Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

When did you last read the Dijkstra paper. It's short and he explains very well why exactly all the constructs you mention are unlike Goto. This isn't a proposal to subroutines, it's a proposal for subroutines in which all lexically scoped variables are implicitly nonlocal. That's basically Goto,

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 08:35:35PM -0400, David Mertz wrote: > Goto considered harmful. Fortunately this proposal has nothing to do with goto. Elazar is correct that its a kind of subroutine call, just like an ordinary function call, except the scoping rules are different. And for the record,

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

[Jacob Solinsky] > these local variables are used quite often in the mutate methods, of which > there are several dozen, so storing them by default saves a lot of typing. There are several things you can do to alleviate the typing problem: 1) Get an IDE that has auto-complete. I recommend

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

Alexandre Brault wrote: On 2018-08-15 03:32 PM, MRAB wrote: On 2018-08-15 18:27, MRAB wrote: > While we're at it, what's the only creature that's known commonly and only by its scientific name? I would have guessed Tyrannosaurus Rex I would have thought pretty much any dinosaur. -- Greg

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 01:52:27PM -0500, Jacob Solinsky wrote: > -Jumping to a function as opposed to calling a function > > When a function is jumped to, it inherits the variables in the > caller’s local namespace and is free to modify them or add new local > variables, unlike a normal

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

I have no opinion on the proposal, but the equation with goto is dead wrong. Yes, technically this is a goto. But so is a regular function call. Jumping to a function makes thd code _easier_ to reason about, statically, not harder. When you call an arbitrary function, you have no idea whether it

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

How about just https://homepages.cwi.nl/~storm/teaching/reader/Dijkstra68.pdf On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 5:38 PM David Mertz wrote: > Hmm.. link broke. Is this right? > > >

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

Hmm.. link broke. Is this right? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=web=j=https://homepages.cwi.nl/~storm/teaching/reader/Dijkstra68.pdf=2ahUKEwi8lqHYqfDcAhXImOAKHeAzDmsQFjAEegQIBhAB=AOvVaw1CZug_36-PbevItYXTb7SR On Wed, Aug 15, 2018, 8:35 PM David Mertz wrote: > Goto considered harmful. > > >

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

Goto considered harmful. https://homepages.cwi.nl/~storm/teaching/reader/Dijkstra68.pdf=2ahUKEwi8lqHYqfDcAhXImOAKHeAzDmsQFjAEegQIBhAB=AOvVaw1CZug_36-PbevItYXTb7SR On Wed, Aug 15, 2018, 3:52 PM Jacob Solinsky wrote: > -Jumping to a function as opposed to calling a function > > When a function

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Jacob Solinsky wrote: > What I had hoped to do was use a preamble code block to collect all of the > most common queries called by the mutate function in the local namespace, > for example > > C = 'bpgkdtszSZjCmnywh' > M = 'mn' > > > class Morpheme: > #stuff >

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

What I had hoped to do was use a preamble code block to collect all of the most common queries called by the mutate function in the local namespace, for example C = 'bpgkdtszSZjCmnywh' M = 'mn' class Morpheme: #stuff def preamble(self): ps = self.precedingmorpheme.form ss =

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to make sure you saw my original misplaced post: Jumping into functions that mutate variables in the calling scope sounds a lot like "GoTo" which is notorious for leading to code that's very hard to reason

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

[Chris Angelico] > Drop the word "function" and it's no longer about a goto - it's about > a block of code that can be deposited into another context. The only context I've used goto is in a TI-83 scientific calculator, but in that, it was just about jumping around to different labels in code

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 7:40 AM, Abe Dillon wrote: > Jumping into functions that mutate variables in the calling scope sounds a > lot like "GoTo" which is notorious for leading to code that's very hard to > reason about. Your functions would implicitly require that you assign > variables in the

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

Jumping into functions that mutate variables in the calling scope sounds a lot like "GoTo" which is notorious for leading to code that's very hard to reason about. Your functions would implicitly require that you assign variables in the calling

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 4:52 AM, Jacob Solinsky wrote: > -Jumping to a function as opposed to calling a function > > When a function is jumped to, it inherits the variables in the caller’s local > namespace and is free to modify them or add new local variables, unlike a > normal function call,

