Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On 28/02/2011 09:40, Tim Golden wrote: Well, the last Svn commit was 4 weeks ago, by barton_c, and Python27 support (ie switches) were added 2 months ago. Looks like Barton_C needs to do some advertising. I'll see if I can contact him/her through sf. Got this reply from Barton, who's not subscribed to this list: Using the current state of the art, I freely mix wxPython, MS Framework 2.0 (others are hooking to .NET 4.0) and ctypes in full GUI apps and drivers. The current challenge for me is getting the whole thing working (together) on Ubuntu Maverick (10.10). I have brought the PythonDotNet project up to python27 compatibility, but have not published the binaries yet. TJG ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Tim Golden m...@timgolden.me.uk wrote: On 28/02/2011 09:40, Tim Golden wrote: Well, the last Svn commit was 4 weeks ago, by barton_c, and Python27 support (ie switches) were added 2 months ago. Looks like Barton_C needs to do some advertising. I'll see if I can contact him/her through sf. Got this reply from Barton, who's not subscribed to this list: since when is being subscribed a prerequisite to commenting? Using the current state of the art, I freely mix wxPython, MS Framework 2.0 (others are hooking to .NET 4.0) and ctypes in full GUI apps and drivers. The current challenge for me is getting the whole thing working (together) on Ubuntu Maverick (10.10). I have brought the PythonDotNet project up to python27 compatibility, but have not published the binaries yet. TJG ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32 -- According to theoretical physics, the division of spatial intervals as the universe evolves gives rise to the fact that in another timeline, your interdimensional counterpart received helpful advice from me...so be eternally pleased for them. ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On 01/03/2011 10:14, David Hutto wrote: On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Tim Goldenm...@timgolden.me.uk wrote: On 28/02/2011 09:40, Tim Golden wrote: Well, the last Svn commit was 4 weeks ago, by barton_c, and Python27 support (ie switches) were added 2 months ago. Looks like Barton_C needs to do some advertising. I'll see if I can contact him/her through sf. Got this reply from Barton, who's not subscribed to this list: since when is being subscribed a prerequisite to commenting? FWIW, I meant: ... and who had therefore not seen this discussion but, as a matter of fact, if a non-subscriber posts to this list, the post is held in a moderator's queue and has to be released explicitly. I've given him the information about this list, of which he was unaware so he can decide for himself whether to post or subscribe or whatever... TJG ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On 1 March 2011 07:44, Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.com wrote: From: Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz Octavian Rasnita wrote: From: Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz No, if I go this way, I would probably stop maintaining the current implementation. Oh, in that case imho I think this is a very bad idea. Can you elaborate on exactly what is bad about it, and suggest an alternative? Windows Forms - based apps have a few disadvantages: - First, the most important, and with no solution is that Win32 GUI widgets are much fast responsive than Windows Forms, I've written (quite large) desktop Windows Forms applications with .NET and just not found this to be the case - even when written with IronPython which isn't the fastest .NET language there is. and it is annoying to use Windows Forms - based apps with the keyboard; This need not be the case. You just need to set tab order and provide shortcuts. - Second, it is harder to create executables that include the support for DotNet, because it is not sure that DotNet is available. .NET is pretty ubiquitous these days - see other emails on the topic. The package should be either very big and include DotNet, Definitely not. or it should detect if it is not present and offer the possibility of downloading it from the web, but some computers are not connected to the internet...; Installers can detect this and provide a link. - Windows Forms offer very many accessibility features for screen readers, however this GUI is *always* less accessible than the standard Win32 widgets for those who need to use a screen reader. Evidence for this? - I think there are solutions for making Windows Forms - based apps already, and they can be used if somebody prefers to use this GUI, so it wouldn't be a good idea to dupplicate it and offer the same interface. The point is for writing *cross platform* applications that just happen to use Windows Forms on Windows. All the best, Michael Foord The standard Windows GUI API is severely crippled compared to what is available natively in Cocoa and Gtk. The only alternatives I see at the moment are: * Allow Windows to hold back the development of PyGUI on all the other platforms. * Implement the missing functionality on Windows in pure Python -- a lot of work, and probably not practical for something complex such as a rich text or HTML widget. * Rely on a third party library to supply the missing functionality on Windows. -- Greg I don't know which of these ways would be the most simple to implement, but it is true that it will be more difficult, because I've seen how these problems were solved in other GUIs like wxWIDGETS and SWT. wxWIDGETS offers custom widgets for those which are not offered by the standard Win32 API, but most of them are badly made with no corresponding accessibility features, and if those