Re: posting code snippets
On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 09:16:35 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: You drag out the lab scope, logic analyzer, spectrum analyzer, sweep generator, strip plotter, and the machine that goes ping. You start to get everything set up to nail that problem securely to the dissecting board. Long before you actually get to that point, the problem becomes intimidated and reveals itself and a solution. *ALL* my machines go ping. It's fundamental to network debugging. I know that's not what you meant, but somehow it comes to the same thing. :) And yep. That is so absolutely right. Problems know when concealment becomes pointless. ChrisA As a maintenance engineer I find there is also an opposite factor in operation. Equipment manufacturers appear to include an Engineer Proximity Detector in all designs that cause the equipment to work flawlessly when triggered. The issue the customer has been complaining about incessantly never occurs whilst there is an engineer on site. -- We're out of slots on the server -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On Sunday 02 March 2014 07:05:06 Alister did opine: On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 09:16:35 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: You drag out the lab scope, logic analyzer, spectrum analyzer, sweep generator, strip plotter, and the machine that goes ping. You start to get everything set up to nail that problem securely to the dissecting board. Long before you actually get to that point, the problem becomes intimidated and reveals itself and a solution. *ALL* my machines go ping. It's fundamental to network debugging. I know that's not what you meant, but somehow it comes to the same thing. :) And yep. That is so absolutely right. Problems know when concealment becomes pointless. ChrisA As a maintenance engineer I find there is also an opposite factor in operation. Equipment manufacturers appear to include an Engineer Proximity Detector in all designs that cause the equipment to work flawlessly when triggered. The issue the customer has been complaining about incessantly never occurs whilst there is an engineer on site. Most sensitive when any cover has been opened. It took me 5 years to find an intermittent video insert problem in a piece of Chyron gear, and when I found it, I called the guy at Chyron whose name was on the schematic page and told him in no uncertain terms that the best part of him ran down his mothers leg. He'd used a spare gate in a quad nand gate package as an inverter, a common practice when you need just one more inverter in a design. Nothing at all wrong with the concept, but the idiot left one of the two inputs floating, disconnected. That is an absolute no-no in any digital logic circuit, and will bite somebody on the ass, repeatedly. And since I could only get at it for not more than 20 minutes at a time because of its duties, I am ashamed that it took me 5 years to find it when the fix was half an inch of wire wrapping wire to tie it to the other input pin. There is not a digital logic chip book on the planet that doesn't contain warnings about floating inputs. Yeah, I CAN be one of those to idiots. As Marion Morrison, aka John Wayne was fond of saying in his movies, stupidity should hurt. And this guy deserved to hurt. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene NOTICE: Will pay 100 USD for an HP-4815A defective but complete probe assembly. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On 2014-02-28, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: The problem does have to believe that the rubber duck/teddy bear/figurine is an expert, though. I've had my siblings or parents come to me with problems and, without saying a word or touching the computer or anything, I've solved them. The problem itself respects my skill, and retracts its objection and solves itself. The same thing works with expensive/complex test equipment instead of an expert. You drag out the lab scope, logic analyzer, spectrum analyzer, sweep generator, strip plotter, and the machine that goes ping. You start to get everything set up to nail that problem securely to the dissecting board. Long before you actually get to that point, the problem becomes intimidated and reveals itself and a solution. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! If our behavior is at strict, we do not need fun! gmail.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On Saturday 01 March 2014 16:52:44 Grant Edwards did opine: On 2014-02-28, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: The problem does have to believe that the rubber duck/teddy bear/figurine is an expert, though. I've had my siblings or parents come to me with problems and, without saying a word or touching the computer or anything, I've solved them. The problem itself respects my skill, and retracts its objection and solves itself. The same thing works with expensive/complex test equipment instead of an expert. You drag out the lab scope, logic analyzer, spectrum analyzer, sweep generator, strip plotter, and the machine that goes ping. You start to get everything set up to nail that problem securely to the dissecting board. Long before you actually get to that point, the problem becomes intimidated and reveals itself and a solution. Chuckle ;-) Is there not a Murphy's Law corollary on that, Grant? I have certainly been there and done that enough times to know its 100% true. