Carl Banks wrote:
On Mar 26, 10:11 am, Andy Dingley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 26 Mar, 14:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
what are the advantages of using Python for
creating number crunching apps over Fortran??
If you have to ask, you've not experienced enough Fortran to
Howdy,
I'm a college student and for one of we are writing programs to
numerically compute the parameters of antenna arrays. I decided to use
Python to code up my programs. Up to now I haven't had a problem,
however we have a problem set where we are creating a large matrix and
finding it's
robert wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
Howdy,
I'm a college student and for one of we are writing programs to
numerically compute the parameters of antenna arrays. I decided to use
Python to code up my programs. Up to now I haven't had a problem,
however we have a problem set where we are creating
Does anyone know of any python scripts that can help me automatically
navigate through some forms so I can schedule the download the file at the
end of all the questions?
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*table* value to a relation; i.e., wiping out the entire
contents of the relation and replacing it with a whole new set of
tuples. Your assignment is indeed less powerful than DML, whereas
Marshall's assignment is more powerful than DML.
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, then I would need someone to explain how to
accomplish the same goals in the new relational language; i.e. it would
need some way of expressing transformations of relations, not just
complete replacement of them with new relations that are assumed to
appear out of thin air.
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of
the abstraction boundary.
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. That is interesting and worth considering, but is a
different conversation; and I don't know how to start it.
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possible to consider aliasing on higher levels as well; it's just
not possible to point out the lack of aliasing for higher levels of
abstraction, and thus conclude that no aliasing exists. Aliasing is
still possible for entities within those layers of abstraction.
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in the application on any given assignment. Nevertheless,
the re-evaluation of the invariant still needs to be done.
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David Hopwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
If checked by execution, yes. In which case, I am trying to get my head
around how it's any more true to say that functional languages are
compilable postconditions than to say the same of imperative languages.
A postcondition
calculus, the simplest of all generally studied type systems.
What is being named here is the overcoming of a limitation that
programming language designers imposed upon themselves, whether from not
understanding the theoretical research or not believing it important, I
don't know.
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a particular bit in x?
I don't know about Joachim, but yes, I would.
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to say that postconditions allow you to express
algorithms?
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does imply identity, but identity doesn't imply
aliasing. Same difference.
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Darren New [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
Unless I'm missing your point, I disagree with your disagreement.
Mutability only makes sense because of object identity (in the generic
sense; no OO going on here).
Depends what you mean by object.
int x = 6; int y = 5; x = y
postconditions than to say the same of imperative languages.
In both cases, some statement is asserted through a description of a
means of computing it. There may be a distinction worth making here,
but I'm missing it so far.
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Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
Darren New [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
Unless I'm missing your point, I disagree with your disagreement.
Mutability only makes sense because of object identity (in the generic
sense; no OO going on here
that avoids mention of pointer -- as
anyone else.
I don't see any aliasing in this example either.
Actually, this was probably a bad example. Let's stick to the others
involving relationships between tuples.
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could go either way. There is no property that a program would
rationally desire to *require* be checked at runtime; that would only
occur because the compiler doesn't know how to check it at compile time.
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?
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Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No what happens if right here you code
b := 16;
Does that again change the type of b? Or is that an illegal
instruction, because b has the local type of (18..22)?
It arranges
Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
Going back to my
handy copy of Pierce's book again, he claims that range checking is a
solved problem in theory, and the only remaining work is in how to
integrate it into a program without prohibitive amounts of type
annotation
to its extreme and produce a
usable language as a result. I don't know that it's impossible for this
sort of thing to be done in a usable Java-like language, but in any
case, the way to accomplish it is not obvious.
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Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
But this starts to look bad, because we used to have this nice property
called encapsulation. To work around that, we'd need to make one of a
few choices: (a) give up encapsulation, which isn't too happy; (b) rely
on type inference
is to do what's possible without
reaching the point of undecidability. Runtime support for checking the
correctness of type ascriptions certainly comes in handy when you run
into those limits.
