Re: [RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Ash]

Dave,

Thanks for the reminder about the safety recall.  I do check on those bolts 
frequently, but no excuse not to use the Many Strap.  Actually I find this 
front rack clunky.  I'll be getting rid of them soon.  I'm waiting on a 
back Nitto F32 from Analog.




On Saturday, 15 August 2020 at 08:32:19 UTC-7 Dave Johnston wrote:

> I thought of something else you can try with V-brakes: Use shorter
> cross style pads.
> Sometimes the long tail of typical V-Brakes can sort of twist into the
> rims causing a self-energizing effect that makes them grabby. A
> shorter pad may help.
>
> Safety note: The Surly pack rack was recalled. If you use, make sure
> all bolts are tightened well, thread-locked and use a Many Strap from
> the Rack to the handlebars. Since its a loosen issue and not a
> breakage issue I would still use the rack myself as the incidents were
> probably installation error or overloaded racks. The design problem is
> that the Surly rack uses a lot of bolts that could loosen to keep it
> in place. This is true of most Front racks.
>
>
> https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2019/surly-bikes-recalls-bicycle-racks-due-to-crash-and-injury-hazards
>
>
> On 8/14/20, Ash  wrote:
> > Hi Ed, this is small size. It seems like this model 'runs big'. I'm
> > 5'7" and this bike feel a bit bigger than I need.
> >
> > Yes that's the height I keep the seat at.
> >
> > On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 19:06:45 UTC-7 ed wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Ash,
> >> What size is your Susie and is that your correct seat height?
> >> Very nice looking :-)
> >> Edgar
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 6:58 AM Ash  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Here's my work-in-progress Susie, rocking V-Canti combo.
> >>>
> >>> Rich is still waiting for the front rim. Temporarily I used my road
> >>> bike's (now that it is Riv-fied with Bosco, 650b and R559, I call it
> >>> 'City
> >>> bike') Pacenti Brevets. Did a few rides last weekend with Avid Sing
> >>> Digit
> >>> 7 V-brakes both front and back. Then a few rides with Avid Shorty
> >>> ultimate
> >>> in the front. IMO, there's no comparison when it comes to modulation.
> >>>
> >>> With the Cantis it feels like I can go smoothly 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60,
> >>> 70,
> >>> 80, 90 and 100% brake power based on how hard I squeeze the lever. V
> >>> brake
> >>> without the modulator felt like 10, 40, 90, 100% and a little different
> >>> (mushy) with the modulator that's hard to describe.
> >>>
> >>> Given that the full power this particular Canti gives upon full squeeze
> >>> of the lever is quite close to that with the V, current setup feels 
> right
> >>>
> >>> for the types of rides I go on (70% of the time flat roads/trails,
> >>> occasional hilly rides, rarely wet conditions). However, the asymmetry
> >>> is
> >>> starting to bother me a little. Not sure yet what setup I will settle
> >>> with
> >>> when the build is complete.
> >>>
> >>> [image: swl-2.jpeg]
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b864a6ce-92bf-4156-becf-1a31426a0ae9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email_source=footer
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Re: [RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[David Johnston]

I thought of something else you can try with V-brakes: Use shorter
cross style pads.
Sometimes the long tail of typical V-Brakes can sort of twist into the
rims causing a self-energizing effect that makes them grabby. A
shorter pad may help.

Safety note: The Surly pack rack was recalled. If you use, make sure
all bolts are tightened well, thread-locked and use a Many Strap from
the Rack to the handlebars. Since its a loosen issue and not a
breakage issue I would still use the rack myself as the incidents were
probably installation error or overloaded racks. The design problem is
that the Surly rack uses a lot of bolts that could loosen to keep it
in place. This is true of most Front racks.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2019/surly-bikes-recalls-bicycle-racks-due-to-crash-and-injury-hazards


On 8/14/20, Ash  wrote:
> Hi Ed,  this is small size.   It seems like this model 'runs big'.  I'm
> 5'7" and this bike feel a bit bigger than I need.
>
> Yes that's the height I keep the seat at.
>
> On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 19:06:45 UTC-7 ed wrote:
>
>> Hi Ash,
>> What size is your Susie and is that your correct seat height?
>> Very nice looking :-)
>> Edgar
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 6:58 AM Ash  wrote:
>>
>>> Here's my work-in-progress Susie, rocking V-Canti combo.
>>>
>>> Rich is still waiting for the front rim.   Temporarily I used my road
>>> bike's (now that it is Riv-fied with Bosco, 650b and R559, I call it
>>> 'City
>>> bike')  Pacenti Brevets.  Did a few rides last weekend with Avid Sing
>>> Digit
>>> 7 V-brakes both front and back.  Then a few rides with Avid Shorty
>>> ultimate
>>> in the front.  IMO,  there's no comparison when it comes to modulation.
>>>
>>> With the Cantis it feels like I can go smoothly 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60,
>>> 70,
>>> 80, 90 and 100% brake power based on how hard I squeeze the lever.  V
>>> brake
>>> without the modulator felt like 10, 40, 90, 100% and a little different
>>> (mushy) with the modulator that's hard to describe.
>>>
>>> Given that the full power this particular Canti gives upon full squeeze
>>> of the lever is quite close to that with the V, current setup feels right
>>>
>>> for the types of rides I go on (70% of the time flat roads/trails,
>>> occasional hilly rides, rarely wet conditions).  However, the asymmetry
>>> is
>>> starting to bother me a little.  Not sure yet what setup I will settle
>>> with
>>> when the build is complete.
>>>
>>> [image: swl-2.jpeg]
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>
>>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>
>>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b864a6ce-92bf-4156-becf-1a31426a0ae9n%40googlegroups.com
>>>
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Ash]

