Re: Python docs disappointing

On 12/04/2014 03:27 AM, Albert van der Horst wrote: > That doesn't help. I'm a very experienced programmer and work in > routinely a dozen languages. Sometimes I do python. I want to do > numeric work. I remember the name numpy. It is important, everybody > knows it, it is all over the place. So I

Re: Python docs disappointing

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Albert van der Horst < alb...@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote: > In article , > Joel Goldstick wrote: > > > Plain google is far superior in finding information. > > And you tell me that writing yet another tutorial would improve that? > No, there is just one way. The p

Re: Python docs disappointing

Albert van der Horst wrote: > That doesn't help. I'm a very experienced programmer and work in > routinely a dozen languages. Sometimes I do python. I want to do > numeric work. I remember the name numpy. It is important, everybody > knows it, it is all over the place. So I want to find its docs,

Re: Python docs disappointing

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 9:27 PM, Albert van der Horst wrote: > That doesn't help. I'm a very experienced programmer and work in > routinely a dozen languages. Sometimes I do python. I want to do > numeric work. I remember the name numpy. It is important, everybody > knows it, it is all over the pla

Re: Python docs disappointing

In article , Joel Goldstick wrote: > >Or just WOW!. Programming is hard, and people have just started to do >it. Fifty years isn't that long. It has only been 20 years or so >that the web has been around. That makes it easier to find >information from a variety or sources -- the official doc

Re: Python docs disappointing

On 2014-11-20, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > jstnms...@gmail.com wrote: > >> I write this to address the criticism which targets a user's lack of >> responsibility for the real/implied/insinuated failings of the docs. >> As a relatively inexperienced student of programming, [...] After >> all, I'm a l

Re: Python docs disappointing

jstnms...@gmail.com wrote: > I write this to address the criticism which targets a user's lack of > responsibility for the real/implied/insinuated failings of the docs. As a > relatively inexperienced student of programming, I am not in any position > to contribute/edit the documents. THAT DOES

Re: Python docs disappointing

On 20/11/2014 23:10, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2014-11-20, jstnms...@gmail.com wrote: I write this to address the criticism which targets a user's lack of responsibility for the real/implied/insinuated failings of the docs. As a relatively inexperienced student of programming, I am not in any po

Re: Python docs disappointing

On 2014-11-20, jstnms...@gmail.com wrote: > I write this to address the criticism which targets a user's lack of > responsibility for the real/implied/insinuated failings of the docs. > As a relatively inexperienced student of programming, I am not in any > position to contribute/edit the docume

Re: Python docs disappointing

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 9:54 AM, wrote: > > Here is an *entirely typical* example: on some Unix, try > > > > % pydoc urllib > I don't know who "kj" is, and jstnms123 seems to be basically off his rocker, so I won't try cc'ing either of them. (They also seem to misunderstand the nature of contrib

Re: Python docs disappointing

On 11/20/2014 08:54 AM, jstnms...@gmail.com wrote: > Perhaps the reason programs are so inelegant, and so user-UNfriendly, > and so bug-infested, is a natural consequence, when a field is > dominated by creatures who know much more than they comprehend, and > much less than they need to? If, I thi

Re: Python docs disappointing

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 10:54 AM, wrote: > On Friday, July 31, 2009 2:10:45 PM UTC-6, kj wrote: >> I'm pretty new to Python, and I like a lot overall, but I find the >> documentation for Python rather poor, overall. >> >> I'm sure that Python experts don't have this problem: they have >> internal

Re: Python docs disappointing

On Friday, July 31, 2009 2:10:45 PM UTC-6, kj wrote: > I'm pretty new to Python, and I like a lot overall, but I find the > documentation for Python rather poor, overall. > > I'm sure that Python experts don't have this problem: they have > internalized some good ways to access the documentation,

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

ru...@yahoo.com writes: > I took a look at the PHP docs last night which seem pretty well > done. The User Comments looked rather as I expected, there was > useful info but most did not contain documentation quality writing. > So if they are used as a source for improving the docs, there > clearly

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 18 Aug, 05:19, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Yes, I agree.  I should have mentioned this as an exception > in my "wikis suck" diatribe.  Although it far better than > most wiki's I've seen, it is still pretty easy to find signs > of typical wiki-ness.  On the Documentation page my first > click was

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 13:56:13 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote: > Python 3.0 went overboard by actually removing the cmp argument and > requiring use of the key argument. That requires various kludges if the > key is, say, a tree structure that has to be recursively compared with > another such structure.