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene NOTICE: Will pay 100 USD for an HP-4815A defective but complete probe assembly. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: You drag out the lab scope, logic analyzer, spectrum analyzer, sweep generator, strip plotter, and the machine that goes ping. You start to get everything set up to nail that problem securely to the dissecting board. Long before you actually get to that point, the problem becomes intimidated and reveals itself and a solution. *ALL* my machines go ping. It's fundamental to network debugging. I know that's not what you meant, but somehow it comes to the same thing. :) And yep. That is so absolutely right. Problems know when concealment becomes pointless. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
Grant Edwards wrote: You drag out the lab scope, logic analyzer, spectrum analyzer, sweep generator, strip plotter, and the machine that goes ping. You start to get everything set up to nail that problem securely to the dissecting board. Long before you actually get to that point, the problem becomes intimidated and reveals itself and a solution. No! No! Not the comfy spectrum analyser! I give up! -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
posting code snippets
hi folks, Its been too long... can't remember... are there rules here about posting code snippets, or length considerations, and so forth? Seems like there was a place to share code snips outside of the message area? A related question, is there a python repository for uploading py files, patches, suggestions, etc? What is the correct venue protocol for contributing code source? tnx... happy Thursday! -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Mark H. Harris harrismh...@gmail.com wrote: hi folks, Its been too long... can't remember... are there rules here about posting code snippets, or length considerations, and so forth? Seems like there was a place to share code snips outside of the message area? The convention is to post it in-line, just have it right there in the body of the email. There's no specific rule on length, but if it goes over a screenful or two, a lot of people won't bother to read it. Keeping the code in the message itself is the best way to carry it around. Not every transmission medium supports attachments, and they don't cut down on size in any way; and a link to an external resource creates a dependency. But if your code really is too long to be practical, you could post it to pastebin or somesuch. It's not as good as keeping it in the email, but it can work. Do try to make your code more consumable, though - posting a link to a thousand-line script is just as useless as embedding it, as nobody will bother to read through it. tnx... happy Thursday! I never could get the hang of Thursdays. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Mark H. Harris harrismh...@gmail.com wrote: hi folks, Its been too long... can't remember... are there rules here about posting code snippets, or length considerations, and so forth? Chris' advice about just posting your code inline with your message is good. If the problem is that you think your code is too long to post inline, you're probably right. That means it's probably also too long for people to give it much attention. If you really want people to help figure out what is going on with code you don't understand, the best thing to do is to post a Short, Self Contained, Correct Example (http://www.sscce.org/). That means cutting the code down to the bare minimum required to demonstrate your issue. Many times, the very act of cutting the code down to a digestible chunk will show you the problem without posting. And if you still don't understand what's going on, you're much more likely to get help when you present a problem that can be read in a single screenful or so of code. A related question, is there a python repository for uploading py files, patches, suggestions, etc? Assuming this goes beyond posting code for people on the list to look at, yes, there are lots of places to post python code. For short bits, Activestate has a repository of python recipes: http://code.activestate.com/recipes/langs/python/ For publishing full modules and packages, there's the python package index: https://pypi.python.org/pypi Patches, bugs and feature requests for the python language itself belong here: http://bugs.python.org/ attached to an appropriate tracker issue. Feature requests should probably be raised on the python-ideas mailing list (https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas) before opening an issue on the bug tracker. -- Jerry -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On Thursday, February 27, 2014 9:01:50 AM UTC-6, Jerry Hill wrote: -- Jerry Thanks guys, perfect. 