[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
On May 12, 1:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured into commentary on the future of 650B. I thought this was worth a discussion of its own. It can be interesting to try to predict the future. Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models, Not true: Betty Foys’ and Yves Gomez’ are 650b specific. Also, (and I know Jim didn't say this) just because Rivendell tends to size the wheel to the size of the frame on other models doesn't mean Rivendell is losing interest in any particular wheel size. Kogswell seems to be on an indefinite hiatus, That has little to do with 650b. As I understand it, Longleaf Cycles plans to pickup that torch. and Rawland's new models have been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc brakes, 650B will still be an option). As far as I know and as advertised on their website, Rawland's frames are 650b specific. Showing the frame's versatility with 622 and 559mm wheelsets at venues may be just that. To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the 27.5 wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all, since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader. Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b. There are some small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but again, it was mostly of the MTB variety. Do small market products have to go mainstream or corporate in order to maintain? I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough 650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty availability. It appears that some folks feel that for a product to continue to be produced, that it must have exponential sales numbers from year to year. While my economics classes are far, far behind me; I just don’t see that as a necessity. I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires, just in case. That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear. John McMurry Burlington, VT -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
My take, having just bought my first 650b bike, is that there will always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them? 650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite comfortable there. And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62 Rob in Seattle On May 12, 2010, at 8:53 AM, John McMurry johnmcmu...@gmail.com wrote: I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires, just in case. That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them? But Freewheels made up a much larger percentage of the market than 650B ever did. The more apt comparison is VHS and Beta. You can still get both, but VHS is much easier to find than Beta. On May 12, 11:12 am, Rob Harrison robha...@gmail.com wrote: My take, having just bought my first 650b bike, is that there will always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them? 650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite comfortable there. And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62 Rob in Seattle On May 12, 2010, at 8:53 AM, John McMurry johnmcmu...@gmail.com wrote: I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires, just in case. That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b. No this was several years ago, when the Saluki/Wilbury/Glorius/Bleriot 650B bikes were first being discussed. Grant mentioned several 650B tires apparently available at the time that I have never actually seen in person (under the brands Michelin, Mitsuboshi, etc). Our 650B stock and sales are limited to the same tires that Riv sells now, all of which have been around for several years (CdlV, NS/MF, FR, a couple Schwalbes). All have limited distribution channels and often spotty availability. I hear the GB tires are wonderful, but the combination of high price, low margin, and even lower sales volume means that it's not something I plan to stock. I'm hopeful that the Pacenti tire will be more feasible for me to have in stock (i.e. available through QBP), but I haven't laid my hands on any yet. I'm not sure I'd describe this as a set of options that has blossomed. Seems to me that there is a very small handful of people/companies (Grant, Jan, VO) who could shift priorities in life, and the 650B supply would quickly get pretty thin. On May 12, 10:53 am, John McMurry johnmcmu...@gmail.com wrote: On May 12, 1:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured into commentary on the future of 650B. I thought this was worth a discussion of its own. It can be interesting to try to predict the future. Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models, Not true: Betty Foys’ and Yves Gomez’ are 650b specific. Also, (and I know Jim didn't say this) just because Rivendell tends to size the wheel to the size of the frame on other models doesn't mean Rivendell is losing interest in any particular wheel size. Kogswell seems to be on an indefinite hiatus, That has little to do with 650b. As I understand it, Longleaf Cycles plans to pickup that torch. and Rawland's new models have been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc brakes, 650B will still be an option). As far as I know and as advertised on their website, Rawland's frames are 650b specific. Showing the frame's versatility with 622 and 559mm wheelsets at venues may be just that. To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the 27.5 wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all, since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader. Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b. There are some small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but again, it was mostly of the MTB variety. Do small market products have to go mainstream or corporate in order to maintain? I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough 650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty availability. It appears that some folks feel that for a product to continue to be produced, that it must have exponential sales numbers from year to year. While my economics classes are far, far behind me; I just don’t see that as a necessity. I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires, just in case. That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear. John McMurry Burlington, VT -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
Actually, when one of our VHS players broke, recently, I couldn't find a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive ($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD. Nick On May 12, 12:35 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them? But Freewheels made up a much larger percentage of the market than 650B ever did. The more apt comparison is VHS and Beta. You can still get both, but VHS is much easier to find than Beta. On May 12, 11:12 am, Rob Harrison robha...@gmail.com wrote: My take, having just bought my first 650b bike, is that there will always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them? 650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite comfortable there. And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62 Rob in Seattle On May 12, 2010, at 8:53 AM, John McMurry johnmcmu...@gmail.com wrote: I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires, just in case. That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
On May 12, 12:46 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b. No this was several years ago, when the Saluki/Wilbury/Glorius/Bleriot 650B bikes were first being discussed. There are several scattered years between those frame discussions. In my recollection, the Readers started seriously discussing 650b about 6 or 7 years ago. Grant mentioned several 650B tires apparently available at the time that I have never actually seen in person (under the brands Michelin, Mitsuboshi, etc). About 6 years ago, this is what was generally available: Schwalbe HS 159, Mitsuboshi Trimline, Panaracer Col de la Vie and, Michelin Megamium. Our 650B stock and sales are limited to the same tires that Riv sells now, all of which have been around for several years (CdlV, NS/MF, FR, a couple Schwalbes). All have limited distribution channels and often spotty availability. I hear the GB tires are wonderful, but the combination of high price, low margin, and even lower sales volume means that it's not something I plan to stock. Where our differences lie is probably due to the seats we sit in. As a consumer, I needn't worry about stocking, margins, and volume, whereas as a merchant, I would. I'm hopeful that the Pacenti tire will be more feasible for me to have in stock (i.e. available through QBP), but I haven't laid my hands on any yet. I just got word my LBS's have them in hand. I hope to buy a pair this week. I'd guess your shipment is near. I'm not sure I'd describe this as a set of options that has blossomed. No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now: Schwalbe HS 159, Schwalbe Marathon, Panaracer Col de la Vie, Sunlite Street Tire, Panaracer Nifty Swifty, Panaracer Maxy Fasty, Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin, Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress, Grand Bois Cypres, Grand Bois Ourson, Grand Bois Hetre, Pacenti Pari-Moto, Nokian A10. I'd think that quantitatively, that qualifies near a blossom. Seems to me that there is a very small handful of people/companies (Grant, Jan, VO) who could shift priorities in life, and the 650B supply would quickly get pretty thin. Sure, Riv, Grand Bois, VO, Schwalbe, Pacenti, Panaracer, and Continental could all simultaneously shift priorities, but that doesn't change the demand. I'd bet somebody would seize that opportunity. John McMurry Burlington, VT -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
Actually, when one of our VHS players broke, recently, I couldn't find a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive ($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD. I was thinking more the aftermarket. Just as there are many NOS or otherwise workable freewheels available on eBay so to there are many NOS VHS. You can find Beta aftermarket and you can find 650B aftermarket. Depending what you want though, the look can take a lot of effort. To your point, however, there is at least one mainstream - IRdD - company making freewheels and they are readily available. On May 12, 11:58 am, NickBull nick.bike.b...@gmail.com wrote: Actually, when one of our VHS players broke, recently, I couldn't find a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive ($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD. Nick On May 12, 12:35 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them? But Freewheels made up a much larger percentage of the market than 650B ever did. The more apt comparison is VHS and Beta. You can still get both, but VHS is much easier to find than Beta. On May 12, 11:12 am, Rob Harrison robha...