Steven D'Aprano wrote:
software*is* mathematics
No it isn't.
Yes, it is.
(If the machine is particularly
simple -- you might be able to exactly simulate a lever in pure
mathematics, but simulating, say, a nuclear bomb or a dialysis machine in
mathematics is more of a challenge...)
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 11:29 PM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
snip
Ok, so, you're basically saying that perfect simulation is not a
requirement for something to 'be mathematics'. I don't think you can
construct a nontrivial model for mathematics without including that,
but I'd be
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:21 PM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
snip
This looks to me like an application of the troll motto if you can't
dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull. It certainly does
nothing to prove your claim, despite clearly attempting to word-salad
your
On Saturday 16 April 2011 16:46:10 geremy condra wrote:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:21 PM, harrismh777
harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
snip
This looks to me like an application of the troll motto if
you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with
bull. It certainly does nothing to
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 00:21:55 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
software *is* mathematics
No it isn't.
I might accept an argument that *algorithms* are mathematics, but
software is not algorithms.
Consider the difference between the mathematical concept of leverage and
an actual physical lever. We
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
(If the machine is particularly
simple -- you might be able to exactly simulate a lever in pure
mathematics, but simulating, say, a nuclear bomb or a dialysis machine in
mathematics is more of a
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
(If the machine is particularly
simple -- you might be able to exactly simulate a lever in pure
mathematics, but simulating,
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Westley Martínez aniko...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 14:02 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:15:05 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
4) Assumes people aren't deliberately fiddling the figures. Yeah, that
would be correct. We're in
geremy condra wrote:
http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=2009151305785
This is not a proof. This is an argument. There's a very big difference.
To be clear, this article makes basically the same mistake you do- you
assume that a program is exactly equivalent to its
Ian Kelly wrote:
There is at least one method of measuring it without resorting to
sales figures: logging user-agent data from web browsers. Is it
perfectly accurate? Of course not. But there are a number of
different organizations that do this, sampling hundreds of thousands
of different
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 10:35 PM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
I am sorry, I was not clear and you rightly misunderstood my indirection.
I am not claiming that software describes hardware. Please allow me to
restate.
Mathematics describes hardware, yet hardware is
geremy condra wrote:
Having said that, I have a greater respect for mathematics than I do
for my own economic views, and I don't like seeing it become a
political football. If you can prove something,*prove it*. If you
cannot- no matter how close you might feel you are- don't claim that
math
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 4:04 PM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
How many web crawlers have you built? Are there any web programmers out
there who need a web bot to hit multiple sites zillions of times a month
from different places on earth to 'up' the number of hits for economic
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:15:05 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
4) Assumes people aren't deliberately fiddling the figures. Yeah, that
would be correct. We're in the realm of conspiracy theories here... does
anyone seriously think that browser stats are THAT important that they'd
go to multiple web
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
Now, if only we could convince web users that having your browser execute
untrusted code downloaded from the Internet is not such a good idea,
supposed sandbox or not. What the world needs is a virus
HI Steven D'Aprano...
Now, if only we could convince web users that having your browser execute
untrusted code downloaded from the Internet is not such a good idea, supposed
sandbox or not.
No need, we have an abundance of half wits - erm I mean, surfers - out there
willing click on
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:04 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
How mamy times have you altered the identity of your web browser so that
the web site would 'work'? You know, stupid messages from the server that
say, We only support IE 6+, upgrade your browser..., so you tell it
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:22 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
geremy condra wrote:
Having said that, I have a greater respect for mathematics than I do
for my own economic views, and I don't like seeing it become a
political football. If you can prove something,*prove it*. If
On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 14:02 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:15:05 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
4) Assumes people aren't deliberately fiddling the figures. Yeah, that
would be correct. We're in the realm of conspiracy theories here... does
anyone seriously think that
On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 14:02 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:15:05 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
4) Assumes people aren't deliberately fiddling the figures. Yeah, that
would be correct. We're in the realm of conspiracy theories here... does
anyone seriously think that
Westley Martínez wrote:
Also, why aren't Opera and Google criticized for their proprietary
browsers (Chrome is essentially a proprietary front-end)? Is it because
their browsers follow web standards, or is it because we have demonized
Microsoft?