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Nathan Keel wrote: idiot ... asshole absolutely clueless ... idiot ...incredibly arrogant, yet incredibly clueless. To me, such name-calling is as obnoxious as the intended target. tjr -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 08/13/2009 08:46 AM, Paul Boddie wrote: > On 13 Aug, 16:05, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: >> All the above not withstanding, I too think a wiki is worth >> trying. But without doing a lot more than just "setting up >> a wiki", I sadly believe even a python.org supported wiki >> is doomed to failure. >

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

[Xah Lee] > This part i don't particular agree: > > > * The reason for implementing the key= parameter had nothing to do > > with limitations of Python's compiler.  Instead, it was inspired by > > the > > decorate-sort-undecorate pattern. > > The decorate-sort-undecorate pattern is a compiler limi

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Jon Harrop wrote: > Xah Lee wrote: >> On Aug 12, 12:15 pm, Raymond Hettinger wrote: >>> * The reason for implementing the key= parameter had nothing to do >>> with limitations of Python's compiler. Instead, it was inspired by >>> the >>> decorate-sort-undecorate pattern. >> >> The decorate-sort

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Jon Harrop writes: > You mean people use that pattern as a fast alternative in languages where > user-defined functions are very slow, like Python and Mathematica? It really doesn't matter whether the language is fast or slow--there are going to be applications where calling the comparison functi

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Jon Harrop wrote: >Xah Lee wrote: [...] Please do not feed this well-known troll. He is known to spew some remotely on-topic junk into a bunch of unrelated NGs and to enjoy the ensuing confusion. jue -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Xah Lee wrote: > On Aug 12, 12:15 pm, Raymond Hettinger wrote: >> * The reason for implementing the key= parameter had nothing to do >> with limitations of Python's compiler. Instead, it was inspired by >> the >> decorate-sort-undecorate pattern. > > The decorate-sort-undecorate pattern is a com

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Aug 12, 12:15 pm, Raymond Hettinger wrote: > [Xah Lee] > > > i've wrote several articles about this issue, total time spend on this > > is probably more than 2 months full-time work. See: > > > • Python Documentation Problems > > http://xahlee.org/perl-python/python_doc_index.html > > I just

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Thanks Raymond. I've been out of python community for a couple of years. I've saved your messages and will study it later when next time i work in python. Possibly today and will reply in some of your points. But just wanted to say thanks for improving python. Also, sometimes ago out of the blue

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Bill Jones wrote: On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: Kee Nethery wrote: As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it has become anti-newbies. [snip] Kee Nethery My gut feeling (which could

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 14, 10:15 pm, Bill Jones wrote: > On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: > > My gut feeling (which could of course be wrong) is that many hard core > > Pythonistas are cheesed off with newbies who refuse to help themselves. > > The funny thing is that their response is to shutdown changes

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 8, 3:27 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: > Kee Nethery wrote: > > As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on > > this list towards people who are trying to learn Python  feels like it > > has become anti-newbies. > > [snip] > > > Kee Nethery > > My gut feeling (which cou

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

A basic question in this thread is: Who will host the doc-wiki/whatever and how will it be linked to? If not hosted at python.org it can still be linked to from their docs, if allowed, possibly with 3rd level domain and re-direct. I host a number of commercial servers but I don't expect Guido to

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:23:27 -0700, rurpy wrote: >> That's no different from *any* major refactoring. The exact same >> problem exists for code as well as documentation. It's a solved problem >> for code, and it's a solved problem for documentation. > > Huh? I don't buy this at all. Code refact

