[RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
So, has anyone tried to add quick-release things to metal fenders? Presumably even Jan would agree that metal fenders with QR thingies would be a safe bet. Thinking about trying my hand at adding them to my VO fenders. Riv offers just the plastic thingies, but I'm guessing you'd also need new struts. You can get the whole package here: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=7871category=78 William On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 4:36:37 PM UTC-7, rw1911 wrote: I may be naive, but just can't see how a *stick* could do such damage. I haven't had the displeasure, but imagine it going something like... stick gets sucked, front wheel locks, rapid deceleration, rider over bars and the bike probably leaves the ground relieving the force on the fork. Perhaps the extensive fork damage is the result of a post-stick, high speed impact? http://rivbike.tumblr.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
It's actually pretty hard for a stick to get through the spokes of a wheel with a reasonable spoke count. Not impossible, mind you, but difficult. I've flipped sticks into one side - snapping a spoke, but never all the way through. (Mythbusters actually did a good segment on shoving a broomstick into a motorcycle wheel - but speed was quite different.) Good reason for 32h or 36h setups... The great squirrel-snapping-the-front-fork examples (more than one, curiously. quite googleable.) are from very low-count wheels. It also provides a good contrast to how different materials handle super-high-stress impacts. Back to the example at hand. I've seen accordianed rear plastic fenders a few times, as those tend to not have the QR's. If you roll a lot of mixed terrain, you are liable to pick a stick now and again. It happens much, much faster than you would think. At one point, I sketched out a paisley-shaped doohickey which you attach to the trailing edge of your fender and then could point/angle to prevent this. Never took the time to bend something up. The more critical issue is the clearance of metal fenders. The sobering example in those photos is that it's worth tuning the fender line, and that it isn't just for aesthetics. Given the bend - which would tend to occur below the jam (fulcrum) where the metal thins out - it does seem that it happened right at the top of the tire. Front tire stoppage is scary stuff in my book. Stay back, stay alert and ride safe, folks! - Jim cyclofiend.com On Thursday, July 25, 2013 5:55:50 AM UTC-7, stevef wrote: Yeah, scary pic. I wonder if the stick or whatever actually got stuck in the spokes rather than under the fender? On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:36:37 PM UTC-4, rw1911 wrote: I may be naive, but just can't see how a *stick* could do such damage. I haven't had the displeasure, but imagine it going something like... stick gets sucked, front wheel locks, rapid deceleration, rider over bars and the bike probably leaves the ground relieving the force on the fork. Perhaps the extensive fork damage is the result of a post-stick, high speed impact? http://rivbike.tumblr.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
Yeah, scary pic. I wonder if the stick or whatever actually got stuck in the spokes rather than under the fender? On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:36:37 PM UTC-4, rw1911 wrote: I may be naive, but just can't see how a *stick* could do such damage. I haven't had the displeasure, but imagine it going something like... stick gets sucked, front wheel locks, rapid deceleration, rider over bars and the bike probably leaves the ground relieving the force on the fork. Perhaps the extensive fork damage is the result of a post-stick, high speed impact? http://rivbike.tumblr.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
Hello, I am immensely relieved to hear that this worked. I had SKS fenders installed on my build at Rivendell (Jared assured me they are quite precise about this installation) and, having researched this, I was glad to know that SKS fenders have the QR feature. I do have the Secu-Clip on the front fender (went directly to the bike garage to check this upon reading these posts and verify), The fronts are close hauled at the rear flap and have more generous spacing as they circle the wheel toward the front. That being said, and having seen the images on the BLUG, I am now somewhat concerned when I hear anything ride up between fender and wheel. I am almost considering removing the fenders altogether. Best regards, Tom On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:23:53 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote: A month or two ago I was piddling along on my bike with SKS fenders with the little QR thingies. I picked up a stick somehow that got slammed into the stays, which popped out of the QR and no problem. Surprised the heck out of me and I had to stop and put the stays back into the QR, but that beats getting tossed over the bars any day! Tim On Jul 23, 2013, at 9:15 PM, Will waller@gmail.com javascript: wrote: It can. It happened to me. Stick followed the tire into the fender. Fender collapsed into fork crown. Immediate endo. Landed on head. Helmets definitely help once in a while. Both blades deformed. Top and down tube deformed. Major pain in rear. Do not ride fenders without release engineering. It's expensive. And no I was not going fast. Will On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:36:37 PM UTC-5, rw1911 wrote: I may be naive, but just can't see how a *stick* could do such damage. I haven't had the displeasure, but imagine it going something like... stick gets sucked, front wheel locks, rapid deceleration, rider over bars and the bike probably leaves the ground relieving the force on the fork. Perhaps the extensive fork damage is the result of a post-stick, high speed impact? http://rivbike.tumblr.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
I learned somewhere to always have the fender close to the tire by the mudflap and have the gap between fender and tire open up as it gets closer to the front of the fender. This way, a stick has a better chance of getting dislodged before it gets sucked into a narrower and narrower passage to lock the tire. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
downhill shredding is best done fenderless and with minimal safety equipment. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
