Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
Hi guys, having default colors is really nice, great to see some work there. But aren't we in a feature freeze period.? I plead for the great "release often" mantra that we tend to forget these times. 4 months between two releases is fairly short most users can live without perfect random colors. 3.0 is not the holy grail, we'll have plenty of time for new fun features in the future. To be more crude, I see no fun in building a gigantic pile of untested new features. Please also listen the complaints of the documentation team, but also of the silent clients who try to build there IT plans on QGIS. Sorry for that, I like when it's fun, but this time, I really don't get what makes it critical to do this now, and not within a months in 3.1 branch. Regards Régis 2018-02-05 5:48 GMT+01:00 Nyall Dawson : > On 3 February 2018 at 19:04, Raymond Nijssen > wrote: > > > I think those colors should be: > > - not too dark (too close to black) > > - not too close to grey > > - not bright yellow, since this is the selection color > > Totally agree > > > Another thought here, for polygons I find myself changing the standard > black > > outline to a darker and opaque version of the fill color. And often I > prefer > > using a transparent fill color cause it makes it much easier to viewing > > results on the background map. Could this be the default or an option? > > Me too. However - I don't think this should be default behavior. The > reason is that if we make the initial outline color a non-desaturated > color (say dark blue if a polygon layer is assigned a blue fill > color), then this outline color is kept whenever a > categorized/graduated style is applied to the layer. So you'd end up > with classes with different colors (say red/green/yellow) having a > dark blue outline color. This is going to be ugly, yet a lot of users > may not notice AND even if they do it's non-trivial to change this for > new QGIS users. > > So I'd rather stick with the safer option and keep the > "make-the-outline-a-darker-version-of-the-fill" as an advanced users > tweak. > > Nyall > ___ > QGIS-Developer mailing list > QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer > ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
On 3 February 2018 at 19:04, Raymond Nijssen wrote: > I think those colors should be: > - not too dark (too close to black) > - not too close to grey > - not bright yellow, since this is the selection color Totally agree > Another thought here, for polygons I find myself changing the standard black > outline to a darker and opaque version of the fill color. And often I prefer > using a transparent fill color cause it makes it much easier to viewing > results on the background map. Could this be the default or an option? Me too. However - I don't think this should be default behavior. The reason is that if we make the initial outline color a non-desaturated color (say dark blue if a polygon layer is assigned a blue fill color), then this outline color is kept whenever a categorized/graduated style is applied to the layer. So you'd end up with classes with different colors (say red/green/yellow) having a dark blue outline color. This is going to be ugly, yet a lot of users may not notice AND even if they do it's non-trivial to change this for new QGIS users. So I'd rather stick with the safer option and keep the "make-the-outline-a-darker-version-of-the-fill" as an advanced users tweak. Nyall ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
On 03-02-18 23:19, Nyall Dawson wrote: >> Plan sounds great, but I think we should not try to do this for 3.0. >> The old 'random' colors are ok for now, there are really too much issues >> in current master to fix, which will affect average users. > The difference is - fixing the default color assignment is a FUN > project, and something I'm motivated to tackle before release. > > On the contrast... if I have to look at any more Python binding > issues/memory leaks/object conversion code, I'm likely to end up in a > catatonic state and be no use to anyone! Ok, then go go.. let there be love and colors all over QGIS :-) ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
In this case I'd say: go for it, and have fun! Thanks a lot. Il 3 febbraio 2018 22:19:57 WET, Nyall Dawson ha scritto: >On 3 February 2018 at 19:17, Richard Duivenvoorde >wrote: >> On 03-02-18 05:17, Nyall Dawson wrote: >>> Coincidentally, Mathieu and I have been speaking this week about >>> approaches to improve the random colors picked for layers. We came >up >>> with a similar approach: >>> >>> - find a palette of ~100 colors which we think look good for layers, >>> and remove gross colors from this >>> - include this palette as an additional pre-installed color palette >>> within the standard QGIS install >>> - on startup, pick a random starting color from this list and a >random >>> direction (forward or backward). When adding layers, grab this color >>> for the layer and then jump to the next/previous color in the preset >>> palette for the next layer added. >>> - (for 3.2 : allow users to pick which palette to use for new layer >colors) >>> >>> How's this sound? I'd love to address this for 3.0 - our default >>> random color selection often picks yuck colors, and I think it'd be >>> great if 3.0 "magically" produced nicer looking maps for users >without >>> any work required by them! >> >> Plan sounds great, but I think we should not try to do this for 3.0. >> The old 'random' colors are ok for now, there are really too much >issues >> in current master to fix, which will affect average users. > >The difference is - fixing the default color assignment is