On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 03:12:43 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 06/03/2013 01:43, Bob Hanson wrote:
[problem reporting bugs]
You'll be delighted to know that everybody will have to sign a
contributor agreement if they're supplying a patch file on the bug
tracker, see
On 06 Mar 2013 03:38:36 GMT, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:51:36 -0800, Bob Hanson wrote:
[trouble reporting bugs]
Works for me.
Please try again, and if it still does not work, please email me off-list
and I will help you either set up an account or report a tracker
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Bob Hanson invalid@invalid.invalid wrote:
(I was without internet access for a few days while the experts
at the phone company once again attempted to simulate minimal
competence culminating with their DSL install expert -- who had
never heard of Linux -- trying
On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:50:35 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 3/6/2013 2:48 PM, rh wrote:
[Bob Hanson wrote:]
I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
just before sending this post. [...]
[other details and errors snipped]
I had wanted to report doc
On 3/8/2013 11:12 PM, Bob Hanson wrote:
I do notice trivial changes,
I am currently set up again to do doc changes, so if you already have
some non-controversial changes to the *current* docs, the online html
versions, go ahead and email them to me.
but I also feel some of the
On 3/6/2013 2:48 PM, rh wrote:
I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
just before sending this post. Both times I got something like
this:
Subject: Failed issue tracker submission
From: Python tracker roundup-ad...@psf.upfronthosting.co.za
Date: Wed, 06
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:50:35 PM UTC-6, Terry Reedy wrote:
If you find a bug in this documentation or would like to propose an
improvement, please send an e-mail to d...@python.org describing the bug
and where you found it. If you have a suggestion how to fix it, include
that as
On Mar 7, 10:47 am, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
That's great Terry, but how will the next person find the link?
Why do you have such a low opinion of others that you think they're
unable to look up Reporting Bugs in the _documentation_?
--
I actually just tried that, and the results weren't very good.
Using the doc's search feature, the Reporting Bugs (and the About these
documents) page was significantly down the page (about 2/3 of the way) -
not the most obvious result in the pile. All the other searches I could
think of either
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 7:06:56 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
Why do you have such a low opinion of others that you think they're
unable to look up Reporting Bugs in the _documentation_?
I don't have a low opinion of anybody here. However the fact that this
community needs an entry level path
On 3/6/2013 7:47 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:50:35 PM UTC-6, Terry Reedy wrote:
If you find a bug in this documentation or would like to propose an
improvement, please send an e-mail to d...@python.org describing the bug
and where you found it. If you have a
On Thu, 07 Mar 2013 02:28:10 +0100, Chris Kaynor
ckay...@zindagigames.com wrote:
I actually just tried that, and the results weren't very good.
Using the doc's search feature, the Reporting Bugs (and the About
these documents) page was significantly down the page (about 2/3 of
the way) -
On Mar 7, 11:31 am, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't have a low opinion of anybody here. However the fact that
this community needs an entry level path for bug/grievance reports
is *glaringly* obvious.
Please explain how finding your vanity list would be easier than
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 7:52:59 PM UTC-6, Terry Reedy wrote:
How much longer are we going to treat the symptoms
We would VERY MUCH like a system to make it easier for readers to report
doc bugs and developers to fix them. No one yet has come up with both a
reasonable idea and
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
We need to know where the bottle necks are when learning the language, and
since we are experienced, we lack the noob insight to even see the problems.
I'll bet $100 you hated writing self as the first argument
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 8:28:42 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
On Mar 7, 11:31 am, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't have a low opinion of anybody here. However the fact that
this community needs an entry level path for bug/grievance reports
is *glaringly* obvious.
On Mar 7, 12:57 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
GvR DOES NOT need to mention my name. All i am asking is that he show
some support for the general *idea* of lowering the bar for bug/grievance
reporting. Or at least start by admitting we have a problem.
Your obsession with
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 9:12:37 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
Your obsession with Guido is tiring.
And your false accusations that i am somehow obsessed with GvR have BEEN
tiring for quite some time! I am neither passionate for or prejudice against
the man. I simple ask that he live up to his
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:25:25 -0800 (PST), alex23 wrote:
On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
[...] do you /really/ expect that people
have the time to open an issue on the bug tracker?
