On 03/30/2012 06:25 AM, Steve Howell wrote:
On Mar 29, 11:53 am, Devin Jeanpierrejeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, what sort of language differences make for English vs Mandarin?
Relational algebraic-style programming is useful, but definitely a
large language barrier to people that don't
Re-trolling.
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
As part of my troll-outreach effort, I will indulge here. I was
specifically thinking about some earlier claims that programming
languages as they currently exist are somehow inherently
On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 08:39:14 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
Much like
with the terminal to GUI transition, you will have people attacking
declarative natural language programming as a stupid practice for noobs,
and the end of computing (even though it will allow people with much
less experience
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 13:17:18 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
I have never met a programmer that was not completely into computers.
That leaves a lot unspecified though.
You haven't looked hard enough. There
On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
Lets start with some analogies. In cooking, chefs use recipes to
produce a meal; the recipe is not a tool. In architecture, a builder
uses a blueprint to produce a building; the blueprint is not a tool.
In manufacturing,
On Apr 3, 11:19 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 08:39:14 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
Much like
with the terminal to GUI transition, you will have people attacking
declarative natural language programming as a stupid practice for noobs,
Long personal note ahead.
tl;dr version: Computers are such a large shift for human civilization
that generally we dont get what that shift is about or towards.
Another option: since *computers* are such a general device, there
isn't just one notion.
In the long run I expect computing
The building cabinets problem is interesting:
1. To actually build a cabinet, there's a lot of domain knowledge
that's probably implicit in most circumstances. A carpenter might
tell another carpenter which hinge to use, but they won't have to talk
about why doors need hinges or how to do
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Steve Howell
showel...@yahoo.com declaimed the following in
gmane.comp.python.general:
REXX is inhibited by the architectures to which it has been ported
--
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:40 AM, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 3, 2:55 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
I don't care what people do related to legacy systems.
And that's what earns you the label 'architecture astronaut'. Legacy
systems are _part_ of the problem;
On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
Don't think underlying, instead think canonical.
Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
chef describe a recipe? How does
On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:
On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Ricenathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
Don't think underlying, instead think canonical.
Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:
Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
to tighten screws
The latter is extremely difficult if you bite your toenails :)
I agree, thumbnails are far
On 2012-04-03, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:
On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:
Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
to tighten screws
The latter is extremely difficult
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote:
Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS patch utility? Apparently, DEC
thought it was a practical way to fix things. It had a built-in
assembler and let you insert new code into a function by
auto-allocating a location for
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Did you miss the part where I said that most people who learn to
program are fascinated by computers and highly motivated to do so?
I've never met a BROgrammer, those people go into sales. It isn't
because
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:01 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
Real programmers are much more complex.
Are you saying that some part of all of us is imaginary??
ChrisA
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 03/04/2012 15:56, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant Edwardsinvalid@invalid.invalid wrote:
Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS patch utility? Apparently, DEC
thought it was a practical way to fix things. It had a built-in
assembler and let you insert new code into a
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
Don't think underlying, instead think canonical.
Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see. How does a surgeon describe
On 04/03/2012 11:16 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 03/04/2012 15:56, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant
Edwardsinvalid@invalid.invalid wrote:
Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS patch utility? Apparently, DEC
thought it was a practical way to fix things. It had a built-in
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Did you miss the part where I said that most people who learn to
program are fascinated by computers and highly motivated to do so?
I've
On Apr 3, 9:15 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
Don't think underlying, instead think canonical.
Ultimately, the answers to your
On 2012-04-03, Dave Angel d...@davea.name wrote:
And I worked on a system where the microcode was in ROM, and
there was a patch board consisting of lots of diodes and some
EPROMs. The diodes were soldered into place to specfy the
instruction(s) to be patched, and the actual patches were in
All this futuristic grandiloquence:
On Apr 3, 10:17 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
The crux of my view is that programming languages exist in part
because computers in general are not smart enough to converse with
humans on their own level, so we have to talk to them
A carpenter uses his tools -- screwdriver, saw, planer --to do
carpentry
A programmer uses his tools to to programming -- one of which is
called 'programming language'
Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
to tighten screws
I would argue that the
On 4/3/2012 8:39 AM, Nathan Rice wrote:
Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
chef describe a recipe? How does a carpenter describe the process of
building cabinets? Aside from specific
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
On 4/3/2012 8:39 AM, Nathan Rice wrote:
Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
chef describe a recipe? How does a carpenter
-Original Message-
From: Mark Lawrence [mailto:breamore...@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, 4 April 2012 3:16 a.m.
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] -
somewhat OT
On 03/04/2012 15:56, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Wed, Apr 4,
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
On 4/3/2012 8:39 AM, Nathan Rice wrote:
Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does
a chef describe a recipe? How does
On 03/04/2012 19:42, Nathan Rice wrote:
I view computer science as applied mathematics, when it deserves
that moniker. When it doesn't, it is merely engineering.
Is it still April first in your time zone?