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Darren New [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
// Inside this block, a has type int{17..21} and b has type
// int{18..22}
No what happens if right here you code
b := 16;
Does that again change the type of b? Or is that an illegal
instruction, because b has
runtime-checked type ascriptions to
prevent it from becoming impossible to write software. That's not my
idea of a usable language.
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of expressions.
Ah. I meant complete enough to accomplish the goal in this subthread,
which was to ensure that the compiler knows when a particular int
variable is guaranteed to be greater than 18, and when it is not.
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values
being checked for correctness at runtime.
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think there might be, but I've
never been able to find a solid example of one.
This seems to depend on the specific concept of equivalence of programs
that you have in mind.
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, the sufficiently powerful type system would need to have rules so
that an if statemement creates a modified type environment to take that
into account. This is different from a runtime type check, in that you
are writing explicit code that provides correct program behavior in
either case.)
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) to write buggy programs. Gödel!
I agree. I never said that the ideal point is achievable... only that
there is a convergence toward it. (In some cases, that convergence may
have stalled at some equilibrium point because of the costs of being
near that point.)
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\ is lambda, and Y is the fixed point combinator?
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that someone would solve
that problem with these techniques starts to seem strange.
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in
the static and dynamic sense.
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Pascal Costanza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
Of course zero is not appropriate as a second argument to the division
operator! I can't possibly see how you could claim that it is. The
only reasonable statement worth making is that there doesn't exist a
type system
George Neuner gneuner2/@comcast.net wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:28:22 -0600, Chris Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
George Neuner gneuner2/@comcast.net wrote:
Undecidability can always be avoided by adding annotations, but of
course that would be gross overkill in the case of index type
, the example may have seemed arbitrary to you, and it was in some
sense arbitrary.
Arbitrary is good. One of the pesky things that keeps getting in the
way here is the intuition attached to the word type that makes
everyone think string or integer.
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Pierce many times this
thread), and then infer the definition of types and type errors from
there. Because a solid definition has been given first for a type
system without invoking the concepts of types or type errors, this
avoids being circular.
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meta-programming in C++, which is definitely Turing-
complete.
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there is definite potential in one post by Chris Uppal
and another by Chris Clark (or maybe I'm just partial to other people
named Chris).
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some word with
actually has that meaning. Otherwise, we are just going to be
linguistically prevented from discussing it.
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), and applying stereotypical rules (the theorem or axiom). I
don't quite understand what you mean by substituting classes.
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as the field has been
using the word for a good part of a century now.
The first step toward considering the similarities and differences
between the different uses of type in dynamic type systems and formal
type theory is to avoid confusing aspects of one field with the other.
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one or the other
meaning is being used.
Hopefully, that's a fair summary of the thread to date.
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be inferred by any
tractable procedure so that safe code like this may be written without
making giving the development process undue difficulty by requiring ten
times as much type annotations as actual code. There are attempts that
have been made, and they don't look too awfully bad.
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that their mental thought process of types is unsound, they
would want to fix it. The difference, though, is that there is then no
formal definition to fix.
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Chris F Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I thought about this in the context of reading Anton's latest post to
me, but I'm just throwing out an idea.
I wrote:
I think there is some sense of convergence here.
Apologies for following-up to my own
the case, so that dynamic type systems in
languages, if they are sound, prevent concept #3 from ever being in
question. But, of course, you don't think about it that way, which
distinguishes 2 from 3.)
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http
perform
this same kind analysis.
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of informal reasoning that (practically) every
programmer does daily is termination analysis.
Or perhaps you agree with my skepticism, here. This last paragraph
sounds like you're even more convinced of it than I am.
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type theory, I suppose. I have heard from others in
this thread that they don't believe so. I am also interested in your
response to the specific example involving an if statement at the
beginning of this reply.
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. The most popular
example is the OO sense of the word polymorphism. That's all about
being able to write code that works with a range of values regardless of
(or, at least, a range that less constraining than equlity in) types.