If someone can write a paragraph on their blog or this list
[Sorry for the double-post -- I somehow had Followup-To set to
poster in the first post.]
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:25:25 -0800 (PST), alex23 wrote:
On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
[...] do you /really/ expect that people
have the time to open an issue on
[Sorry for the double-post -- I somehow had Followup-To set to
poster in the first post.]
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:25:25 -0800 (PST), alex23 wrote:
On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
[...] do you /really/ expect that people
have the time to open an issue on
On 06/03/2013 01:43, Bob Hanson wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:25:25 -0800 (PST), alex23 wrote:
On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
[...] do you /really/ expect that people
have the time to open an issue on the bug tracker?
If someone can write a paragraph
On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:51:36 -0800, Bob Hanson wrote:
I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including just
before sending this post. Both times I got something like this:
Subject: Failed issue tracker submission From: Python tracker
The OP speaks for himself alone.
Python - for such a very young language, and with the documentation and
community blogs available at this point - I cannot ask for more.
And who needs docs when the python syntax is as good as writing plain
english sentence?
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:06 PM,
[snip hostile replies]
It's somehow funny to read such posts on a thread about someone complaining
about the community python being hostile.
I think we should really try to resist the urge of answering trolls because no
matter how many times we slap them, they'll stay trolls and probably get
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:57:05 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:53 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:18:46 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
[...]
* Do you care about the evolution of Python or just give
it lip service?
I don't see
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 5:28 AM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Q: Do you feel that the bug tracker should be a place where users discuss
grievances that distract volunteers from fixing actual bugs?
So you admit that discussion of your whining about perceived
grievances would
On Mar 1, 4:28 am, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
And by the way Alex, you are free to put *your* face into the conversation
anytime you like.
You're such a little fascist.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 26/02/2013 12:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info writes:
It is valuable to contrast and compare the PHP and Python docs:
http://php.net/manual/en/index.php
http://www.python.org/doc/
I suppose you should compare it with http://docs.python.org/3/ instead.
There's no doubt that one
Mitya Sirenef msirenef at lightbird.net writes:
I think the issue with python documentation is that it ignores the 95/5
rule: 95% of people who land on a module's page are only looking for 5%
of its information.
The 95/5 rule is generally a fallacy which ignores that the 5% which the
readers
On 02/27/2013 08:22 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Mitya Sirenef msirenef at lightbird.net writes:
I think the issue with python documentation is that it ignores the 95/5
rule: 95% of people who land on a module's page are only looking for 5%
of its information.
The 95/5 rule is generally a
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:22:44 AM UTC-6, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Which means that in the end you would really want a diversity of HOWTOs
targeted at different usages of the stdlib. But it is a lot of work to
write *and* maintain.
So instead we maintain a simple, albeit broken, doc that
On 02/26/2013 05:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Terry (with all due respect), do you /really/ expect that people
have the time to open an issue on the bug tracker?
If someone can write a paragraph on their blog or this list
complaining about a problem, then yes, they have
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:20:04 -0800, rurpy wrote:
As JoePie91 pointed out, reference material should describe its subject
matter completely and accurately. Once documentation has archived that
minimum bar of viability, its quality is determined by how effectively
it transfers that information
On 02/26/2013 11:43 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 2/26/2013 7:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
In article 54967758-e84c-4b9c-a09c-10fbdbec2...@googlegroups.com,
Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
do you /really/ expect that people have the
time to open an issue on the bug tracker?
There's a certain amount of socialism involved in OSS. From each
according to his
On 28/02/2013 01:17, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
On 02/26/2013 11:43 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 2/26/2013 7:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:25:25 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
Ranting on public forums is nothing but posturing at best, and at
worst an attempt to blackmail-by-shame people into doing something for
you. Same goes for calls for the community to fix things.
What you call ranting is most times
In article 287852cd-09ee-4768-9591-c1f31fe04...@googlegroups.com,
Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
When someone tries to offer help, in the form of constructive criticism, and
then somebody snaps at them, they then loose the will to help. I myself would
love to contribute my
On 2/27/2013 8:17 PM, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
On 02/26/2013 11:43 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
In which JoePie91 writes:
...the community around Python is one of the most hostile and
unhelpful communities around any programming-related topic that
I have ever seen...
