Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-28 Thread Sandro Santilli 
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 10:31:42AM +1000, Nyall Dawson wrote:

> And I have no clue what the actual mantra is.

Just for completeness: the mantra is written in a wiki page only
readable by selected users. The URL below will be a 404 to anyone
not signed in *and* part of such group:

 https://git.osgeo.org/gogs/sac/userid-mantra/wiki

The team is currently composed by 12 people, at least 3 of which
I recognize as QGIS committers. The group is open so I invite
anyone from the core QGIS team to apply for being part of it.

Just let me know with a private email and I'll add you (or file
a trac ticket).
NOTE: you log into the Gogs service with your existing OSGeo UserID.

Note that users are not forced to hop on IRC but can as well
use email, in which case the mail they send is read again by
a subset of the people who have read access to the userid-mantra
wiki, that are those who agreed to respond to those mails.

If anyone here wants to help in responding those mails, again
let me know (or file a trac ticket).

--strk;
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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-28 Thread Matthias Kuhn 
Hi

I really like the idea of having an osgeo infrastructure that is built
on top of an open source stack and gives a user a single login on all
infrastructure.

The problem seems to be, that it's just very few people taking care of
it and this situation makes it very hard to maintain a good
infrastructure. I would really appreciate if UX received more attention
also in this context (I actually think it's really important that it does).

This discussion fits with my experience so far, it seems to be quite
complicated to get up and running with the current system.

Personally I would not mind moving to a different provider if it makes
maintenance easier and improves UX.

Of course, keeping it hard to sign up reduces the amount of reported
issues. The question is if it's actually a good filter that reduces
noise. I have the feeling that we should rather encourage users to write
better reports by providing them with the required information at the
time they are writing the bug. See e.g. how we do for QField [1] with a
template and a link to the guidelines on top.

Thanks for all the good comments in this dicussion!
Matthias

[1] https://github.com/opengisch/QField/issues/new
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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-28 Thread Richard Duivenvoorde 

On 28-11-16 10:36, Raymond Nijssen wrote:

This is very recognizable, Nyall!

What are the options? Do other open source software projects have more
user friendly systems for this? We could ask osgeo to implement it.


Hi Raymond,

the point is not to come up with options, those are there enough. Strk 
even put one in place (Gogs [0]). Problem is/was:


- the inability to come to a consensus which one to use
- the inability to determine if we need to keep history when moving to
- responsible people to actually DO it (and handle the critics that come 
from people who would have decided to do it otherways)


Regards,

Richard

[0] https://git.osgeo.org/gogs/

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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-28 Thread Richard Duivenvoorde 

On 2016-11-28 01:31, Nyall Dawson wrote:


End result - no report filed, I can't remember what his suggestion
was, he's left thinking open-source is complex and not beginner
friendly, and I'm left embarrassed because I can't even help him file
a ticket (let alone get it fixed!).

I realise that the current setup was done by hard working volunteers,
and I applaud their efforts, but the sad truth is that it's just not
working anymore and we need a better solution. :(


Hi Nyall,

Myself I'm not so much against moving to GH issues to be honest, 
although I'm scared of the number of issues already coming in and our 
(in my view aparent) inability to handle those...


My fear (and some experience) is that the average 'user' is very eager 
to let us know his/her problem, but is not very eager to do any follow 
up work: he/she just want's it fixed. Which is good and valid, but I'm 
not sure if it fit's in our current infrastructure. Maybe I'm too 
cynical but handling hundreds of half-baken/nontech issues is where you 
leave fun/volunteer work and make it paid/not-so-fun work. But maybe I'm 
plain wrong and we should 'just do it', growing pains will show up 
anyway :-)
The vast income of nice features (which is GOOD) also seems to come with 
a lot of issues we have to handle problems with super basic GIS stuff 
(hanlding shapes/data, OGR problems, simple algorithms like 
buffering/dissolve not working correctly etc etc).
We (well... you and other devs already do) should really concentrate a 
lot on testing and quality.
Can we make this a (more important) part of QGIS 3 too? Maybe by 
cleaning up some smelling code places (looking at the QGIS startup 
process here etc etc)...


In short: it is important to keep changing/discussing these things and I 
hope the new QGIS-association is able to handle all this in a way both 
devs as users stay a happy family.


Regards,

Richard




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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-28 Thread Raymond Nijssen 

This is very recognizable, Nyall!

What are the options? Do other open source software projects have more 
user friendly systems for this? We could ask osgeo to implement it.


Raymond


On 28-11-16 01:31, Nyall Dawson wrote:

On 27 November 2016 at 21:33, Bernd Vogelgesang
 wrote:


As long as the developers are happy with the tools, I don't care, but
assistance from ordinary users in some form is not so likely as well.



Actually, truth is a lot of developers are not happy with the osgeo
auth integration. Eg me.

I was recently in a discussion about qgis with a co-worker who had a
small suggestion about how we could improve the software. I thought
this was the perfect time to show him how to file a feature request in
the hope that doing so would help him understand better about how open
source works and how he can get involved.