a FUN >project, and something I'm motivated to tackle before release. > >On the contrast... if I have to look at any more Python binding >issues/memory leaks/object conversion code, I'm likely to end up in a >catatonic state and be no use to anyone! > >So for me at least the choice isn't between fixing the random colors >vs fixing a crash - it's fixing the random colors vs not fixing them. > >Nyall > >> >> Yesterday I hit crashes (#18019), freezes (#18032) and failures to >save >> as gpkg (#17899). It is better for the project (I think) if we clean >up >> this kind of user experiences first :-) >> I know I started this color discussion, but still... >> >> I encourage everybody on this list to start using 2.99/3.0 and try to >> confirm or invalidate issues from the issue list. We really need to >test >> for usability. >> >> Regards & thanks for all the hard work and great ideas people!! >> >> Richard Duivenvoorde >___ >QGIS-Developer mailing list >QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org >List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer >Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer -- Sorry for being short___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
On 3 February 2018 at 19:17, Richard Duivenvoorde wrote: > Yesterday I hit crashes (#18019), freezes (#18032) and failures to save > as gpkg (#17899). It is better for the project (I think) if we clean up > this kind of user experiences first :-) > I know I started this color discussion, but still... Also for reference: - #18019 is fixed now (https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/commit/be6674b8196f1c59e619b4bbe5f9394f163a62c8) - #18032 is not reproducable, but Denis is working on a fix anyway (https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/6256) - #17899 is... maybe a QGIS issue, maybe an upstream (GDAL) issue. Can I request you discuss this on the gdal list and see if it's something we need to fix or not? Nyall ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
On 3 February 2018 at 19:17, Richard Duivenvoorde wrote: > On 03-02-18 05:17, Nyall Dawson wrote: >> Coincidentally, Mathieu and I have been speaking this week about >> approaches to improve the random colors picked for layers. We came up >> with a similar approach: >> >> - find a palette of ~100 colors which we think look good for layers, >> and remove gross colors from this >> - include this palette as an additional pre-installed color palette >> within the standard QGIS install >> - on startup, pick a random starting color from this list and a random >> direction (forward or backward). When adding layers, grab this color >> for the layer and then jump to the next/previous color in the preset >> palette for the next layer added. >> - (for 3.2 : allow users to pick which palette to use for new layer colors) >> >> How's this sound? I'd love to address this for 3.0 - our default >> random color selection often picks yuck colors, and I think it'd be >> great if 3.0 "magically" produced nicer looking maps for users without >> any work required by them! > > Plan sounds great, but I think we should not try to do this for 3.0. > The old 'random' colors are ok for now, there are really too much issues > in current master to fix, which will affect average users. The difference is - fixing the default color assignment is a FUN project, and something I'm motivated to tackle before release. On the contrast... if I have to look at any more Python binding issues/memory leaks/object conversion code, I'm likely to end up in a catatonic state and be no use to anyone! So for me at least the choice isn't between fixing the random colors vs fixing a crash - it's fixing the random colors vs not fixing them. Nyall > > Yesterday I hit crashes (#18019), freezes (#18032) and failures to save > as gpkg (#17899). It is better for the project (I think) if we clean up > this kind of user experiences first :-) > I know I started this color discussion, but still... > > I encourage everybody on this list to start using 2.99/3.0 and try to > confirm or invalidate issues from the issue list. We really need to test > for usability. > > Regards & thanks for all the hard work and great ideas people!! > > Richard Duivenvoorde ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
On 03-02-18 05:17, Nyall Dawson wrote: > Coincidentally, Mathieu and I have been speaking this week about > approaches to improve the random colors picked for layers. We came up > with a similar approach: > > - find a palette of ~100 colors which we think look good for layers, > and remove gross colors from this > - include this palette as an additional pre-installed color palette > within the standard QGIS install > - on startup, pick a random starting color from this list and a random > direction (forward or backward). When adding layers, grab this color > for the layer and then jump to the next/previous color in the preset > palette for the next layer added. > - (for 3.2 : allow users to pick which palette to use for new layer colors) > > How's this sound? I'd love to address this for 3.0 - our default > random color selection often picks yuck colors, and I think it'd be > great if 3.0 "magically" produced nicer looking maps for users without > any work required by them! Plan sounds great, but I think we should not try to do this for 3.0. The old 'random' colors are ok for now, there are really too much issues in current master to fix, which will affect average users. Yesterday I hit crashes (#18019), freezes (#18032) and failures to save as gpkg (#17899). It is better for the project (I think) if we clean up this kind of user experiences first :-) I know I started this color discussion, but still... I encourage everybody on this list to start using 2.99/3.0 and try to confirm or invalidate issues from the issue list. We really need to test for usability. Regards & thanks for all the hard work and great ideas people!! Richard Duivenvoorde ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