My biggest gripe with Microsoft as that they
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:50:24 -0700, Westley Martínez wrote:
Also, why aren't Opera and Google criticized for their proprietary
browsers (Chrome is essentially a proprietary front-end)? Is it because
their browsers follow web standards, or is it because we have demonized
Microsoft?
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:36 AM, Martin Gregorie
martin@address-in-sig.invalid wrote:
I think the only real evil is to set out to make a non-standards-
compliant server and then design client software that seeks to lock in
people to your server. FWIW I'm not certain that is anything that MS
On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:01:42 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:36 AM, Martin Gregorie
martin@address-in-sig.invalid wrote:
I think the only real evil is to set out to make a non-standards-
compliant server and then design client software that seeks to lock in
people to
On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 08:01 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:36 AM, Martin Gregorie
martin@address-in-sig.invalid wrote:
I think the only real evil is to set out to make a non-standards-
compliant server and then design client software that seeks to lock in
people to
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:23:01 -0700, Westley Martínez wrote:
On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 08:01 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:36 AM, Martin Gregorie
martin@address-in-sig.invalid wrote:
I think the only real evil is to set out to make a non-standards-
compliant server and
On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:01:42 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:36 AM, Martin Gregorie
martin@address-in-sig.invalid wrote:
I think the only real evil is to set out to make a non-standards-
compliant server and then design client software that seeks to lock in
people to
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:50:24 -0700, Westley Martínez wrote:
Also, why aren't Opera and Google criticized for their proprietary
browsers (Chrome is essentially a proprietary front-end)? Is it because
their browsers follow web standards, or is it because we have demonized
Microsoft?
A little
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:46:46 -0700, Westley Martínez wrote:
Now, if only we could convince web users that having your browser
execute untrusted code downloaded from the Internet is not such a good
idea, supposed sandbox or not. What the world needs is a virus that
silently removes Javascript
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
Personally, I think it is *good* that there is a plurality of browsers in
the market. In my perfect world, no single browser should capture more
than 20% share of users.
In *MY* perfect world, choice
In article 4da7a8f5$0$29986$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:50:24 -0700, Westley MartÃnez wrote:
Also, why aren't Opera and Google criticized for their proprietary
browsers (Chrome is essentially a
In article 4da7abad$0$29986$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
What they give is ubiquity, which is a point in their favour. But just
because something is common doesn't make it useful: for the most part
both are used for style
geremy condra wrote:
I'm familiar with the case, and agree with Knuth (and you) that math
should not be patentable. I'd also agree that algorithms are
mathematics. Critically, algorithms*are not* software.
it isn't clear to me that software and
computation are synonymous. Lambda calculus
geremy condra wrote:
Software is another sort of animal entirely. Because software is not just
based on mathematics--- IT IS mathematics.
I am extremely skeptical of this argument.
... as are a great number of other people; corporations, lawyers,
venture capitalists, SPAM SPAM
Ian Kelly wrote:
The desktop
is all that is left... and that is dying... rapidly. Their lockin is well
entrenched (like Borg implants ) but the number of mom pops ( like my
entire extended family, for instance) who are moving to Ubuntu (themselves)
is astounding! It will not be long
On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 04:22 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
Ian Kelly wrote:
The desktop
is all that is left... and that is dying... rapidly. Their lockin is
well
entrenched (like Borg implants ) but the number of mom pops ( like my
entire extended family, for instance) who are
Hi Westley...
The pre-builts from Best Buy that get reloaded, reloaded with what? I
live in California, the center of software development. I only know one
person who uses Linux, and they only use it for work (he doesn't even
live in CA anymore). I have say your delusions about the use of
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:15 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
geremy condra wrote:
Software is another sort of animal entirely. Because software is not
just
based on mathematics--- IT IS mathematics.
I am extremely skeptical of this argument.
... as are a great
On 4/12/2011 4:15 AM, harrismh777 wrote:
Anyone here who does not understand how absurd software patents can get
should contemplate the following (based on a real patent from about 20
years ago, when CDroms were new.
A Methods for Ensuring that the Correct CDROM is in the CDROM drive.
While
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 3:22 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
This is very difficult... and I'm not dodging the ball here... its just
the truth. The 'market share' data are bogus. Reason? ... because the free
software 'market' is not a market.