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Chris Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Programming languages do this all the time, as well. The most popular
example is the OO sense of the word polymorphism. That's all about
being able to write code that works with a range of values regardless of
(or, at least, a range that less
Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Java has a static type system.
Java has runtime tags and tag checks.
Yes.
The two are distinct, and neither one is less than complete
How is neither one less than complete?
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Dr.Ruud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith schreef:
Static types are not fuzzy
Static types can be fuzzy as well. For example: a language can define
that extra accuracy and bits may be used for the implementation of
calculations: d = a * b / c
Often some minimum is guaranteed.
Who
to be thinking about than my question here... so I will get to
reading that one, and perhaps we can take up this point later when and
if it is appropriate.
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as not agreeing.
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on the assumption that all we're talking about is
well-defined semantics.
Indeed. My statement there will not apply if we find some formal
definition of a dynamic type system that doesn't reduce to well-defined
semantics once you remove the intuitive bits from it.
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Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I stand corrected: if one is using C and writing self-modifying
code, then one *can* zip one's pants.
I believe you'd need quite the creative USB-based or similar peripheral
device, as well.
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at the leaves of the derivation tree, so the definition
would still apply.
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of that statement, but I can think of no obvious theoretical
reason to assume that combining a type system with a regular context-
free grammar would yield another context-free grammar. Then again,
formal languages are not my strong point.)
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?
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-
essential that we don't generally even mention it in lists of the
benefits of static types, because we have already assumed that it's true
of all languages except C, C++, and assembly language.
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Chris Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I see it as quite reasonable when there's an effort by several
participants in this thread to either imply or say outright that static
type systems and dynamic type systems are variations of something
generally called a type system [...]
I didn't say
or
dynamically typed?
So my answer is that it's not statically typed in the first case, and is
statically typed in the second case, and it intuitively appears to be
dynamically typed at least in the first, and possibly in the second as
well.
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that in a strong enough static type system, many
dynamic typing features would become unobservable and therefore would be
pragmatically excluded from any probable implementations... but I don't
see any other kind of mutual exclusion between the two.
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of languages that are clearly both
suggests that they should be considered separately to at least some
extent.
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. If you exclude
message not understood as a type error, then I think you're excluding
type errors from Smalltalk entirely, which contradicts the psychological
understanding again.
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of no
hardware environment that really accepts all possible values for all
possible operations without the potential of somehow signaling a type
violation.
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, which
are present in most statically typed languages, to be part of a type
in this sense or not.
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the truth.
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to outweigh the wordiness.
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languages, even if those same problems may have been originally solved
by type systems.
Untyped and type-free mean something else: they mean no type checking
is done.
Hence, they don't exist, and the definitions being used here are rather
pointless.
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pretending that the two definitions are comparable that I'm pointing
out.
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behaviors they
prevent, and not that there is some universal set.
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Joe Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris Smith wrote:
Knowing that it'll cause a lot of strenuous objection, I'll nevertheless
interject my plea not to abuse the word type with a phrase like
dynamically typed.
Allow me to strenuously object. The static typing community has its
Chris!
Hi! Where are you posting from these days?
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other!
We're all rubes here, so don't try to educate us with your
high-falutin' technical terms.
That's not my intention.
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of
the two definitions above. We'd probably need to modify the definition
of dynamic type systems, since most source tend to classify it as a
dynamic type system. It's getting rather late, though, and I don't
intend to think about how to do that.
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Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
Paolo Pantaleo wrote:
I am working on this:
I have a text file, containig certain section in the form
?py
python code here
py?
I parse the text file and substitute the python code with its result
[redirecting sys.stdin to a StringIO]. It something like php or
Stelios == Stelios Xanthakis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Stelios It had to happen :) http://pyvm32.infogami.com/EPL
Stelios Seriously, this is not so much about the whitespace as
Stelios for the new features, which might interest people who are
Stelios thinking about new features.
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/01/0150222
Customer: Well, then, have you got any Venezuelan Beaver Cheese?