Re: [Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

Hi Jacob Thank you for your problem. I'll focus on your simple example (lightly edited for clarity) > Let foo(a, b) be the syntax to call foo(a, b), and foo(a, b)% be the syntax > to jump to foo(a, b) > > c = 5 > > def foo(a): > return a + c > > def bar(a, c): > return foo(a) >

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

On 2018-08-15 03:32 PM, MRAB wrote: > On 2018-08-15 18:27, MRAB wrote: >> On 2018-08-15 09:17, Jonathan Fine wrote: >>> Steve Barnes and Greg Ewing wrote: >>> >   * A dinosaur is specifically an extinct terrible (formerly > considered) > lizard Which technically is not

[Python-ideas] Jump to function as an an alternative to call function

-Jumping to a function as opposed to calling a function When a function is jumped to, it inherits the variables in the caller’s local namespace and is free to modify them or add new local variables, unlike a normal function call, wherein the caller’s namespace is inaccesible. At present, the

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

On 2018-08-15 18:27, MRAB wrote: On 2018-08-15 09:17, Jonathan Fine wrote: Steve Barnes and Greg Ewing wrote: * A dinosaur is specifically an extinct terrible (formerly considered) lizard Which technically is not a lizard. I can't resist. Puffinus puffinus is the scientific name for

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

On 14 August 2018 at 16:42, Michael Selik wrote: > In my own experience teaching, I find that many concepts are easier to > introduce if I avoid the Python jargon until after I've explained what it > does. [...] > "until after" != "forever". A jargon might be just an acronym, a word or few

Re: [Python-ideas] Python docs page: In what ways is None special

Hi Thank you all, for the kind words and appreciation, and the comments and suggestions. I have time now to respond to one comment. Please note that is just my opinion, and your opinion may be different. Rhodri James prefers

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

On 2018-08-15 09:17, Jonathan Fine wrote: Steve Barnes and Greg Ewing wrote: * A dinosaur is specifically an extinct terrible (formerly considered) lizard Which technically is not a lizard. I can't resist. Puffinus puffinus is the scientific name for (drum roll) no, not the Atlantic

Re: [Python-ideas] Python docs: page: In what ways in None special

Since I already spent a bunch of time on this, I did a PR: https://github.com/jfine2358/py-jfine2358/pull/2 further discussion should probably be in that PR / repo -CHB On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 9:02 AM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal < chris.bar...@noaa.gov> wrote: > > None is keyword, and just

Re: [Python-ideas] Python docs: page: In what ways in None special

> None is keyword, and just like any other keyword, it can't be re-bound. >> it's only a keyword because Python doesn't otherwise have a way of creating >> non-rebindable names. It's purpose is to represent the singular object of >> NoneType, and in that sense it's a literal as much as [] or

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

Jonathan Fine wrote: Puffinus puffinus is the scientific name for Puff the Magic Dragon? -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct:

Re: [Python-ideas] Python docs: page: In what ways in None special

On 15/08/18 00:09, Chris Barker wrote: On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Rhodri James wrote: On 'None is a constant': Erm. I think you've got carried away with simplifying this and gone down a blind alley. None is a literal, and like any other literal can't be rebound. no, it's not --

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

On 15/08/18 06:21, Steve Barnes wrote: The English language has, historically, always borrowed, co-opted and sometimes perverted words from other languages to allow distinct concepts to be expressed concisely - which I personally, (admittedly as a native speaker), find rather useful. I think

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

Steve Barnes and Greg Ewing wrote: >> * A dinosaur is specifically an extinct terrible (formerly considered) >> lizard > > > Which technically is not a lizard. I can't resist. Puffinus puffinus is the scientific name for (drum roll) no, not the Atlantic (or common) Puffin but (off-pitch

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

Steve Barnes wrote: * Brakes are used to apply breaking, I hope they actually apply braking, not breaking. :-) * A dinosaur is specifically an extinct terrible (formerly considered) lizard Which technically is not a lizard. -- Greg ___

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018, 12:06 AM Stefan Behnel wrote: > Michael Selik schrieb am 14.08.2018 um 21:42: > > This is supported by education research. Some light Googling found a > > study on the topic [0] that is consistent with my own observations. > > OTx2, and no offence, but … this is supported

Re: [Python-ideas] Does jargon make learning more difficult?

Michael Selik schrieb am 14.08.2018 um 21:42: > This is supported by education research. Some light Googling found a > study on the topic [0] that is consistent with my own observations. OTx2, and no offence, but … this is supported by research as well. People tend to search just long enough to