Joe B said: I'm having a hard time re-creating the dread happening here. How was the fender attached to the crown that would let it rotate forward like that? I totally agree with you that part is a head scratcher. If there ever was that clippy thing, it definitely broke, and it definitely was not sandwiched between the two brake lock washers like mine is. It kind of looks like a Sheldon nut in the first picture, so maybe the clippy thing was attached to a Sheldon nut. In my noodling on it, that clippy thing at least allowed the fender to slide through it. So, something gets lodged between tire and fender down low, and the wheel is rotating forward. Whatever that blockage is forces the fender to rotate forward, sliding through the clippy thing for now, or just ripping the fender out of the clippy thing. So far, no problem. Now think about these non-QR fender stays, as the fender is rotating forward, that U-shaped metal stay is getting tighter and tighter around the tire. Regardless of how the forward rotation of the fender started, now that fender stay IS the blockage. It's grabbing that tire like a vise, it will rotate along with the tire until it can't. That fender stay stops rotating only when it slams into the fork blade. It gets wrapped around the fork blade and still it does not break free from it's attachment down at the dropout. That's when the fork blades are the next thing to give out. It's pretty horrifying to look at. On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:29:19 PM UTC-7, joe b. wrote: First and mainly, glad the rider will be OK. Second, I'm having a hard time re-creating the dread happening here. How was the fender attached to the crown that would let it rotate forward like that? What I've read from more experienced riders (e.g. Jan Heine) is that metal fenders don't require the dropout releases because they resist folding/rotating toward the crown--the common plastic fender trick that results in over the bars and/or bent fork. Not trying to defend the lack of safety features on metal fenders, or imply that the rider's setup was wrong. Just a curious case. Best, joe broach portland, or -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
I think you've got it right. The fender struts rotated into (and through) the fork crown area. It's clear if you look at the two pictures. What's less clear but also a contributing factor is... as the blades deform, the wheel shifts enough to move the brake pads from the rim area onto the tire itself. That shift has considerable stopping force. Those calipers/pads are wedged firmly onto the tire. I have great respect for Jan Heine's bike philosophy but... pictures prove it happened. You really want the release engineering. Whatever the rider pays for a new fork is peanuts to what gets paid to the oral surgeon who fixes your teeth. Will On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 2:35:07 PM UTC-5, William wrote: Joe B said: I'm having a hard time re-creating the dread happening here. How was the fender attached to the crown that would let it rotate forward like that? I totally agree with you that part is a head scratcher. If there ever was that clippy thing, it definitely broke, and it definitely was not sandwiched between the two brake lock washers like mine is. It kind of looks like a Sheldon nut in the first picture, so maybe the clippy thing was attached to a Sheldon nut. In my noodling on it, that clippy thing at least allowed the fender to slide through it. So, something gets lodged between tire and fender down low, and the wheel is rotating forward. Whatever that blockage is forces the fender to rotate forward, sliding through the clippy thing for now, or just ripping the fender out of the clippy thing. So far, no problem. Now think about these non-QR fender stays, as the fender is rotating forward, that U-shaped metal stay is getting tighter and tighter around the tire. Regardless of how the forward rotation of the fender started, now that fender stay IS the blockage. It's grabbing that tire like a vise, it will rotate along with the tire until it can't. That fender stay stops rotating only when it slams into the fork blade. It gets wrapped around the fork blade and still it does not break free from it's attachment down at the dropout. That's when the fork blades are the next thing to give out. It's pretty horrifying to look at. On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:29:19 PM UTC-7, joe b. wrote: First and mainly, glad the rider will be OK. Second, I'm having a hard time re-creating the dread happening here. How was the fender attached to the crown that would let it rotate forward like that? What I've read from more experienced riders (e.g. Jan Heine) is that metal fenders don't require the dropout releases because they resist folding/rotating toward the crown--the common plastic fender trick that results in over the bars and/or bent fork. Not trying to defend the lack of safety features on metal fenders, or imply that the rider's setup was wrong. Just a curious case. Best, joe broach portland, or -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
Yeah, it totally can. If the front wheel is locked, and if the front tire cannot slide, and the rider + cargo is pretty heavy, the fork absolutely can fold before the rider goes over the bars.If it was on dirt the front tire would have most likely slid before the fork buckled. If it was a lightweight rider + cargo, then they would have gone over the bars before the fork buckled. One of the reasons frame builders make way-too-strong frames is so the fork is a sacrificial part during a mishap like this. The 2TT Sam frame shrugged this off. On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 4:36:37 PM UTC-7, rw1911 wrote: I may be naive, but just can't see how a *stick* could do such damage. I haven't had the displeasure, but imagine it going something like... stick gets sucked, front wheel locks, rapid deceleration, rider over bars and the bike probably leaves the ground relieving the force on the fork. Perhaps the extensive fork damage is the result of a post-stick, high speed impact? http://rivbike.tumblr.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
I won't lie- even the small chance of this happening has me gulping. I wonder if Honjo, VO, Gran Bois or others have looked into making QR connections ala SKS for metal fenders? -J -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