'preciate it! -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On 2014-02-27 04:13, Mark H. Harris wrote: are there rules here about posting code snippets, or length considerations, and so forth? Seems like there was a place to share code snips outside of the message area? This is the internet, so you're welcome to post code as you please. However, be aware that - if it's on an external site, lots of potential respondants will shrug with an I ain't got time for that or assume that the code-pasting site won't keep the content around (possibly making answers useless/contextless in a couple years) and skip it - if it's inline but too long, lots of potential respondants will shrug with an I ain't got time for that and skip it, or flame you for filling their mailbox with junk People here on the list generally enjoy helping where they can, but are more likely to do so if you've made it as easy possible. So SSCCEs (as Chris Jerry mentioned) are your best hope of getting a useful friendly reply :-) -tkc -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
Mark H. Harris harrismh...@gmail.com writes: Its been too long... can't remember... are there rules here about posting code snippets, or length considerations, and so forth? Post your code in-line with your message. This is for the sake of the people whose time you're requesting, and of later readers who will find the thread when searching the archives — URLs to snippets are likely to be invalid later. Since you'll be posting the code in-line, make sure it's short. Since it'll be short, make sure it's complete — we should need nothing else to run the code and expect to see the same behaviour you're seeing. Since you'll be making it short, complete, and still demonstrating the behaviour, you may even get the result that you understand the cause of the behaviour before posting it. Everyone wins! :-) For these and other reasons, ensure the example you're showing us is a Simple, Self-Contained, Complete Example URL:http://www.sscce.org/ which demonstrates the issue you're asking about. A related question, is there a python repository for uploading py files, patches, suggestions, etc? The place to contribute patches and suggestions is to the project that maintains whatever it is your patch or suggestion is for. What code project are you wanting to contribute to? Look to the home page of that project, and see what resources it has for “Developers” etc. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On Thursday, February 27, 2014 4:15:16 PM UTC-6, Ben Finney wrote: Post your code in-line with your message. This is for the sake of the people whose time you're requesting, and of later readers who will find the thread when searching the archives -- URLs to snippets are likely to be invalid later. Thanks everyone for the great responses will do. I read this group frequently, but have not posted for quite some time for time and focus reasons. To tell you just how long, well, my isp withdrew the post service (nntp) from their server at end of 2011... and I didn't notice till now! ha! So, I'm not using seamonkey any longer... using google groups/ and that has been a fit to get used to, but I'm making progress. :-} Thanks again -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
Mark H. Harris harrismh...@gmail.com Wrote in message: my isp withdrew the post service (nntp) from their server at end of 2011... and I didn't notice till now! ha! So, I'm not using seamonkey any longer... using google groups/ and that has been a fit to get used to, but I'm making progress. You could still use nntp, if you switch to gmane.comp.python. -- DaveA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: posting code snippets
On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Since you'll be posting the code in-line, make sure it's short. Since it'll be short, make sure it's complete — we should need nothing else to run the code and expect to see the same behaviour you're seeing. Since you'll be making it short, complete, and still demonstrating the behaviour, you may even get the result that you understand the cause of the behaviour before posting it. Everyone wins! :-) Which is the scientific basis of the astonishingly successful (that is, it's astonishing to people who don't understand) debugging technique of Rubber Ducking, or talking to your teddy bear, or other variants of the subject. (I have a figurine from American McGee's Alice: Madness Returns who is extremely helpful to me. She's pretty, she's smart, and she's pretty smart.) By the time you've explained it to someone, you've boiled the problem down into a manageable form, and that often helps you solve the problem yourself. The problem does have to believe that the rubber duck/teddy bear/figurine is an expert, though. I've had my siblings or parents come to me with problems and, without saying a word or touching the computer or anything, I've solved them. The problem itself respects my skill, and retracts its objection and solves itself. Why this works I am not sure, but just remember to treat your teddy bear as an intelligent partner in the debugging process, not as an idiot who just gets in the way. He's a brilliant programmer from another dimension; he knows all about coding, but not about your code, so you have to explain its little oddities to him. (Or her. Female teddy bears are just as good at debugging as male ones are.) ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