Hi Ed,  this is small size.   It seems like this model 'runs big'.  I'm 
5'7" and this bike feel a bit bigger than I need.

Yes that's the height I keep the seat at.

On Thursday, 13 August 2020 at 19:06:45 UTC-7 ed wrote:

> Hi Ash,
> What size is your Susie and is that your correct seat height?
> Very nice looking :-)
> Edgar
>
> On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 6:58 AM Ash  wrote:
>
>> Here's my work-in-progress Susie, rocking V-Canti combo.
>>
>> Rich is still waiting for the front rim.   Temporarily I used my road 
>> bike's (now that it is Riv-fied with Bosco, 650b and R559, I call it 'City 
>> bike')  Pacenti Brevets.  Did a few rides last weekend with Avid Sing Digit 
>> 7 V-brakes both front and back.  Then a few rides with Avid Shorty ultimate 
>> in the front.  IMO,  there's no comparison when it comes to modulation.  
>> With the Cantis it feels like I can go smoothly 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 
>> 80, 90 and 100% brake power based on how hard I squeeze the lever.  V brake 
>> without the modulator felt like 10, 40, 90, 100% and a little different 
>> (mushy) with the modulator that's hard to describe.
>>
>> Given that the full power this particular Canti gives upon full squeeze 
>> of the lever is quite close to that with the V, current setup feels right 
>> for the types of rides I go on (70% of the time flat roads/trails, 
>> occasional hilly rides, rarely wet conditions).  However, the asymmetry is 
>> starting to bother me a little.  Not sure yet what setup I will settle with 
>> when the build is complete.
>>
>> [image: swl-2.jpeg]
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b864a6ce-92bf-4156-becf-1a31426a0ae9n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Ash]

Patrick, Benz, bfd, Joe, Ginz, Dave et al,

More than an anything, this is an itch I've had for while.  As much as I 
like riding, 50% of this hobby is about satisfying my need to tinker with 
things.  Appreciate you sharing your points of view.  They will be handy 
during my ongoing journey through the world of brakes.

 Most likely I'll end up with V for both front and back, but I'll be sure 
to report on the observations from the experiment!

I started with Cantis when I build my first Riv.  For aesthetics, braking 
feel, shudder and squeal reasons I went through 4 or 5 different pairs of 
cantis (including VO Grand Cru, Avid Shorty Ultimate, Tektro 510 or 710, 
Shimano Altus..).  Once I learned setting them up right, VO and Avid worked 
just fine (for my use).  One day I felt like I had developed an OCD for 
adjusting the straddle cable length and switch to v-brakes.  Been kind of 
happy ever since :) 
For the kind of rides I do though, some modulation in the front and 
powerful braking in the rear seems to make sense.  Besides, after two of my 
acquaintances have had real bad accidents going over the handlebar, I am 
overly sensitive to the possibility of front wheel locking up.  I have a 
spare pair of Avid Shorty's.  Hence I figured I'd build Susie with those. 
 The way the rear brake cable routing in Susie, using Cantis for the back 
would require too many bends and curves in the cable path.  I have not 
tried yet, but visually it feels like the braking power would be 
compromised somewhat.  The top tube/seat stay design feels perfect for 
v-brakes.  This situation finally gave me an excuse to try canti/v combo.   
(Cliffhangers have been in short supply.  I've been waiting for last 4 
weeks for my wheels.  An idle mind has a tendency to become devil's 
workshop.. or something like that)



On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 at 19:05:31 UTC-7 Dave Johnston wrote:

>
> I used those forte (tektro) dual pull position levers for awhile with 
> canti brakes and found they sucked. Even in the short pull mode they pulled 
> too much cable for cantis so the offered a really stiff feel with very 
> little modulation.
>
> I can't see any reason to run V brakes in the rear unless there is some 
> funky cable routing like on a Mixte, and in that case use V brakes front 
> and rear.
>
> Also what cable housing are you using? If you want a  little more 
> modulation don't use "compressionless" housing.
> I really like Avid Speed dial levers for V-brakes as you can adjust the 
> pull with a knob to the feel you prefer.
>

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[RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Dave Johnston]

I used those forte (tektro) dual pull position levers for awhile with canti 
brakes and found they sucked. Even in the short pull mode they pulled too 
much cable for cantis so the offered a really stiff feel with very little 
modulation.