widgets are used in an application, they could steal the focus or make other problems that make the whole application not accessible for those who use a screen reader. So a better solution than the one offered by wxWIDGETS would mean much more work. In SWT, as far as I know, those widgets which are not offered by the Win32 API are not offered at all, but I am not sure, so others who may know more can comment. But if this is true, this is not an extraordinary solution either. However, I don't know if the focus should be to offer all the possible widget types under all platforms, because now there are more and more platforms considered, like different kind of PDAs and mobile phones, and it would probably be very hard or impossible to offer a GUI that can do everything everywhere. Octavian ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32 -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On 28/02/2011 05:01, Vernon Cole wrote: Hmmm... projects get abandoned for many reasons. Michael: In your professional opinion would it be worthwhile to clone/fork/resurrect the pythonnet project, or is it a bad idea better left dead? Well, the last Svn commit was 4 weeks ago, by barton_c, and Python27 support (ie switches) were added 2 months ago. Looks like Barton_C needs to do some advertising. I'll see if I can contact him/her through sf. I've just pulled the source code down; I'll see if I can get it to build against the Python27 repo. (When I get the time...) FWIW, I have used it successfully, if trivially, to employ SQL-SMO to script off my database. This (rather than IronPython) because I have an existing investment in the CPython svn bindings. (In short: pragmatism beats purity). TJG ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On 28/02/2011 09:40, Tim Golden wrote: On 28/02/2011 05:01, Vernon Cole wrote: Hmmm... projects get abandoned for many reasons. Michael: In your professional opinion would it be worthwhile to clone/fork/resurrect the pythonnet project, or is it a bad idea better left dead? ... and what I meant to add was: Python.NET seems to sit in an awkward place in the ecosystem. Its niche seems to be: where you want a small bit of .NET technology (such as SQL-SMO in my case) but don't want to migrate any win-specific Python code. (ie stuff relying on pywin32) If you wanted lots of .NET stuff or if you only have pure Python code you'd probably use IronPython . TJG ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On 28 February 2011 05:01, Vernon Cole vernondc...@gmail.com wrote: Hmmm... projects get abandoned for many reasons. Michael: In your professional opinion would it be worthwhile to clone/fork/resurrect the pythonnet project, or is it a bad idea better left dead? Python.NET is a great project. Michael -- Vernon On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Michael Foord fuzzy...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 February 2011 20:31, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nzwrote: Until recently I didn't think it was possible to use .NET libraries from CPython, but then I came across this: http://pythonnet.sourceforge.net/ Using this, it looks like it should be possible to create a PyGUI implementation based on Windows Forms. This has the potential to solve a number of headaches, as it appears to be a considerably more capable library than base win32. The downside is that 2k and XP users may need to install a .NET runtime. How would people feel about that? Python.NET is currently not maintained. Michael Foord -- Greg ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32 -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32 -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
So with pythoncom on one hand and pywin32 on ironclad on the other you could go either way on either compiler? Sounds pretty neat. Is pythoncom python3 ready? (I haven't looked at source yet. Vernon Cole (sent from my 'droid phone) On Feb 28, 2011 2:58 AM, Tim Golden m...@timgolden.me.uk wrote: On 28/02/2011 09:40, Tim Golden wrote: On 28/02/2011 05:01, Vernon Cole wrote: Hmmm... pro... ... and what I meant to add was: Python.NET seems to sit in an awkward place in the ecosystem. Its niche seems to be: where you want a small bit of .NET technology (such as SQL-SMO in my case) but don't want to migrate any win-specific Python code. (ie stuff relying on pywin32) If you wanted lots of .NET stuff or if you only have pure Python code you'd probably use IronPython . TJG ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org h... ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On 28/02/2011 4:33 PM, Vernon Cole wrote: So with pythoncom on one hand and pywin32 on ironclad on the other you could go either way on either compiler? Sounds pretty neat. Is pythoncom python3 ready? (I haven't looked at source yet. Certainly is. I've had my wmi module running against it for a while now. TJG ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
Greg Ewing wrote: The downside is that 2k and XP users may need to install a .NET runtime. How would people feel about that? Most XP users have long ago had 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5 runtimes pushed to their systems through service packs and updates. For 2000, the run-time installation is not very painful. -- Tim Roberts, t...@probo.com Providenza Boekelheide, Inc. ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