To me, this is a lying
I just completed my first Python app for public consumption, and I was learning
as I was coding. I've played on the outskirts of the language for a few years,
but until this project I'd never really immersed myself in it. I ended up
being confused a lot. So, I DO have some relevant thoughts:
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list (Hypothetical at this
point). We need an official place for the many problems of Python to be
discussed in a fair and open manner. A place that will be open to
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:44:08 PM UTC-6, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list
(Hypothetical at this point). We need an official place
for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a
fair
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:43:58 PM UTC-8, Rick Johnson wrote:
Python is a great language, but we need diverse ideas to keep the cogs of
evolution turning. Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, all
it will take is for him to make a public announcement...
Geez, dude,
On Feb 28, 12:05 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:25:25 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
Ranting on public forums is nothing but posturing at best, and at
worst an attempt to blackmail-by-shame people into doing something for
you. Same goes for
On Feb 28, 1:43 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, all it will
take is for him to make a public announcement...
Can you please stop this *constant* insistence that Guido talk to
you / do what you think is important? It's
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:18:46 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
You claim that no one has time to write a bug report. I point out that
if they can spend the time ranting about the bug, then they have the
time.
And i would like to point out that all your nay-saying and condemnations are
Python has a nice Tutorial for beginners. It is an integral part of the doc
set. To ignore that (and the indexes) in discussing the usability of Python
docs by beginners is to lie. (If beginners who actually read the tutorial
have problems with particular paragraphs, improvements can be and
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Jason Friedman jsf80...@gmail.com wrote:
The lazy and workable approach is to read the module documentation,
make a reasonable effort, follow
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html, and voilà.
The Force is strong with this one.
If only others would
On 02/27/2013 06:05 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:20:04 -0800, rurpy wrote:
As JoePie91 pointed out, reference material should describe its subject
matter completely and accurately. Once documentation has archived that
minimum bar of viability, its quality is determined
On Feb 28, 2:53 pm, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:18:46 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
You claim that no one has time to write a bug report. I point out that
if they can spend the time ranting about the bug, then they have the
time.
And i
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 4:57 PM, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
My biggest regret re Python is that [Ranting Rick] found it more
appealing than Ruby and we got saddled with [him] instead.
Having used Ruby a little this past couple of weeks (trying to install
a Rails application), I fully
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
http://joepie91.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/the-python-documentation-is-bad-
and-you-should-feel-bad/
It is valuable
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
In article mailman.2541.1361884843.2939.python-l...@python.org,
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
There are some issues with the Googleability of the Python docs at the
moment. It's much easier to find the official page of PHP's docs than
Python's. Trouble is, the official page of PHP
:
On 26 February 2013 08:54, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation [...]
[...] should we feel bad about Python's docs?
The Python docs are my first port of
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
There's no doubt that one of PHP's strengths, perhaps its biggest
strength, is the good state of documentation. But should we feel bad
about Python's docs? I don't think that either the Python
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
When people ask PHP questions, the questions tend to be phrased as what
do I type to get X, and the answers come back that way too. The forums
are full of, I had the same problem. Somebody told me to do this. I
don't really
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:26:47 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
And just to add to the pile of ways this could be done, the first
response in this thread
https://forums.digitalpoint.com/threads/how-to-get-last-character-in-
string.796134/
suggests *reversing the string* and indexing from the front.
On 2013-02-26, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
Ahh! A point at which I can interject.
As a rank green python noob, I definitely hava an opinion on python
documentation and it's not entirely flattering.
I think learning a language from the documentation is an unreasonable
expectation and burden for the authors.
Buy a book, take a class, they are designed to provide you with a path from
start to finish in a sensible manner, the documentation in my opinion is
supposed to be a reference and a
On 2013.02.26 10:19, notbob wrote:
zsh? What docs!?
You mean other than the gigantic user manual?
http://zsh.sourceforge.net/Doc/
--
CPython 3.3.0 | Windows NT 6.2.9200 / FreeBSD 9.1
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 2013-02-26 14:26, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
When people ask PHP questions, the questions tend to be phrased as what
do I type to get X, and the answers come back that way too. The forums
are full of, I had the same problem.