So I show him hub, then watch in total embarrassment as he struggles
to find out how to register for the site. And then when he finds out
how to get to the registration page, he's asked for a "mantra".
Obviously, he has no idea what this is, and turns to ask me about it.
And I have no clue what the actual mantra is. And I know that trying
to explain to him something like "ok, now you go to irc and find
someone on this channel who knows that magic phrase..." is totally
pointless and he'll never do that.

End result - no report filed, I can't remember what his suggestion
was, he's left thinking open-source is complex and not beginner
friendly, and I'm left embarrassed because I can't even help him file
a ticket (let alone get it fixed!).

I realise that the current setup was done by hard working volunteers,
and I applaud their efforts, but the sad truth is that it's just not
working anymore and we need a better solution. :(

Nyall








 > Let me know if you have a problem resetting your password (though I


cannot reset it for you either...), then we figure out another way to
issue your problem.

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde




Cheers
Bernd




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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-27 Thread Lene Fischer 
Nyall - Spot on!

Lene

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: Qgis-developer [mailto:qgis-developer-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] På vegne af 
Nyall Dawson
Sendt: 28. november 2016 01:32
Til: Bernd Vogelgesang <bernd.vogelges...@gmx.de>
Cc: Richard Duivenvoorde <rich...@duif.net>; qgis-developer 
<qgis-developer@lists.osgeo.org>
Emne: Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

On 27 November 2016 at 21:33, Bernd Vogelgesang <bernd.vogelges...@gmx.de> 
wrote:

> As long as the developers are happy with the tools, I don't care, but 
> assistance from ordinary users in some form is not so likely as well.


Actually, truth is a lot of developers are not happy with the osgeo auth 
integration. Eg me.

I was recently in a discussion about qgis with a co-worker who had a small 
suggestion about how we could improve the software. I thought this was the 
perfect time to show him how to file a feature request in the hope that doing 
so would help him understand better about how open source works and how he can 
get involved.

So I show him hub, then watch in total embarrassment as he struggles to find 
out how to register for the site. And then when he finds out how to get to the 
registration page, he's asked for a "mantra".
Obviously, he has no idea what this is, and turns to ask me about it.
And I have no clue what the actual mantra is. And I know that trying to explain 
to him something like "ok, now you go to irc and find someone on this channel 
who knows that magic phrase..." is totally pointless and he'll never do that.

End result - no report filed, I can't remember what his suggestion was, he's 
left thinking open-source is complex and not beginner friendly, and I'm left 
embarrassed because I can't even help him file a ticket (let alone get it 
fixed!).

I realise that the current setup was done by hard working volunteers, and I 
applaud their efforts, but the sad truth is that it's just not working anymore 
and we need a better solution. :(

Nyall





>
>
>  > Let me know if you have a problem resetting your password (though I
>>
>> cannot reset it for you either...), then we figure out another way to 
>> issue your problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Richard Duivenvoorde
>
>
>
> Cheers
> Bernd
>
>
>>
>> ___
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>> List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
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>
>
>
> --
> Bernd Vogelgesang
> Siedlerstraße 2
> 91083 Baiersdorf/Igelsdorf
> Tel: 09133-825374
>
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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-27 Thread Nyall Dawson 
On 27 November 2016 at 21:33, Bernd Vogelgesang
 wrote:

> As long as the developers are happy with the tools, I don't care, but
> assistance from ordinary users in some form is not so likely as well.


Actually, truth is a lot of developers are not happy with the osgeo
auth integration. Eg me.

I was recently in a discussion about qgis with a co-worker who had a
small suggestion about how we could improve the software. I thought
this was the perfect time to show him how to file a feature request in
the hope that doing so would help him understand better about how open
source works and how he can get involved.

So I show him hub, then watch in total embarrassment as he struggles
to find out how to register for the site. And then when he finds out
how to get to the registration page, he's asked for a "mantra".
Obviously, he has no idea what this is, and turns to ask me about it.
And I have no clue what the actual mantra is. And I know that trying
to explain to him something like "ok, now you go to irc and find
someone on this channel who knows that magic phrase..." is totally
pointless and he'll never do that.

End result - no report filed, I can't remember what his suggestion
was, he's left thinking open-source is complex and not beginner
friendly, and I'm left embarrassed because I can't even help him file
a ticket (let alone get it fixed!).

I realise that the current setup was done by hard working volunteers,
and I applaud their efforts, but the sad truth is that it's just not
working anymore and we need a better solution. :(

Nyall





>
>
>  > Let me know if you have a problem resetting your password (though I
>>
>> cannot reset it for you either...), then we figure out another way to
>> issue your problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Richard Duivenvoorde
>
>
>
> Cheers
> Bernd
>
>
>>
>> ___
>> Qgis-developer mailing list
>> Qgis-developer@lists.osgeo.org
>> List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
>
>
> --
> Bernd Vogelgesang
> Siedlerstraße 2
> 91083 Baiersdorf/Igelsdorf
> Tel: 09133-825374
>
> ___
> Qgis-developer mailing list
> Qgis-developer@lists.osgeo.org
> List info: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-27 Thread Bernd Vogelgesang 

Hi,

Am 27.11.2016, 11:50 Uhr, schrieb Richard Duivenvoorde  
:



On 27-11-16 09:01, Lene Fischer wrote:

Hi,

I want to report issues at http://hub.qgis.org/ - but I have forgot my
username/password.