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 13 Aug, 16:05, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: > > All the above not withstanding, I too think a wiki is worth > trying.  But without doing a lot more than just "setting up > a wiki", I sadly believe even a python.org supported wiki > is doomed to failure. The ones on python.org seem to function reasona

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 08/12/2009 12:27 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: > On Aug 12, 3:32 am, Paul Boddie wrote: >> Maybe the problem is that although everyone welcomes contributions and >> changes (or says that they do), the mechanisms remain largely beyond >> criticism. > > FWIW, I support the idea the regular docs in

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Paul Boddie wrote: Right, but those good points are still worth taking on board. There have been Xah Lee posts which have been relatively constructive, The last time that he did do so that I read, I responded rationally like I would with any other normal post. He responded with foul insults.

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Raymond Hettinger wrote: On Aug 12, 3:32 am, Paul Boddie wrote: Maybe the problem is that although everyone welcomes contributions and changes (or says that they do), the mechanisms remain largely beyond criticism. FWIW, I support the idea the regular docs incorporating links to freely editab

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 08/12/2009 01:58 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:50:51 -0700, rurpy wrote: > The issue tracker is fine for many things, but the process it provides is equivalent to peep-hole optimization. How does one submit a tracker issue for something like the overall orga

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

> FWIW, I support the idea the regular docs incorporating links > to freely editable wiki pages. That will at least make it > easier for people to make changes or add notes. > > That being said, I would like to add a few thoughts about the > current process. ISTM that important corrections (

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

[Raymond Hettinger] > Here are a few thoughts on list.sort() for those who are interested: After one more reading of Xah Lee's posts on the documentation for sort, here are couple more thoughts: * The reason that list.sort() allows None for the cmp parameter is not so that you can write list.sort

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Aug 12, 1:27 pm, Raymond Hettinger wrote: (snip) > * Many doc requests come from people just learning the language > (that makes sense because the learning process involves reading > the docs).  Unfortunately, a fair number of those requests are > flat-out wrong or represent a profound misunder

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

[Xah Lee] > i've wrote several articles about this issue, total time spend on this > is probably more than 2 months full-time work. See: > > • Python Documentation Problems >  http://xahlee.org/perl-python/python_doc_index.html I just read you post. You did devote a substantial amount of time

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Aug 12, 3:32 am, Paul Boddie wrote: > Maybe the problem is that although everyone welcomes contributions and > changes (or says that they do), the mechanisms remain largely beyond > criticism. FWIW, I support the idea the regular docs incorporating links to freely editable wiki pages. That wi

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Paul Boddie wrote: On 12 Aug, 17:08, Steven D'Aprano wrote: It's not the people who suggest improvements to the docs that are the problem, but the ones who insist that the docs are terrible, but aren't willing to do anything but complain. Oh, and trolls like ... I hesitate to mention his name i

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 12 Aug, 17:08, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:24:18 -0700, Paul Boddie wrote: > > > What does the Python entry on Wikipedia have to do with editing the > > Python documentation in a Wiki? > > Good question. I was responding to you mentioning Wikipedia as a possible > role model

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:24:18 -0700, Paul Boddie wrote: > On 12 Aug, 14:08, Steven D'Aprano cybersource.com.au> wrote: >> >> With tens of millions of web users, it's no surprise that Wikipedia can >> attract thousands of editors. But this does not apply to Python, which >> starts from a comparativ

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Paul Boddie wrote: [snip] One can always spend one's time doing something which isn't 100% enjoyable or 100% rewarding if one feels that the time is still being spent on something worthwhile. I'm getting the feeling that lots of Python-related stuff doesn't quite satisfy such criteria any more.