I think those companies would be aware of QR connections on fenders but most likely ruled them out on style issues. You are sacrificing some safety for style points, its all about your choice. I ride VO fenders but with Hetres on the Bombadil I have tons of room under there and it would take some kind of stick to jam it up, clearance to tire is also an issue, although some have said less clearance is as safe as alot since it doesnt give debris a chance to ride up the tire i dont think that is true, personally. I mean if it was a stick so big it could jam on the fork crown with no fenders at all if you have knobbies that are close to max tire size. On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:46 PM, justinaug...@gmail.com wrote: I won't lie- even the small chance of this happening has me gulping. I wonder if Honjo, VO, Gran Bois or others have looked into making QR connections ala SKS for metal fenders? -J -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
It can. It happened to me. Stick followed the tire into the fender. Fender collapsed into fork crown. Immediate endo. Landed on head. Helmets definitely help once in a while. Both blades deformed. Top and down tube deformed. Major pain in rear. Do not ride fenders without release engineering. It's expensive. And no I was not going fast. Will On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:36:37 PM UTC-5, rw1911 wrote: I may be naive, but just can't see how a *stick* could do such damage. I haven't had the displeasure, but imagine it going something like... stick gets sucked, front wheel locks, rapid deceleration, rider over bars and the bike probably leaves the ground relieving the force on the fork. Perhaps the extensive fork damage is the result of a post-stick, high speed impact? http://rivbike.tumblr.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
Jan Heine, who advocates aluminum fenders, claims that well mounted Honjos, Berthouds and ilk don't really have this risk. You can probably find his reasons on his blog (http://janheine.wordpress.com/), but it seems to me that well installed fenders, with a small gap between trailing edge and tire, pose little risk of picking up sticks. OTOH, one reason I have not gotten around to installing fenders on the Fargo is to avoid this problem -- I encounter far more sticks on dirt than on pavement. On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:46 PM, justinaug...@gmail.com wrote: I won't lie- even the small chance of this happening has me gulping. I wonder if Honjo, VO, Gran Bois or others have looked into making QR connections ala SKS for metal fenders? -J -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- http://resumespecialties.com/index.html patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Albuquerque, NM -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
A month or two ago I was piddling along on my bike with SKS fenders with the little QR thingies. I picked up a stick somehow that got slammed into the stays, which popped out of the QR and no problem. Surprised the heck out of me and I had to stop and put the stays back into the QR, but that beats getting tossed over the bars any day! Tim On Jul 23, 2013, at 9:15 PM, Will waller.will...@gmail.com wrote: It can. It happened to me. Stick followed the tire into the fender. Fender collapsed into fork crown. Immediate endo. Landed on head. Helmets definitely help once in a while. Both blades deformed. Top and down tube deformed. Major pain in rear. Do not ride fenders without release engineering. It's expensive. And no I was not going fast. Will On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:36:37 PM UTC-5, rw1911 wrote: I may be naive, but just can't see how a *stick* could do such damage. I haven't had the displeasure, but imagine it going something like... stick gets sucked, front wheel locks, rapid deceleration, rider over bars and the bike probably leaves the ground relieving the force on the fork. Perhaps the extensive fork damage is the result of a post-stick, high speed impact? http://rivbike.tumblr.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
First and mainly, glad the rider will be OK. Second, I'm having a hard time re-creating the dread happening here. How was the fender attached to the crown that would let it rotate forward like that? What I've read from more experienced riders (e.g. Jan Heine) is that metal fenders don't require the dropout releases because they resist folding/rotating toward the crown--the common plastic fender trick that results in over the bars and/or bent fork. Not trying to defend the lack of safety features on metal fenders, or imply that the rider's setup was wrong. Just a curious case. Best, joe broach portland, or -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: 7/19 BLUG broken Sam
Since Jan has posted here in the past, and is a good friend of Grant, perhaps he will enquire into the specifics of this event and offer his views on the relative safety of various fenders and fender installations here. He as previously stated on his blog that: Regarding safety, I have asked every randonneur in France whether they knew of fender-related accidents, and none could recall one. On the other hand, there are plenty of reports of accidents with plastic fenders crumbling into the fork crown. Break-away devices seem to help with plastic fenders, but even then, they don’t approach the safety record of well-installed aluminum fenders. Generally speaking, aluminum fenders are stiffer, and thus unlikely to crumble when hit by a twig that is picked up by the front wheel. On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 7:17:48 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: Jan Heine, who advocates aluminum fenders, claims that well mounted Honjos, Berthouds and ilk don't really have this risk. You can probably find his reasons on his blog (http://janheine.wordpress.com/), but it seems to me that well installed fenders, with a small gap between trailing edge and tire, pose little risk of picking up sticks. OTOH, one reason I have not gotten around to installing fenders on the Fargo is to avoid this problem -- I encounter far more sticks on dirt than on pavement. On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:46 PM, justin...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: I won't lie- even the small chance of this happening has me gulping. I wonder if Honjo, VO, Gran Bois or others have looked into making QR connections ala SKS for metal fenders? -J -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- http://resumespecialties.com/index.html patric...@resumespecialties.com javascript: http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Albuquerque, NM -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
