[Python-ideas] Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning
value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread.

It opens the gap for people who are not concerned about development
jump in the game shifting the focus away while nurturing a culture of thrash
I mean you tend to ignore threads from python-dev and python-ideas which
is not probably why you subscribed in the first place

This is not the first time i am saying that you can fly around the world on
official
Python mailing lists. But it's regrettable that it's the first time i am
seeing people
telling that they should educate others and things like that. It can be
based on the
argument and circle around it but personal attacks are off limit

If this was a Github issue, i don't think you list moderators would have
dragged it
around that much. Worst case scenario, someone would have been pinged and
the issue taken care of. A PR or closing and you are done.

I raised the issue of closing a mail thread before and the impractical
nature of
it was discussed but maybe warnings and continued posting after the warning
results in ban can be enforced

And it's annoying that it got dragged to two mailing lists. I respect
Python people
and i am always eager to follow some C code discussions, deprecating this C
API
etc. It's a new world for me.

Maybe active list members should sign a convention or a vetting process can
be setup
before we can discuss it on the lists. Not ideal but might be useful.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
compileralchemy  | blog

github 
Mauritius


On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 8:11 PM David Mertz  wrote:

> The commit message is simply silly. It introduces numerous contentious and
> false claims that have nothing whatsoever to do with the small wording
> change. It misunderstands how language, culture, history, and indeed white
> supremacism, work.
>
> I would recommend amending the commit message.
>
> The underlying change itself is reasonable, and to my mind a small
> improvement. There was unnecessary specificity in using Strunk and White as
> reference, and not, say, William Zinsser's _On Writing Well_, which is
> almost as well known. In the concrete, it would be exceedingly rare for
> these to provide conflicting advice on a specific code comment.
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:34 AM Richard Damon 
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/29/20 6:22 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
>> > and describes the
>> > old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the
>> > problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone
>> > intentionally keeping it there.
>>
>> I would say that say that I have seen the term "relic" being used as a
>> 'weaponized' word to imply that the old thing WAS there intentionally as
>> a repressive measure. I am not saying that this usage was intended to be
>> used that way, but just as the old wording was taken as offensive to
>> some due to implication, I can see that message as offensive to others
>> due to implication, all because some people are easy to offend.
>>
>> --
>> Richard Damon
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>
>
> --
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> not-yet born.  Vampiric capital and undead corporate persons abuse
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> become abortifacients against new conceptions.
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[Python-ideas] Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[André Roberge]

Adding my voice to those that ask for such discussions be stopped ... and,
if at all possible, be snipped in the bud and prevented from occurring in
the future.

More below.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:51 PM Ricky Teachey  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 10:51 AM Giampaolo Rodola' 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And what's the goal anyway? Make us all feel guilty, create yet another
>> heated discussion, widen divisions, wait for the occasional folks who dare
>> to speak up against this vitriol and kick them out? And then what? What is
>> the plan here exactly? Don't you folks realize this is a technical forum?
>>
>> ...

> Please, stop this.
>>
>> -
>> Giampaolo - gmpy.dev 
>>
>>
> The above response is how I feel about this. There is palpable fear right
> now that anyone who disagrees that these political types of discussion have
> a place in the professional world will be ostracized. I fear it even
> writing this short email. And that fear is more than warranted.
>
> The laudable goals of inclusion in the python community, which I support,
> are not being served by bringing these politically motivated changes-- a
> perfect example of which is this latest claim that S, an utterly
> inoffensive English language standard that itself has nothing to do with
> white supremacy, is a "relic of white supremacy" that has been place for
> two (or nearly two) decades in the core python founding PEPs, etc., and the
> absurd claim that it is hurtful in some way to non-white people, and these
> sorts of claims not only going unchallenged but even in some ways
> encouraged at the top of the leadership-- to the fore. It is divisive, and
> it makes me want to not want to be a part of the community because of 1.
> fear that I will pay dearly if I speak up (happily I'm not a developer
> although I've thought about a career change, but probably I can kiss that
> goodbye after this email) and 2. it is extremely unpleasant to have no
> realm of life-- not technical/professional, not sports, not even church--
> in which the American politics that permeate all of life these days (and
> seems to be reaching its tendrils across the water into other countries)
> can be put to the side.
>
> I'm tired. Please, please think about how we can make the focus of this
> community be technical considerations.
>

One of my proudest/happiest moments as a general Python contributor was
when I was nominated as a PSF Fellow in 2010.  In 2013, frustrated at
similar social/political discussions taking over some Python forum, and not
having the mental fortitude to speak up, I quietly asked for my status to
be converted to Emeritus (
https://www.python.org/psf/members/#emeritus-fellows) and withdrew for a
few years. This time, rather than be completely silent, I feel like I must
speak (for myself, and possibly for others) and ask to please stop these
non-technical digressions which only bring divisions.