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 12 Aug, 14:08, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > With tens of millions of web users, it's no surprise that Wikipedia can > attract thousands of editors. But this does not apply to Python, which > starts from a comparatively tiny population, primarily those interested > in Python. Have a look at the Wi

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Paul Boddie boddie.org.uk> writes: > > A free-for-all isn't likely to be the best solution for more actively > edited Python documentation, but Wiki solutions undeniably provide a > superior "fast path" for edits by trusted users to be incorporated and > published in accessible end-user documenta

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 03:32:08 -0700, Paul Boddie wrote: > On 12 Aug, 09:58, Steven D'Aprano > wrote: >> >> We know that there are problems. We've said repeatedly that corrections >> and patches are welcome. We've repeatedly told you how to communicate >> your answer to the question of what should

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 12 Aug, 09:58, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > We know that there are problems. We've said repeatedly that corrections > and patches are welcome. We've repeatedly told you how to communicate > your answer to the question of what should be done. None of this is good > enough for you. I don't know wha

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:45:51 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: > On Tuesday 11 August 2009 19:53:16 Steven D'Aprano wrote: > >> You want community input into the docs, but you're not willing to give >> that input except to bitch and moan and sook that the tracker is no >> good. > > wtf does the v

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Tuesday 11 August 2009 19:53:16 Steven D'Aprano wrote: > You want community input into the docs, but you're not willing to give > that input except to bitch and moan and sook that the tracker is no good. wtf does the verb "sook" mean? I find: sook   /sʊk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [so

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:50:51 -0700, rurpy wrote: >>> The issue tracker is fine for many things, but the process it provides >>> is equivalent to peep-hole optimization. How does one submit a >>> tracker issue for something like the overall organization of the docs >>> (for example, the mis-placem

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

ru...@yahoo.com wrote: Such a reorg is not a simple matter of moving a file from here to there. It will require a lot moving about of sections and a lot of word-smithing to glue them back together again in a coherent way. Concerning this particular issue, not everyone would agree that the doc

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Carl Banks writes: > On> For example, kj (who started this mess of thread) complained that > pydoc didn't give exhaustive usage documentation. In contrast, I > think pydoc gives too much information. I would rather have only the > bare minimum; I don't want to pan through ten paragraphs just to

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Aug 11, 4:08 pm, Paul Boddie wrote: > On 11 Aug, 23:50, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: > > However, were the Python docs site to provide a wiki, along > > with a mechanism to migrate suggestions developed on the wiki > > into the docs, it might well be a viable (and easier because of > > the wysiwyg ef

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 11, 2:46 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: > r wrote: > > Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good > > folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must > > wait for new version? > > As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been > ava

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 11 Aug, 11:37 pm, pavlovevide...@gmail.com wrote: I will not take an opinion on whether Python's documentation is ideal (more on why below) but I will opine that the conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. People's expectations of what documentation should be are too different, there wi

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Aug 11, 3:08 pm, Paul Boddie wrote: > Certainly, the documentation situation with > Python is not ideal; otherwise, people would not be complaining about > it so frequently. I will not take an opinion on whether Python's documentation is ideal (more on why below) but I will opine that the conc

[OT] From: header - WAS: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Hello Paul, This is strictly OT, but when you get a chance, could you contact me off list at the above address? I need your help with the From: email address specified in your posts to the list. Thanks, CJ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

...(Carl Banks doing what he does best) > > I'm mailing you to kindly request, again, that you please stop > > validating "r"'s disruptiveness by responding to him on > > comp.lang.python.  Thank you. Carl, You have no right to tell people when where and how they should speak to anyone. And how da

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

At 03:08 PM 8/11/2009, you wrote: I recommend going to the existing Wiki and looking at what there is already: http://wiki.python.org/moin/Documentation http://wiki.python.org/moin/CategoryDocumentation I also can't see how to get from http://wiki.python.org/moin/Documentation to http://wik

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 11 Aug, 23:50, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: > > However, were the Python docs site to provide a wiki, along > with a mechanism to migrate suggestions developed on the wiki > into the docs, it might well be a viable (and easier because of > the wysiwyg effect) way of improving the docs.  As other have

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Carl Banks wrote: On Aug 11, 1:46 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: r wrote: Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must wait for new version? As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 08/11/2009 11:53 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:57:28 -0700, rurpy wrote: > >> On 08/11/2009 01:47 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >>> r gmail.com> writes: On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon wrote: > Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python, >