--
Cheers.
Mark Lawrence.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 13:17:18 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
I have never met a programmer that was not completely into computers.
That leaves a lot unspecified though.
You haven't looked hard enough. There are *thousands* of VB, Java, etc.
code monkeys who got into programming for the money only
Tim Rowe wrote:
On 22 March 2012 19:14, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
In any case, though, I agree that there's a lot of people
professionally writing code who would know about the 3-4 that you say.
I'm just not sure that they're any good at coding, even in those few
languages. All
On Mar 29, 7:03 am, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
We would be better off if all the time that was spent on learning
syntax, memorizing library organization and becoming proficient with
new tools
On Mar 29, 11:53 am, Devin Jeanpierre jeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, what sort of language differences make for English vs Mandarin?
Relational algebraic-style programming is useful, but definitely a
large language barrier to people that don't know any SQL. I think this
is reasonable.
On Mar 29, 9:42 am, Devin Jeanpierre jeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
You can't merge all of them without making a language that's
suboptimal at most of those tasks - probably, one that's woeful at all
of them. I mention
On Mar 30, 4:37 am, Devin Jeanpierre jeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, a lisp-like language. I would also argue that if you are using
macros to do anything, the thing you are trying to do should classify
On Mar 31, 1:13 pm, Tim Rowe digi...@gmail.com wrote:
I know 10 languages. But I'm not telling you what base that number is :)
Well, that means you know at least two programming languages, which
puts you ahead of a lot of people. :)
obligatory joke
Some folks, when confronted with a problem,
On Mar 30, 3:37 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
We live in a world where the tools that are used are based on
tradition (read that as backwards compatibility if it makes you feel
better) and as a mechanism for deriving personal identity. The world
is backwards and
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Steve Howell showel...@yahoo.com wrote:
I agree with you on the overall point, but I think that Python
actually does a fine job of replacing REXX and PHP. I've used both of
the latter (and, of course, Python). REXX and PHP are great at what
they do, but I
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 6:23 AM, Steve Howell showel...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Mar 31, 1:13 pm, Tim Rowe digi...@gmail.com wrote:
I know 10 languages. But I'm not telling you what base that number is :)
Well, that means you know at least two programming languages, which
puts you ahead of a lot
PHP is a language that I wish would die off quickly and
gracefully. I feel like the good things of PHP have already
been subsumed into the ecosystems of stronger programming
languages (including Python).
The one killer feature PHP has to offer over other languages:
ease of efficient
On Apr 2, 2:50 pm, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Steve Howell showel...@yahoo.com wrote:
I agree with you on the overall point, but I think that Python
actually does a fine job of replacing REXX and PHP. I've used both of
the latter (and, of
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 11:18 PM, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mar 30, 3:37 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
We live in a world where the tools that are used are based on
tradition (read that as backwards compatibility if it makes you feel
better) and as a mechanism
On Apr 3, 2:55 pm, Nathan Rice nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
I don't care what people do related to legacy systems.
And that's what earns you the label 'architecture astronaut'. Legacy
systems are _part_ of the problem; it's very easy to hold to a purist
approach when you ignore the
On 22 March 2012 19:14, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
In any case, though, I agree that there's a lot of people
professionally writing code who would know about the 3-4 that you say.
I'm just not sure that they're any good at coding, even in those few
languages. All the best people
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Tim Rowe digi...@gmail.com wrote:
I know 10 languages. But I'm not telling you what base that number is :)
The fact that you know there are bases other than 10 puts you in the
top half of the candidates already!
--
On Sat, 2012-03-31 at 18:55 -0400, David Robinow wrote:
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Tim Rowe digi...@gmail.com wrote:
I know 10 languages. But I'm not telling you what base that number is :)
The fact that you know there are bases other than 10 puts you in the
top half of the
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Rodrick Brown rodrick.br...@gmail.com
wrote:
The best skill any developer can have is the ability to pickup languages
very quickly and know what tools work well for which task.
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
We would be better off if all the time that was spent on learning
syntax, memorizing library organization and becoming proficient with
new tools was spent learning the mathematics, logic and engineering
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
You can't merge all of them without making a language that's
suboptimal at most of those tasks - probably, one that's woeful at all
of them. I mention SQL because, even if you were to unify all
programming languages,
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
We would be better off if all the time that was spent on learning
syntax, memorizing library organization and becoming proficient with
On 03/29/12 12:48, Nathan Rice wrote:
Of course, this describes Lisp to some degree, so I still need to
provide some answers. What is wrong with Lisp? I would say that the
base syntax being horrible is probably the biggest issue.
Do you mean something like:
((so (describes Lisp (to degree
Agreed with your entire first chunk 100%. Woohoo! High five. :)
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
transformations on lists of data are natural in Lisp, but graph
transformations are not, making some things awkward.