On 2013-02-26, Andrew Berg bahamutzero8...@gmail.com wrote:
On 2013.02.26 10:19, notbob wrote:
zsh? What docs!?
You mean other than the gigantic user manual?
http://zsh.sourceforge.net/Doc/
This document was generated by Simon Ruderich on July 24, 2012
'bout damn time!! ;)
nb
--
On 2013-02-26 17:54, notbob wrote:
zsh? What docs!?
You mean other than the gigantic user manual?
http://zsh.sourceforge.net/Doc/
This document was generated by Simon Ruderich on July 24, 2012
'bout damn time!! ;)
Generated...from source that has been around for ages:
On 2/26/2013 7:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
On 2013-02-26, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote:
which suggests that they've been actively maintained since 1999-2000
or so.
in various guises, dating back to the man pages. Not all as
thorough as the latest manual. Perhaps I shoulda qualified usable
docs. ;)
nb
--
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Adam W. awasile...@gmail.com wrote:
I think learning a language from the documentation is an unreasonable
expectation and burden for the authors.
That's how I learned it. The Python tutorial, together with the stdlib
reference manual, are often recommended to
On 02/26/2013 07:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
On Feb 26, 11:19 am, notbob not...@nothome.com wrote:
On 2013-02-26, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
Ahh! A point at which I can interject.
As a rank green python noob, I definitely hava an opinion on
On 26/02/2013 12:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
One week ago, JoePie91 wrote a blog post challenging the Python
community and the state of Python documentation, titled:
The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad.
Just to throw in my 2c -- in the same way that 'a picture is worth a
thousand words', an interactive interpreter is worth volumes of
documentation (especially one with such a nice help()/__doc__
functionality). It's worth pointing out that 'interpreter' appears in the
original rant once
On 02/26/2013 11:00 AM, nn wrote:
What it could have is better searching capability and a way to see
more examples. Examples would clutter the documentation so maybe they
should be collapsible, but you can never have enough examples.
A good resource (although only covering up to v2.3) is
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
There's no doubt that one of PHP's strengths, perhaps its biggest
strength, is the good state of documentation. But should we feel bad
about Python's docs?
I don't think so at all. I think the
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 4:17:22 PM UTC-6, Jason Swails wrote:
Just to throw in my 2c -- in the same way that 'a picture
is worth a thousand words', an interactive interpreter is
worth volumes of documentation (especially one with such a
nice help()/__doc__ functionality).
Yes! I don't
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Mark Janssen
dreamingforw...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
There's no doubt that one of PHP's strengths, perhaps its biggest
strength, is the good state of documentation. But
Hi I'm a Python enthusiast who originally found the Python docs at
python.org to be one of the main reasons that my enthusiasm was fed. Also
the thoughtful presence of docstrings throughout good projects and
libraries gives me the feeling that finding out how to do something in
Python is just as
On 2/26/2013 1:52 PM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
I would assert it isn't very kind to those even with basic fundamentals.
For example, under precisely what circumstances does int() raise
TypeError? You won't find that under either int's documentation, or
TypeError's documentation, you have to
On 2/26/2013 1:58 PM, Mitya Sirenef wrote:
I think the issue with python documentation is that it ignores the 95/5
rule: 95% of people who land on a module's page are only looking for 5%
of its information. So ideally it'd be separated in two different pages
or two sections of the same page,
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:48:27 +, MRAB wrote:
On 2013-02-26 14:26, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote:
When people ask PHP questions, the questions tend to be phrased as
what do I type to get X, and the answers come back that way too.
Subject: Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? To:
python-list@python.org Cc:Bcc:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=# Don't remove this line #=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- On
02/26/2013 09:00 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 2/26/2013 1:58 PM, Mitya Sirenef wrote:
I think the issue with python
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:48:51 PM UTC-6, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 2/26/2013 1:52 PM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
[...snip legit complaint...]
Have you opened an issue, or checked for existing issue? I would be open
to the idea that entries like that for int should not be overly type
On 02/26/2013 10:09 PM, Mitya Sirenef wrote:
(As a side note, I think it would be better if sections in datetime were
in separate pages, it would be easier to google and the navbar on the
left side is very crowded and rather hard to read - often I find myself
missing stuff that's in there
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