Il 03/02/2018 09:04, Raymond Nijssen ha scritto: > I think those colors should be: > - not too dark (too close to black) > - not too close to grey > - not bright yellow, since this is the selection color > > Another thought here, for polygons I find myself changing the standard > black outline to a darker and opaque version of the fill color. And > often I prefer using a transparent fill color cause it makes it much > easier to viewing results on the background map. Could this be the > default or an option? agreed fully. only transparency may not be suitable as a default, as it might (?) slow down rendering. All the best. -- Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu QGIS & PostGIS courses: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=IT&q=qgis,arcgis ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
Hi Nyall, Great idea to improve those random colors! This could also be a function instead of a palette in my opinion. I even guess it already is, since I think qgis stopped using very dark random colors a while ago. I think those colors should be: - not too dark (too close to black) - not too close to grey - not bright yellow, since this is the selection color Another thought here, for polygons I find myself changing the standard black outline to a darker and opaque version of the fill color. And often I prefer using a transparent fill color cause it makes it much easier to viewing results on the background map. Could this be the default or an option? Or should I just wait for qgis 3.2 and add create a palette for this? :) Regards, Raymond On 03-02-18 05:17, Nyall Dawson wrote: On 2 February 2018 at 21:52, Richard Duivenvoorde wrote: Somebody (Raymond ;-) ) 'complained' to me that running a processing algorithm everytime comes up with an (ugly) brown style. I've noticed this too - but had assumed it was just some setting I'd changed locally. It's fixed by https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/6254 BUT Coincidentally, Mathieu and I have been speaking this week about approaches to improve the random colors picked for layers. We came up with a similar approach: - find a palette of ~100 colors which we think look good for layers, and remove gross colors from this - include this palette as an additional pre-installed color palette within the standard QGIS install - on startup, pick a random starting color from this list and a random direction (forward or backward). When adding layers, grab this color for the layer and then jump to the next/previous color in the preset palette for the next layer added. - (for 3.2 : allow users to pick which palette to use for new layer colors) How's this sound? I'd love to address this for 3.0 - our default random color selection often picks yuck colors, and I think it'd be great if 3.0 "magically" produced nicer looking maps for users without any work required by them! Nyall ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
Hi Nyyall, Il 03/02/2018 04:17, Nyall Dawson ha scritto: > How's this sound? I'd love to address this for 3.0 - our default > random color selection often picks yuck colors, and I think it'd be > great if 3.0 "magically" produced nicer looking maps for users without > any work required by them! agreed, this would be a very good improvement. Of course choice of the palette will be important for a good user experience. Do you have something in mind? I see there are a number of things on the net. As a side note, I rememebr very long ago someone proposed to extract significantly different colours (I think there is already sw doing this) from famous paintings and convert them into palettes. Especially expressionists and renaissance gave beautiful results. All the best. -- Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu QGIS & PostGIS courses: http://www.faunalia.eu/training.html https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=IT&q=qgis,arcgis ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
Re: [QGIS-Developer] Broken 'randomness' for new layer styles?
On 2 February 2018 at 21:52, Richard Duivenvoorde wrote: > Somebody (Raymond ;-) ) 'complained' to me that running a processing > algorithm everytime comes up with an (ugly) brown style. I've noticed this too - but had assumed it was just some setting I'd changed locally. It's fixed by https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/pull/6254 BUT Coincidentally, Mathieu and I have been speaking this week about approaches to improve the random colors picked for layers. We came up with a similar approach: - find a palette of ~100 colors which we think look good for layers, and remove gross colors from this - include this palette as an additional pre-installed color palette within the standard QGIS install - on startup, pick a random starting color from this list and a random direction (forward or backward). When adding layers, grab this color for the layer and then jump to the next/previous color in the preset palette for the next layer added. - (for 3.2 : allow users to pick which palette to use for new layer colors) How's this sound? I'd love to address this for 3.0 - our default random color selection often picks yuck colors, and I think it'd be great if 3.0 "magically" produced nicer looking maps for users without any work required by them! Nyall ___ QGIS-Developer mailing list QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