André Roberge





>
> Rick.
>
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[Python-ideas] Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Ricky Teachey]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 10:51 AM Giampaolo Rodola' 
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:34 PM Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden  wrote:
>> > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the
>> change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the
>> documentation clear and concise. Use of such language is certainly
>> regrettable, since it carries with it the implication that the Python
>> developer community has somehow been wilfully sanctioning "relics of white
>> supremacy" up until the change was made.
>> >
>> > There certainly is a place in tech for politics, as I have argued many
>> times, and I am sure nobody wishes to continue to use language that might
>> be offensive to readers. But I would suggest that the politics can safely
>> be omitted from commit messages, since they can only properly be fully
>> addressed in the conversation about the PR in advance. The wording of the
>> commit message has the appearance (probably specious) of wanting to rub
>> former misdeeds in the face of a largely innocent community, and that is
>> the principal reason I found it distasteful and unnecessary.
>>
>> I just re-read the commit message, and I think you're being
>> oversensitive and imagining things that aren't there. The actual
>> commit message is written in a straightforward and factual way, and
>> spends special effort on *absolving* the community of this kind of
>> guilt.
>>
>
> "The community" has nothing to be absolved of, "Strunk & White" has
> nothing to do with white supremacy and there is no guilt. If you feel
> guilty because you're white then that's your problem. I don't feel guilty
> for being white, the same way a black person should not feel guilty for
> being black. And I have literally ZERO excuses to make to you or anybody
> else in here because I'm white. Assuming guilt based on the color of your
> skin and constantly attacking that specific group because of that is
> racist. It's that simple. I find it astonishing how some people here don't
> seem to realize that (or pretend not to).
>
> And what's the goal anyway? Make us all feel guilty, create yet another
> heated discussion, widen divisions, wait for the occasional folks who dare
> to speak up against this vitriol and kick them out? And then what? What is
> the plan here exactly? Don't you folks realize this is a technical forum?
> Don't you understand how inappropriate it is to constantly bring up these
> kinds of messages up here, and force people to either witness them silently
> for fear of repercussions, or to engage in the discussion and risk paying
> the consequences in terms of work / hiring / career / status / reputation
> etc.? Because that's what happens, and we all know it. This is a very
> public forum and we can all be traced back to here. There are professionals
> here, people who go to conferences and/or make a living out of Python, who
> pay the rent and support their family with it, and that don't want to be
> put in this position.
>
> It does not scale. It will never scale. Because whether we like it or not
> we have to coexist together in this virtual space, including with people we
> don't like. And this is why it is such a good idea to leave politics out of
> the door and only stay focused on Python. We will still have different
> opinions and occasional clashes, but as long as they are technical they
> will be genuine, prolific and everything will be fine as it was before
> "this" started (I've been reading this list for 12 years now). Discussing
> politics, on the other hand, will only keep bringing conflict over and over
> again. There's tons of proof of this already, and I can't envision a
> different outcome in the long run. Because most of us are not OK with being
> put against a wall and being blamed for "supremacy", "guilt", "privilege"
> or whatever term you have in your jargon. I certainly am not. Furthermore,
> that jargon makes no sense outside of the US and it's just ridiculous. I'm
> European, am split between living here and in Asia, and I can guarantee you
> that much.
>
> Please, stop this.
>
> -
> Giampaolo - gmpy.dev 
>
>
The above response is how I feel about this. There is palpable fear right
now that anyone who disagrees that these political types of discussion have
a place in the professional world will be ostracized. I fear it even
writing this short email. And that fear is more than warranted.

The laudable goals of inclusion in the python community, which I support,
are not being served by bringing these politically motivated changes-- a
perfect example of which is this latest claim that S, an utterly
inoffensive English language standard that itself has nothing to do with
white supremacy, is a "relic of white supremacy" that has been place for
two (or nearly two) decades in the core python founding PEPs, etc., and the
absurd claim that it is hurtful in some way to non-white people, 

[Python-ideas] Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Soni L.]

On 2020-06-29 11:46 a.m., Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:



On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:34 PM Nathaniel Smith > wrote:


On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden mailto:st...@holdenweb.com>> wrote:
> The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details
of the change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is
making the documentation clear and concise. Use of such language
is certainly regrettable, since it carries with it the implication
that the Python developer community has somehow been wilfully
sanctioning "relics of white supremacy" up until the change was made.
>
> There certainly is a place in tech for politics, as I have
argued many times, and I am sure nobody wishes to continue to use
language that might be offensive to readers. But I would suggest
that the politics can safely be omitted from commit messages,
since they can only properly be fully addressed in the
conversation about the PR in advance. The wording of the commit
message has the appearance (probably specious) of wanting to rub
former misdeeds in the face of a largely innocent community, and
that is the principal reason I found it distasteful and unnecessary.

I just re-read the commit message, and I think you're being
oversensitive and imagining things that aren't there. The actual
commit message is written in a straightforward and factual way, and
spends special effort on *absolving* the community of this kind of
guilt.


"The community" has nothing to be absolved of, "Strunk & White" has 
nothing to do with white supremacy and there is no guilt. If you feel 
guilty because you're white then that's your problem. I don't feel 
guilty for being white, the same way a black person should not feel 
guilty for being black. And I have literally ZERO excuses to make to 
you or anybody else in here because I'm white. Assuming guilt based on 
the color of your skin and constantly attacking that specific group 
because of that is racist. It's that simple. I find it astonishing how 
some people here don't seem to realize that (or pretend not to).