@gmail.com wrote: My take, having just bought my first 650b bike, is that there will always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them? 650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite comfortable there. And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62 Rob in Seattle On May 12, 2010, at 8:53 AM, John McMurry johnmcmu...@gmail.com wrote: I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires, just in case. That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now: To Jim's point, I recently was in the market for a 40 hole 650b rim. I did not find any current makes. Fortunately, Jan Heine had one NOS set of Mavic MA-1s he was willing to sell. Otherwise I would not have been able to use the hubs I had in mind. On May 12, 12:59 pm, John McMurry johnmcmu...@gmail.com wrote: On May 12, 12:46 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com wrote: Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b. No this was several years ago, when the Saluki/Wilbury/Glorius/Bleriot 650B bikes were first being discussed. There are several scattered years between those frame discussions. In my recollection, the Readers started seriously discussing 650b about 6 or 7 years ago. Grant mentioned several 650B tires apparently available at the time that I have never actually seen in person (under the brands Michelin, Mitsuboshi, etc). About 6 years ago, this is what was generally available: Schwalbe HS 159, Mitsuboshi Trimline, Panaracer Col de la Vie and, Michelin Megamium. Our 650B stock and sales are limited to the same tires that Riv sells now, all of which have been around for several years (CdlV, NS/MF, FR, a couple Schwalbes). All have limited distribution channels and often spotty availability. I hear the GB tires are wonderful, but the combination of high price, low margin, and even lower sales volume means that it's not something I plan to stock. Where our differences lie is probably due to the seats we sit in. As a consumer, I needn't worry about stocking, margins, and volume, whereas as a merchant, I would. I'm hopeful that the Pacenti tire will be more feasible for me to have in stock (i.e. available through QBP), but I haven't laid my hands on any yet. I just got word my LBS's have them in hand. I hope to buy a pair this week. I'd guess your shipment is near. I'm not sure I'd describe this as a set of options that has blossomed. No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now: Schwalbe HS 159, Schwalbe Marathon, Panaracer Col de la Vie, Sunlite Street Tire, Panaracer Nifty Swifty, Panaracer Maxy Fasty, Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin, Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress, Grand Bois Cypres, Grand Bois Ourson, Grand Bois Hetre, Pacenti Pari-Moto, Nokian A10. I'd think that quantitatively, that qualifies near a blossom. Seems to me that there is a very small handful of people/companies (Grant, Jan, VO) who could shift priorities in life, and the 650B supply would quickly get pretty thin. Sure, Riv, Grand Bois, VO, Schwalbe, Pacenti, Panaracer, and Continental could all simultaneously shift priorities, but that doesn't change the demand. I'd bet somebody would seize that opportunity. John McMurry Burlington, VT -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
On May 12, 2:05 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now: To Jim's point, I recently was in the market for a 40 hole 650b rim. I did not find any current makes. According to the original post, Jim's point is that the future of 650b is uncertain due to his recent observations. That you can't find a 40- hole, 650b rim is an entirely different point. John McMurry Burlington, VT -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
Add the Continental Tour Ride also in 42mm and 54 mm Schwalbe HS 159, Schwalbe Marathon, Panaracer Col de la Vie, Sunlite Street Tire, Panaracer Nifty Swifty, Panaracer Maxy Fasty, Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin, Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress, Grand Bois Cypres, Grand Bois Ourson, Grand Bois Hetre, Pacenti Pari-Moto, Nokian A10. I -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: 650B market is plenty alive
According to the original post, Jim's point is that the future of 650b is uncertain due to his recent observations. That you can't find a 40- hole, 650b rim is an entirely different point. Seems like we are splitting hairs here. Certainly it underscores that 650b is not as well supported as other wheel sizes, which is the take away I get from Jim's point. And why I at least think is does make sense to buy a spare set of 650b rims and tires that fit my long term plans as I come across them. On May 12, 1:12 pm, John McMurry johnmcmu...@gmail.com wrote: On May 12, 2:05 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now: To Jim's point, I recently was in the market for a 40 hole 650b rim. I did not find any current makes. According to the original post, Jim's point is that the future of 650b is uncertain due to his recent observations. That you can't find a 40- hole, 650b rim is an entirely different point. John McMurry Burlington, VT -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