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 11, 1:46 pm, Mark Lawrence wrote: > r wrote: > > Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good > > folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must > > wait for new version? > > As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been > ava

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r wrote: Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must wait for new version? As I pointed out a few minutes ago thicko, the new version has been available for months. -- Kindest regards. Mark Lawrence. -

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Ah Ha! the docs are broken and i was right all along! Are the good folks at Python dev rolling a new installer as we speak, or we must wait for new version? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r wrote: Ok people follow me here. Open your winders help file and click the "Tutorial" link. What is this FLUFF doing here!?!?! Where is the damn index? Where is the damn tutorial? I want to learn Python not read the HISTORY OF THE WORLD. Upon clicking the "Tutorial" link pre 2.6, a nice menu w

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Ok people follow me here. Open your winders help file and click the "Tutorial" link. What is this FLUFF doing here!?!?! Where is the damn index? Where is the damn tutorial? I want to learn Python not read the HISTORY OF THE WORLD. Upon clicking the "Tutorial" link pre 2.6, a nice menu was placed b

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On 2009-08-11, max bianco wrote: > I assume I am misunderstanding you here and you meant something else? > Python is paraded as a good language for beginners. I believe it is a good language for beginners. > Is this a false statement or a secondary objective? Objective of what? > Or are the d

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On 2009-08-11, Paul Rubin wrote: > r writes: >> Some say the tutorial is not meant for non-programmers, but for >> programmers with no Python experience. So! How does that justify >> obstruction of the tut? Why not present the same information in a way >> both can easily understand? > > I agree

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Kee Nethery wrote: > As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this > list towards people who are trying to learn Python  feels like it has become > anti-newbies. > > Learning a new language is difficult enough without seeing other newbie

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:35:26 -0700, Kee Nethery wrote: > > >> > Why exactly is posting an open comment on a bug tracker somehow >> > inferior to posting an open comment on a wiki? >> >> It's a good question and deserves a good answer. >> >>

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Raymond Hettinger writes: > Here is the page specifically marked for those who are new to programming: > http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide Oh cool, I didn't know about that one. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r writes: > Some say the tutorial is not meant for non-programmers, but for > programmers with no Python experience. So! How does that justify > obstruction of the tut? Why not present the same information in a way > both can easily understand? I agree that a tutorial for non-programmers would b

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

[Paul Rubin] > I think the Python tutorial is aimed at users who are newbies to > Python but not newbies to programming.  Writing a tutorial for total > newbies is a completely different problem, that would result in a much > different document that's less useful to the existing tutorial's > intend

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Steven D'Aprano writes: > - if people are keen on a Python wiki, then by all means publish one, > just don't expect the Python dev team to build and manage it for you; There are already some nice ones at: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Python -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:57:28 -0700, rurpy wrote: > On 08/11/2009 01:47 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> r gmail.com> writes: >>> On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon wrote: Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python, don't you think you should be discussing it on python

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r wrote: On Aug 11, 1:47 am, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote: Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off... Only useless feedback. [snip] I am sorry but i feel many here would not judge fairly based on the merits of an idea without allowing "b

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 11, 1:47 am, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote: > > Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off... > > Only useless feedback. And who decides what is useless and what isn't Steven?. You?, alex23?, Bruno?, Paul? Carl? Who makes these decisions and

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On 08/11/2009 01:47 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > r gmail.com> writes: >> On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon wrote: >>> Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python, >>> don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ? >> Yea, them's be a friendly bunch to noob ideas

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

David Lyon wrote: On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:13:34 -0700, Ethan Furman wrote: As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly, terrifying. What is m

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Kee Nethery wrote: > I too find the Python docs not very useful and it really slows down my > learning curve. > > I wonder if it would make sense to find good tech writers, get a quotes, > and get some professionally written documentation WITH LOTS OF EXAMPLES > a

