, byte > objects in Python are collections of ints. > not when you start talking about bit-wise operations :-) If a "byte" in python was an integer,

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

To clarify there were three main criteria, and one minor. Newer, popular/becoming industry standard, and designed to address shortcomings in previous generations. Finally, the limit of my energy when already working on a project. I also should have provided the link to the previous

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

> > for v in iter(get_something, INCOVENIENT_SENTINEL): > do_something(v) > > There are many ways round my use case, all of them inelegant. That has to > be one of the less comprehensible alternatives. In for-loops (because they include an assignment already) we can improve this with more

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On 21/05/18 13:22, Juancarlo Añez wrote: while ((v = get_something()) != INCONVENIENT_SENTINEL) do_something(v); The current pattern in Python would be something like: v = get_something() while v != INCONVENIENT_SENTINEL: do_something(v) v = get_something() Actually

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On 21/05/18 12:29, Daniel Moisset wrote: On 21 May 2018 at 12:05, Rhodri James wrote: Thanks for the analysis, but I'm afraid I must disagree with your recommendation. It was the thought I first had when Chris came out with his first draft of the PEP several months

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

Sorry, hit send by accident. I meant to say: do_something(v) *if* v != INCONVENIENT_SENTINEL *else break* -- Carl Smith carl.in...@gmail.com On 21 May 2018 at 13:37, Carl Smith wrote: > v = get_something() > > while v != INCONVENIENT_SENTINEL: > > do_something(v)

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

v = get_something() while v != INCONVENIENT_SENTINEL: do_something(v) v = get_something() I'd personally go with: while True: v = get_something() if v != INCONVENIENT_SENTINEL: break do_something(v) But it's not much different. I'd really like to be

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

> while ((v = get_something()) != INCONVENIENT_SENTINEL) > do_something(v); > The current pattern in Python would be something like: v = get_something() while v != INCONVENIENT_SENTINEL: do_something(v) v = get_something() With "as" allowed in "while", they pattern might be:

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On Mon, May 21, 2018, 03:58 Rhodri James wrote: > On 20/05/18 06:19, Matt Arcidy wrote: > > On Sat, May 19, 2018, 11:07 Kirill Balunov > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> I think I have a very strong argument "why are not others valid" - > Because > >>

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On 21 May 2018 at 12:05, Rhodri James wrote: > > Thanks for the analysis, but I'm afraid I must disagree with your > recommendation. It was the thought I first had when Chris came out with > his first draft of the PEP several months ago, but it's not enough to cope > with

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On 19/05/18 01:54, Mike Miller wrote: In short, extend the "if/elif", "while", and comprehension to:     if pattern.search(data) as match:     …     while read_next_item() as value:     … Thanks for the analysis, but I'm afraid I must disagree with your recommendation. It was

Re: [Python-ideas] Modern language design survey for "assign and compare" statements

On 20/05/18 06:19, Matt Arcidy wrote: On Sat, May 19, 2018, 11:07 Kirill Balunov wrote: I think I have a very strong argument "why are not others valid" - Because already three months have passed and among 1300+ messages there was not a single real example where