Eh, earlier you make some
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
jeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
Agreed with your entire first chunk 100%. Woohoo! High five. :)
Damn, then I'm not trolling hard enough ಠ_ಠ
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
transformations on
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 3:42 AM, Devin Jeanpierre
jeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
You can't merge all of them without making a language that's
suboptimal at most of those tasks - probably, one that's woeful at all
of them.
You can't merge all of them without making a language that's
suboptimal at most of those tasks - probably, one that's woeful at all
of them. I mention SQL because, even if you were to unify all
programming languages, you'd still need other non-application
languages to get the job done.
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
Of course it's POSSIBLE. You can write everything in Ook if you want
to. But any attempt to merge all programming languages into one will
either:
In that particular quote, I was saying that the reason that you
claimed we
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, a lisp-like language. I would also argue that if you are using
macros to do anything, the thing you are trying to do should classify
as not natural in lisp :)
You would run into disagreement. Some people
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
jeanpierr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Nathan Rice
nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, a lisp-like language. I would also argue that if you are using
macros to do anything, the thing you are trying to do should
On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:48:40 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
Here's a thought experiment. Imagine that you have a project tree on
your file system which includes files written in many different
programming languages. Imagine that the files can be assumed to be
contiguous for our purposes, so you
Here's a thought experiment. Imagine that you have a project tree on
your file system which includes files written in many different
programming languages. Imagine that the files can be assumed to be
contiguous for our purposes, so you could view all the files in the
project as one long
On 25 March 2012 11:03, Tim Chase python.l...@tim.thechases.com wrote:
On 03/24/12 17:08, Tim Delaney wrote:
Absolutely. 10 years ago (when I was just a young lad) I'd say that I'd
*forgotten* at least 20 programming languages. That number has only
increased.
And in the case of COBOL for
At my current firm we hire people who are efficient in one of the following and
familiar with any another C#, Java, C++, Perl, Python or Ruby.
We then expect developers to quickly pick up any of the following languages we
use in house which is very broad. In our source repository not including
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Rodrick Brown rodrick.br...@gmail.com wrote:
The best skill any developer can have is the ability to pickup languages very
quickly and know what tools work well for which task.
Definitely. Not just languages but all tools. The larger your toolkit
and the
On 23 March 2012 06:14, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages
moderately well, if you include SQL and regexes as languages, and might
have
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tim Delaney
timothy.c.dela...@gmail.com wrote:
Being able to pick up a new language (skill, technology, methodology, etc)
is IMO the most important skill for a developer to have. Pick it up quickly,
become proficient with it, leave it alone for a couple of
On 03/24/12 17:08, Tim Delaney wrote:
Absolutely. 10 years ago (when I was just a young lad) I'd say that I'd
*forgotten* at least 20 programming languages. That number has only
increased.
And in the case of COBOL for me, it wasn't just forgotten, but
actively repressed ;-)
-tkc
--
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Steve Howell showel...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Mar 22, 6:11 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
In any case, I'm not talking about the best developers. I'm talking about
the typical developer, who by definition is just average. They
On Mar 23, 12:05 am, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Steve Howell showel...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Mar 22, 6:11 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
In any case, I'm not talking about the best developers. I'm talking about
On Mar 22, 6:11 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:14:46 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 7:04 PM, Steve Howell showel...@yahoo.com wrote:
If you're that adept at learning languages, then I recommend learning
Ruby just for kicks, but you're not missing *that* much, trust me.
I'd skip past Ruby and learn CoffeeScript.
Sure. When I have some spare time...
Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
I confess--I've never learned LilyPond, Modula-2, or LPC! I mean, of
course they're on my resume, just to get by HR screening, but that's
just between you and me...
You mean, you, him, this mailing list, and anyone that looks on the
archives...
Ramit
Ramit Prasad | JPMorgan Chase
Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
I had forgotten all about that, I should add that to my resume!
I wonder what kind of job I could get writing primarily in Logo?
Ramit
Ramit Prasad | JPMorgan Chase Investment Bank | Currencies Technology
712 Main Street | Houston, TX 77002
work phone: 713
Nathan Rice wrote:
Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
+1 QOTW
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Ethan Furman wrote:
Nathan Rice wrote:
Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
+1 QOTW
Surely you're joking, Mr Furman!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 03/23/2012 02:28 PM, Peter Otten wrote:
Ethan Furman wrote:
Nathan Rice wrote:
Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
+1 QOTW
Surely you're joking, Mr Furman!
Cracking safes was the best chapter.
--
DaveA
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages
moderately well, if you include SQL and regexes as languages, and might
have a nodding acquaintance with one or two more.
I'm not entirely sure
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:14:46 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages moderately
well, if you include SQL and regexes as languages, and might have a
On Mar 22, 6:11 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:14:46 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
In any case, though, I agree that there's a lot of people professionally
writing code who would know about the 3-4 that you say. I'm just not
sure that
On Mar 22, 12:14 pm, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages
moderately well, if you include SQL and regexes as languages, and might
have a
81 matches
Mail list logo