This is just word-play. It has
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 3:22 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
It is not measured in any way, and it is almost impossible to determine
therefore in any accurate fashion. There
really are no data... what we
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote:
This data is of course skewed a bit toward computers that people are
using web browsers on.
Right, Linux servers are most likely underrepresented. At best the
data indicates what the population at large is using on their
On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 15:38 +0100, wisecrac...@tesco.net wrote:
Hi Westley...
The pre-builts from Best Buy that get reloaded, reloaded with what? I
live in California, the center of software development. I only know one
person who uses Linux, and they only use it for work (he doesn't
On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:37:08 -0600, Ian Kelly wrote:
There is at least one method of measuring it without resorting to sales
figures: logging user-agent data from web browsers. Is it perfectly
accurate? Of course not. But there are a number of different
organizations that do this, sampling
On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:43:00 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
Anyone here who does not understand how absurd software patents can get
should contemplate the following (based on a real patent from about 20
years ago, when CDroms were new.
A Methods for Ensuring that the Correct CDROM is in the
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
snip
That would be a patent on a business process, which is allowed. In fact,
as I recall, at least one lawyer has made an attempt to patent a business
process relating to law.
IBM tried patenting
On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 7:49 PM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
Chris Angelico wrote:
All software can be expressed as lambda calculus. The point being,
all
software is mathematics...
With enough software, you can simulate anything. That means that the
entire universe
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 00:53:57 -0700, geremy condra wrote:
On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 7:49 PM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net
wrote:
Chris Angelico wrote:
All software can be expressed as lambda calculus. The point
being,
all
software is mathematics...
With enough
On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 6:04 PM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
The deal with motive number (2) is that there are fewer and fewer teams who
are concerned with interoperability. For instance (my team), we moved our
stuff to gnulinux based systems and dumped Microsoft completely... we
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
So what is that number? Anecdotes are unreliable; I would like to see
the actual data. The only non-techie I personally know who uses Linux
is my wife, and she only uses it because it's what's installed at
home. My
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:10 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 00:53:57 -0700, geremy condra wrote:
snip
I am extremely skeptical of this argument. Leaving aside the fact that
you've randomly decided to drop the decidable qualifier here- a big
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:17:09 -0700, geremy condra wrote:
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:10 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
[...]
Of course, some mathematics is obvious, or at least intuitive (although
proving it rigorously can be remarkably difficult -- after 4000
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:17:09 -0700, geremy condra wrote:
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:10 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
[...]
Of course, some mathematics is obvious, or
geremy condra debat...@gmail.com writes:
[…] I think it's quite reasonable to contend that the existence of
lambda calculus no more rules out the applicability of patents to
software (which I detest) than it rules out the applicability of
patents to hardware (which I find only slightly less
On Sat, 2011-04-09 at 23:55 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 01:37:45 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
The reason Mono gets hit (from others besides me) is that they are in
partnership and collaboration with Microsoft, consciously and
unconsciously.
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
What do you mean 'just like?They are nothing alike.
All three of Python, Apache and Linux have accepted donations from
Microsoft. Microsoft is a corporate sponsor of the PSF. Microsoft is not
in the business of donating money and time to competitors out of the
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:04 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
Not so fast there, Steve. If they [Microsoft] are paying anything
(unsubstantiated, unknowable) to Python, Apache, or (Linux, whatever you
mean by that term...) there are only two motives:
Chris Angelico wrote:
Not so fast there, Steve. If they [Microsoft] are paying anything
(unsubstantiated, unknowable) to Python, Apache, or (Linux, whatever you
mean by that term...) there are only two motives:
http://www.python.org/psf/ - Microsoft is listed.
Chris Angelico wrote:
All software can be expressed as lambda calculus. The point being, all
software is mathematics...
With enough software, you can simulate anything. That means that the
entire universe can be expressed as lambda calculus. Does that mean
that nothing can ever be
On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 10:18 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:04 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
Not so fast there, Steve. If they [Microsoft] are paying anything
(unsubstantiated, unknowable) to Python, Apache, or (Linux, whatever you
mean by that
in 654905 20110408 171055 Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote:
Westley Mart�nez wrote:
On Fri, 2011-04-08 at 01:41 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
Freedom isn't free... you have to fight for it... always.
Why should a business listen to you? You're not gonna buy any software
anyways.