Owner: Sir, this is a self-respecting establishment. I shall thank you
not to imply we should traffic in VB, much less, even mention the foul
product.
Props,
Chris
--
Rich == Rich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Rich Hi,
Rich (this is a probably a bit OT here, but comp.lang seems
Rich rather desolated, so I'm not sure I would get an answer
Rich there. And right now I'm in the middle of learning Python
Rich anyway so...)
Rich Anyway, my
Rene == Rene Pijlman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Rene [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
how can i copy text to the linux clipboard?
Rene Linux is an operating system. It doesn't have a
Rene clipboard. The clipboard is provided by desktop frameworks,
Rene such as KDE or Gnome.
Rene --
Sriram == Sriram Krishnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Mladen Adamovic wrote:
Hi! I wonder which editor or IDE you can recommend me for
writing Python programs. I tried with jEdit but it isn't
perfect.
Check out http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEditors. I personally use
mik3 == mik3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
mik3 hi this is a question regarding installing Activestate
mik3 python whenever i try to install the latest Activestate
mik3 Python on WinXP SP2, it gives me error saying The wizard
mik3 was interrupted before Activestate 2.4.2 could be
Frank == Frank Millman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Frank SELECT @@IDENTITY returns the most recent of all
Frank inserts. If you have a complex transaction which triggers
Frank inserts into other tables, it may not return the one you
Frank want.
Frank This one allows you to
One thing that made little sense to me when I was first working on
this is the following variation on the original script:
#--begin test script--
import logging
forest = [root,trunk,branch,leaf]
lumber_jack = {forest[0] : logging.DEBUG
,forest[1] : logging.INFO
Hola, pythonisas:
The documentation for the logging module is good, but a bit obscure.
In particular, there seems to be a lot of action at a distance.
The fact that getLogger() can actually be a call to Logger.__init__(),
which is mentioned in para 6.29.1, also bears stressing on 6.29. I
grasp
Diez == Diez B Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Diez Chris Smith schrieb:
Hola, pythonisas: The documentation for the logging module is
good, but a bit obscure. In particular, there seems to be a
lot of action at a distance. The fact that getLogger() can
actually
J == J D Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
J OK, I'm stupid. I have been unable to discern (even Googled) a
J way to set the PYTHONDOCS variable to point to where the HTML
J files are. What to do? I need to know the process and where
J theses variables are stored. -- J. D. Leach
John == John J Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John Guido may or may not realise it, but he seems to have been
John managing people (in some sense of 'managing', anyway) quite
John successfully over the past decade or so.
John John
Just you shush!
If he hears you, he'll return
Hi,
I've been working on some multi-dimensional lists and I've encountered some
very strange behaviour in what appears to be simple code, I'm using python
2.4.2 and IDLE. If anyone can tell me why it's behaving so strange please
let me know, any improvements to my general coding style are also
bonono == bonono [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
bonono What I don't quite understand is, if it is obvious,
bonono whether there is a Zen, people would still code it that
bonono way(unless of course they want to hide it from others or
bonono make it difficult to understand on
Gary == Gary Herron [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gary Erik Max Francis wrote:
Pierre Barbier de Reuille wrote:
When you need some symbols in your program, what do you use in
Python ?
For example, an object get a state. This state is more
readable if expressed as a
Sumit == Sumit [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sumit I have scinario like I have to Create resource(in
Sumit __init__()) Before Running a set of testcases and then In
Sumit Testcases resources are going to used and then It will
Sumit cleared off after Running the testcases by
Gordon == Gordon Airporte [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gordon I'm wondering if this is might be bad practice. Sometimes
Gordon when I need to pass around several pieces of datum I will
Gordon put them in a tuple, then when I need to use them in a
Gordon receiving function I get them
Robert == Robert Hicks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Robert I need to pull data out of Oracle and stuff it into an
Robert Excel spreadsheet. What modules have you used to interface
Robert with Excel and would you recommend it?
Robert Robert
For simple enough tasks, I think you can
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