So now I´m in a catch22 – There is no way to get a new password – I
can´t find a way to create a new login –

Do we want users to report issues – yes/no ?

If yes – it must be much easier to access a platform. Right now it is
only for hardcore users who are really good at remembering passwords….


Hi Lene,

Short story: see below to reset your password:
https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Osgeo_Userid_Help

Long story: we use osgeo-user id's (and ldap for it) because then you do  
not need to remember even more passwords :-)
We could have easier QGIS password infrastructure but in my view we  
shouldn't want this: it is better if we unite as geoFOSS community in  
both infrastructure and use of standards.


I understand that it is very efficient and clever to use an existing  
infrastructure. But this infrastructure is set up in a typical "nerdish"  
way, so we have quite some barriers for non-nerds.


Besides this, you need some determination to create an issue anyway as  
it is best if the issuer keeps monitoring the issue and reacts on  
questions from devs...




There is really the danger that the issues are misused as a helpdesk by  
users for minor stuff if it is better accessible.
But when you do not use the issues regularly, it is hard and time  
consuming filing a new one. The search for already existing issues is not  
easy. Obviously the default settings when filing a issue is, that you do  
NOT get a message when someone replies on the issue, which makes the tool  
quite useless for the lots of people who naturally expect to be subscribed  
to the thread automatically.


I rarely file bugs, though I now subscribed to all issues to at least have  
a chance to get an overview. There is huge discrepancy between what I can  
read in the mailing lists and in the reported issues. So e.g. I was really  
surprised by Giovannis yesterdays issues about regressions of OGR in the  
toolbox for LTR but haven't read anything about this somewhere before.
People already seem to accept that things are broken and silently search  
for alternatives and workarounds.


As long as the developers are happy with the tools, I don't care, but  
assistance from ordinary users in some form is not so likely as well.



 > Let me know if you have a problem resetting your password (though I
cannot reset it for you either...), then we figure out another way to  
issue your problem.


Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde



Cheers
Bernd




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--
Bernd Vogelgesang
Siedlerstraße 2
91083 Baiersdorf/Igelsdorf
Tel: 09133-825374
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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-27 Thread Richard Duivenvoorde 

On 27-11-16 09:01, Lene Fischer wrote:

Hi,

I want to report issues at http://hub.qgis.org/ - but I have forgot my
username/password.

So now I´m in a catch22 – There is no way to get a new password – I
can´t find a way to create a new login –

Do we want users to report issues – yes/no ?

If yes – it must be much easier to access a platform. Right now it is
only for hardcore users who are really good at remembering passwords….


Hi Lene,

Short story: see below to reset your password:
https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Osgeo_Userid_Help

Long story: we use osgeo-user id's (and ldap for it) because then you do 
not need to remember even more passwords :-)
We could have easier QGIS password infrastructure but in my view we 
shouldn't want this: it is better if we unite as geoFOSS community in 
both infrastructure and use of standards.


Besides this, you need some determination to create an issue anyway as 
it is best if the issuer keeps monitoring the issue and reacts on 
questions from devs...


Let me know if you have a problem resetting your password (though I 
cannot reset it for you either...), then we figure out another way to 
issue your problem.


Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde


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Re: [Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-27 Thread Sandro Santilli 
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 08:01:28AM +, Lene Fischer wrote:
> Hi,
> I want to report issues at http://hub.qgis.org/ - but I have forgot my 
> username/password.
> 
> So now I´m in a catch22 – There is no way to get a new password – I can´t 
> find a way to create a new login –

There *is* a way, check out http://www.osgeo.org/osgeo_userid (search
for "password reset").

> Right now it is only for hardcore users who are really good at
> remembering passwords….

The whole internet is like that lately, isn't it ? :)

--strk;
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[Qgis-developer] Reporting an issue at http://hub.qgis.org/

2016-11-27 Thread Lene Fischer 
Hi,
I want to report issues at http://hub.qgis.org/ - but I have forgot my 
username/password.

So now I´m in a catch22 – There is no way to get a new password – I can´t find 
a way to create a new login –

Do we want users to report issues – yes/no ?

If yes – it must be much easier to access a platform. Right now it is only for 
hardcore users who are really good at remembering passwords….

Regards


Lene Fischer
Associate Professor

University of Copenhagen
Department of Geoscience and Natural Resource Management
Forest and Landscape College
Nødebovej 77a
3480 Fredensborg
Denmark


DIR +45 35331579
MOB +45 40115084
l...@ign.ku.dk
www.ign.ku.dk


[cid:image001.gif@01D2488C.D5B313B0]





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