From a
On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 01:37:45 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
The reason Mono gets hit (from others besides me) is that they are in
partnership and collaboration with Microsoft, consciously and
unconsciously. This must be punished.
Just like Python, Apache, and the Linux
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info writes:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 07:50:56 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info writes:
Mono is free, open source software that is compatible with .NET
[…]
It's difficult to take a claim of
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
The reason Mono gets hit (from others besides me) is that they are in
partnership and collaboration with Microsoft, consciously and
unconsciously. This must be punished.
Just like Python, Apache, and the Linux kernel. What are you going to do
to punish them?
What do
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Just like Python, Apache, and the Linux kernel. What are you going to do
to punish them?
What do you mean 'just like?They are nothing alike.
(which is why the community is upset by sone, but not the others: hint)
The punishment? ... withdraw support and use of
On Fri, 2011-04-08 at 01:41 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Just like Python, Apache, and the Linux kernel. What are you going to do
to punish them?
What do you mean 'just like?They are nothing alike.
(which is why the community is upset by sone, but not the
Westley Martínez wrote:
On Fri, 2011-04-08 at 01:41 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
Freedom isn't free... you have to fight for it... always.
Why should a business listen to you? You're not gonna buy any software
anyways.
From a thread a few months back I can say there are a couple companies
On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 00:03:54 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
Ben Finney wrote:
It's difficult to take a claim of “free” seriously for a technology
(Mono) that knowingly implements techniques (the “C#” language, the
“.NET” platform, etc.) covered by specific idea patents held by an
entity that
On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 07:50:56 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info writes:
Mono is free, open source software that is compatible with .NET
[…]
It's difficult to take a claim of “free” seriously for a technology
(Mono) that knowingly implements
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
Do you want to know who scares me? Google and Apple. Google, because
they're turning software from something you run on your own computer to
something you use on a distant server you have no control
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Let's reword your concern slightly:
It's difficult to take a claim of “free” seriously for
technologies (including, but not limited to, HTML, CSS, C++,
XML, Public Key Cryptography, packet-based multimedia, IPv6)
that knowingly or unknowingly [the
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 11:31 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Let's reword your concern slightly:
It's difficult to take a claim of “free” seriously for
technologies (including, but not limited to, HTML, CSS, C++,
XML, Public Key
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
In my view, Mono encourages .NET; and that's bad. Idea patents and
particularly idea patents covering mathematics
Do you have an example of a patent covering mathematics that applies
to .NET?
Therein lies *the* problem. The point that gets missed over and
over is
harrismh777 wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
At this point Microsoft has absolutely nothing to offer the computer
science community at large except bzillions of euros ( or dollars ) of
wasteful litigation and head-ache.
Do you have an example of this wasteful litigation?
You have
On Thu, 2011-04-07 at 11:50 -0400, Benjamin Kaplan wrote:
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 11:31 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
...n Mono, which
is an open source implementation of the ECMA-334 and ECMA-335
standards. The only difference between it and Python is
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
Perhaps what you mean is, none of the licences granted are *irrevocable*.
But the same applies to the GPL -- break the GPL's (generous) terms, and
you too could find that your licence is revoked.
Actually, you could argue since the
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Please read
http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/2009/Jan-19.html
If you still do not understand why this is a bogus issue then just go
away.
Good blog--- off the point, but a nice rant none-the-less.
= block quote
With all this in mind, you
On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 2:33 AM, harrismh777 harrismh...@charter.net wrote:
Therein lies *the* problem. The point that gets missed over and over is
that there CAN BE NO PATENT COVERING MATHEMATICS ... period.
Yes, C# and .NET are covered by hundreds of software patents. Its an
insane
On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 14:37:27 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
The reason Mono gets hit (from others besides me) is that they are in
partnership and collaboration with Microsoft, consciously and
unconsciously. This must be punished.
Just like Python, Apache, and the Linux kernel. What are you going
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info writes:
Mono is free, open source software that is compatible with .NET
[…]
It's difficult to take a claim of “free” seriously for a technology
(Mono) that knowingly implements techniques (the “C#” language, the
“.NET” platform, etc.) covered
Ben Finney wrote:
It's difficult to take a claim of “free” seriously for a technology
(Mono) that knowingly implements techniques (the “C#” language, the
“.NET” platform, etc.) covered by specific idea patents held by an
entity that demonstrates every intention of wielding them to restrict
the
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