Klonuo wrote: No, if I go this way, I would probably stop maintaining the current implementation. I don't want to have to support two backends on Windows, and some of the things I intend to do with Windows Forms would be impractical to do using the raw Win32 API. With all due respect to maintainers of .NET connectors, but this kind of thinking is one of the main reasons why I'm always avoiding any kind of .NET application - in majority they are suboptimal on several scales and give developers freedom to do things they shouldn't, by abusing precious resources. That depends entirely on what resources you value. It is much quicker to develop .NET applications than it is to write straight to the API, in part because the CLR support is so vast. My time is WAY more valuable than my computer's time. I paid for 4GB of memory in my computer. Memory that is not being used is simply being wasted. I still do most of my programming in C++ because I like having control, but there is nothing wrong with .NET. -- Tim Roberts, t...@probo.com Providenza Boekelheide, Inc. ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
Octavian Rasnita wrote: From: Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz No, if I go this way, I would probably stop maintaining the current implementation. Oh, in that case imho I think this is a very bad idea. Can you elaborate on exactly what is bad about it, and suggest an alternative? The standard Windows GUI API is severely crippled compared to what is available natively in Cocoa and Gtk. The only alternatives I see at the moment are: * Allow Windows to hold back the development of PyGUI on all the other platforms. * Implement the missing functionality on Windows in pure Python -- a lot of work, and probably not practical for something complex such as a rich text or HTML widget. * Rely on a third party library to supply the missing functionality on Windows. -- Greg ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
Tim Golden wrote: Python.NET seems to sit in an awkward place in the ecosystem. Its niche seems to be: where you want a small bit of .NET technology (such as SQL-SMO in my case) but don't want to migrate any win-specific Python code. (ie stuff relying on pywin32) Or, as in my case, you are developing a library and want to make use of some .NET technology, but don't want to force all the users of your library to use a non-standard Python implementation. -- Greg ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
From: Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz From: Octavian Rasnita [mailto:orasn...@gmail.com] If it will still be possible to use the standard Win32 GUI, it is OK to be able to use Windows Forms as an adition. No, if I go this way, I would probably stop maintaining the current implementation. I don't want to have to support two backends on Windows, and some of the things I intend to do with Windows Forms would be impractical to do using the raw Win32 API. -- Greg Oh, in that case imho I think this is a very bad idea. Octavian ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
On 26 February 2011 20:31, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote: Until recently I didn't think it was possible to use .NET libraries from CPython, but then I came across this: http://pythonnet.sourceforge.net/ Using this, it looks like it should be possible to create a PyGUI implementation based on Windows Forms. This has the potential to solve a number of headaches, as it appears to be a considerably more capable library than base win32. The downside is that 2k and XP users may need to install a .NET runtime. How would people feel about that? Python.NET is currently not maintained. Michael Foord -- Greg ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32 -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
Hmmm... projects get abandoned for many reasons. Michael: In your professional opinion would it be worthwhile to clone/fork/resurrect the pythonnet project, or is it a bad idea better left dead? -- Vernon On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Michael Foord fuzzy...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 February 2011 20:31, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote: Until recently I didn't think it was possible to use .NET libraries from CPython, but then I came across this: http://pythonnet.sourceforge.net/ Using this, it looks like it should be possible to create a PyGUI implementation based on Windows Forms. This has the potential to solve a number of headaches, as it appears to be a considerably more capable library than base win32. The downside is that 2k and XP users may need to install a .NET runtime. How would people feel about that? Python.NET is currently not maintained. Michael Foord -- Greg ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32 -- http://www.voidspace.org.uk/ May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give. -- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32 ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
Re: [python-win32] Possible future direction for PyGUI on Win32
From: Octavian Rasnita [mailto:orasn...@gmail.com] If it will still be possible to use the standard Win32 GUI, it is OK to be able to use Windows Forms as an adition. No, if I go this way, I would probably stop maintaining the current implementation. I don't want to have to support two backends on Windows, and some of the things I intend to do with Windows Forms would be impractical to do using the raw Win32 API. -- Greg This email may be confidential and subject to legal privilege, it may not reflect the views of the University of Canterbury, and it is not guaranteed to be virus free. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and erase all copies of the message and any attachments. Please refer to http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/emaildisclaimer for more information. ___ python-win32 mailing list python-win32@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32