And what's the goal anyway? Make us all feel guilty, create yet 
another heated discussion, widen divisions, wait for the occasional 
folks who dare to speak up against this vitriol and kick them out? And 
then what? What is the plan here exactly? Don't you folks realize this 
is a technical forum? Don't you understand how inappropriate it is to 
constantly bring up these kinds of messages up here, and force people 
to either witness them silently for fear of repercussions, or to 
engage in the discussion and risk paying the consequences in terms of 
work / hiring / career / status / reputation etc.? Because that's what 
happens, and we all know it. This is a very public forum and we can 
all be traced back to here. There are professionals here, people who 
go to conferences and/or make a living out of Python, who pay the rent 
and support their family with it, and that don't want to be put in 
this position.


It does not scale. It will never scale. Because whether we like it or 
not we have to coexist together in this virtual space, including with 
people we don't like. And this is why it is such a good idea to leave 
politics out of the door and only stay focused on Python. We will 
still have different opinions and occasional clashes, but as long as 
they are technical they will be genuine, prolific and everything will 
be fine as it was before "this" started (I've been reading this list 
for 12 years now). Discussing politics, on the other hand, will only 
keep bringing conflict over and over again. There's tons of proof of 
this already, and I can't envision a different outcome in the long 
run. Because most of us are not OK with being put against a wall and 
being blamed for "supremacy", "guilt", "privilege" or whatever term 
you have in your jargon. I certainly am not. Furthermore, that jargon 
makes no sense outside of the US and it's just ridiculous. I'm 
European, am split between living here and in Asia, and I can 
guarantee you that much.


Please, stop this.


If your job depends on you ignoring white supremacy, it's likely that 
your workplace is unethical. Personally I'd rather starve than uphold 
white supremacy, but that's just me.


Do think about it, tho.



-
Giampaolo - gmpy.dev 


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[Python-ideas] Re: [Python-Dev] Re: Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

[Giampaolo Rodola']

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:34 PM Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden  wrote:
> > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the
> change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the
> documentation clear and concise. Use of such language is certainly
> regrettable, since it carries with it the implication that the Python
> developer community has somehow been wilfully sanctioning "relics of white
> supremacy" up until the change was made.
> >
> > There certainly is a place in tech for politics, as I have argued many
> times, and I am sure nobody wishes to continue to use language that might
> be offensive to readers. But I would suggest that the politics can safely
> be omitted from commit messages, since they can only properly be fully
> addressed in the conversation about the PR in advance. The wording of the
> commit message has the appearance (probably specious) of wanting to rub
> former misdeeds in the face of a largely innocent community, and that is
> the principal reason I found it distasteful and unnecessary.
>
> I just re-read the commit message, and I think you're being
> oversensitive and imagining things that aren't there. The actual
> commit message is written in a straightforward and factual way, and
> spends special effort on *absolving* the community of this kind of
> guilt.
>

"The community" has nothing to be absolved of, "Strunk & White" has nothing
to do with white supremacy and there is no guilt. If you feel guilty
because you're white then that's your problem. I don't feel guilty for
being white, the same way a black person should not feel guilty for being
black. And I have literally ZERO excuses to make to you or anybody else in
here because I'm white. Assuming guilt based on the color of your skin and
constantly attacking that specific group because of that is racist. It's
that simple. I find it astonishing how some people here don't seem to
realize that (or pretend not to).

And what's the goal anyway? Make us all feel guilty, create yet another
heated discussion, widen divisions, wait for the occasional folks who dare
to speak up against this vitriol and kick them out? And then what? What is
the plan here exactly? Don't you folks realize this is a technical forum?
Don't you understand how inappropriate it is to constantly bring up these
kinds of messages up here, and force people to either witness them silently
for fear of repercussions, or to engage in the discussion and risk paying
the consequences in terms of work / hiring / career / status / reputation
etc.? Because that's what happens, and we all know it. This is a very
public forum and we can all be traced back to here. There are professionals
here, people who go to conferences and/or make a living out of Python, who
pay the rent and support their family with it, and that don't want to be
put in this position.

It does not scale. It will never scale. Because whether we like it or not
we have to coexist together in this virtual space, including with people we
don't like. And this is why it is such a good idea to leave politics out of
the door and only stay focused on Python. We will still have different
opinions and occasional clashes, but as long as they are technical they
will be genuine, prolific and everything will be fine as it was before
"this" started (I've been reading this list for 12 years now). Discussing
politics, on the other hand, will only keep bringing conflict over and over
again. There's tons of proof of this already, and I can't envision a
different outcome in the long run. Because most of us are not OK with being
put against a wall and being blamed for "supremacy", "guilt", "privilege"
or whatever term you have in your jargon. I certainly am not. Furthermore,
that jargon makes no sense outside of the US and it's just ridiculous. I'm
European, am split between living here and in Asia, and I can guarantee you
that much.

Please, stop this.

-
Giampaolo - gmpy.dev 
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