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r a écrit : (snip) A little note for tutorial writers: == Dear Expert, Whilst writing any tutorial on any subject matter please remember, you may be an expert, but mostly *non-experts* will be reading your material... I can only second Paul on this : just like

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Antoine Pitrou wrote: r gmail.com> writes: On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon wrote: Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python, don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ? Yea, them's be a friendly bunch to noob ideas ;). Hey i got a better idea, lets go

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

r gmail.com> writes: > > On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon wrote: > > Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python, > > don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ? > > Yea, them's be a friendly bunch to noob ideas ;). Hey i got a better > idea, lets go to the

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:05:00 -0400, David Lyon wrote: > So, what you're advocating is let things stay how they are... If it's not broken, don't fix it. > Ignore feedback... tell people to freak off... Only useless feedback. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

r writes: > Whilst writing any tutorial on any subject matter please remember, you > may be an expert, but mostly *non-experts* will be reading your > material... pssft, this may come as a surprise, but tutorials are > meant for *NON-EXPERTS*! I think the Python tutorial is aimed at users who are

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:13:34 -0700, Ethan Furman wrote: > As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea > of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody > who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly, terrifying. What is more terrifying is

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 10, 11:13 am, Ethan Furman wrote: (snip) > As someone who relies heavily on the docs I will also say that the idea > of giving the ability to modify the official documentation to somebody > who is /learning/ the language is, quite frankly, terrifying. (snip) Ethan, I think what you and a f

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Kee Nethery wrote: As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it has become anti-newbies. Learning a new language is difficult enough without seeing other newbies getting shamed for not knowing

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Aug 9, 11:02 pm, David Lyon wrote: > Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python, > don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ? Yea, them's be a friendly bunch to noob ideas ;). Hey i got a better idea, lets go to the IRS and see if we can persuade them

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

On Aug 9, 10:02 pm, David Lyon wrote: ... > Before you do that, you should clearly work out in your own mind > how you think things need to improve. It's not good enough just > saying this or that is bad without having specific ideas on what > needs to change. ''' He did. Did you read, for examp

Re: Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

Since you're talking about documentation, which is a part of python, don't you think you should be discussing it on python-dev ? That's where discussions about the documentation should be held. haha - I'm just curious to see how long it will for them to shut the discussion down. Before you do

Social problems of Python doc [was Re: Python docs disappointing]

The prob with python docs is with the python priests. there are frequent posts about python doc's poor quality, and some efforts to improve the doc (such as wiki or seggestions), about few times a year (in so much as i've seen), the typical response is pissing fight, with python priests to tell th

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:27:49 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote: > Further, I have seen many requests here which are nothing really to do > with Python, say a query about which algorithm to use. Response "Not > really a Python question, but try ...". Put the same question on (say) > the C ng and you'd b

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Paul Rubin wrote: > Stephen, Alex, etc.: have you actually used the php.net doc system? > Don't knock it til you've tried it.  IMO it is superior to Python's > system.   I've tried it, a lot. Is it okay for me to keep criticising it now, or would you like some time t

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 6, 11:36 am, Kee Nethery wrote: > As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on   > this list towards people who are trying to learn Python  feels like it   > has become anti-newbies. I don't think this NG is anti-newbie so much as anti-whining-loser. Unfortunatel

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Kee Nethery wrote: As someone trying to learn the language I want to say that the tone on this list towards people who are trying to learn Python feels like it has become anti-newbies. [snip] Kee Nethery My gut feeling (which could of course be wrong) is that many hard core Pythonistas ar

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

Paul Rubin schreef: > Steven D'Aprano writes: >> As for the rest, you're right that the current bug-tracker puts up >> barriers to people submitting comments and bugs. That's actually a good >> thing. The only thing worse than not enough information is too much >> information, and the current s

Re: Python docs disappointing - group effort to hire writers?

On Aug 7, 12:41 am, alex23 wrote: ...(snip) > How about a secondary site that embeds the docs and provides > commenting functionality around it? That's certainly a finitely scoped > project that those with issues about the docs could establish and > contribute to, with the possibility of it gainin

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