I can't see any reason to run V brakes in the rear unless there is some 
funky cable routing like on a Mixte, and in that case use V brakes front 
and rear.

Also what cable housing are you using? If you want a  little more 
modulation don't use "compressionless" housing.
I really like Avid Speed dial levers for V-brakes as you can adjust the 
pull with a knob to the feel you prefer.

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[RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Ash]

@Garthn - bingo!  Those were the kind of levers I wanted.  Wish they were 
all-black, but for my experiment phase I'd be happy to go with those.  Also 
sold on the fork-mounted cable-stop.  Thanks for both recommendations.

On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 at 00:10:45 UTC-7 Garth wrote:

>
> I totally relate to Ash and Will on the preference for a stronger rear 
> brake, as my Bombadil is set up this way using 2 different models of cantis 
> on it. On my local back roads many are unpaved and rather primitive, and 
> all them very hilly, some of which are well over 20 percent grades. Going 
> downhill on these with loose rocks and dirt over over hard larger 
> rocky/limestone surface can be very tricky to say the least. There's no way 
> I'd want a v-brake on front that could lock up, ever !! If the front brake 
> has no modulation, it's worthless to me. 
>
> The beauty of canti is there are endless models and infinite ways of 
> setting them up. You can use short or long pads, thin or thick, and they 
> all work. I rather prefer the smooth post style also. 
>
> On the front you can exchange the stem mounted cable stop for the Tektro 
> fork mounted one, which allows for a cleaner direct-cable look, if that 
> matters, and those hangers from my experience made an already good brake 
> into an outstanding one. (XC Pro canti on my Frankllin). I have one of 
> these hangers for my Bombadil also but haven't gotten around to putting it 
> on yet, hah ! 
>
> I'm referring to these :
>
> 
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Ginz]

If you are are riding really rocky, rooty, steep trails where rear brake is 
primary, then I can certainly understand v brake on the rear. (On my Small 
Hunqapillar, the rear cable stop is in such a tight spot I gave up and put v 
brake on). 

Now, on the front, my hunqapillar has terrible shutter. I tried  various 
things. The only thing that worked was the tektro crown-mounted stop. So, I’m 
using a canti in the front. 

I have mismatched levers and two bar setups with cable breakers. So— I set up 
albatross one way and bullmoose the other. This only works because I like 
right-front braking for road riding.  The tektro levers someone mentioned would 
solve this problem!

Short story is sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I’d much prefer both v 
brakes or both cantis.

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[RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[masmojo]

Sorry, maybe I missed it, but you don't say what type of bar you're running?
I assume a flat or non drop bar?
Tektro makes an adjustable mountain lever, I believe it's called the 
switchblade ( or something like that) they have a little knob that adjusts the 
cable pull from long to short (or in between) they work well, but they are a 
little "techy" looking & to my mind don't suit my Rivendell aesthetic.

The bigger issue as others have eluded is the brakes themselves. 
The majority of you stopping power is in the front; if you put a cantilever in 
the front & V-brake in the back, I'm afraid you'll be locking the back brake a 
lot. 
My suggestion would be to hunt down a pair of early XTR Cantilever brakes, they 
had different arm lengths front and  rear for more balanced braking. I run 
these on several bikes, you can typically find them on Epay, but pricing varies 
widely under $50 is OK. They might need new pads!
They aren't quite as good as the Paul's, but they are low profile, quite pretty 
& light.

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[RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Garth]

I totally relate to Ash and Will on the preference for a stronger rear 
brake, as my Bombadil is set up this way using 2 different models of cantis 
on it. On my local back roads many are unpaved and rather primitive, and 
all them very hilly, some of which are well over 20 percent grades. Going 
downhill on these with loose rocks and dirt over over hard larger 
rocky/limestone surface can be very tricky to say the least. There's no way 
I'd want a v-brake on front that could lock up, ever !! If the front brake 
has no modulation, it's worthless to me. 

The beauty of canti is there are endless models and infinite ways of 
setting them up. You can use short or long pads, thin or thick, and they 
all work. I rather prefer the smooth post style also. 

On the front you can exchange the stem mounted cable stop for the Tektro 
fork mounted one, which allows for a cleaner direct-cable look, if that 
matters, and those hangers from my experience made an already good brake 
into an outstanding one. (XC Pro canti on my Frankllin). I have one of 
these hangers for my Bombadil also but haven't gotten around to putting it 
on yet, hah ! 

I'm referring to these :





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[RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 1:33:19 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
>
> Yep, Tektro's 354AG and MT2.1 are for both linear and canti, they adjust 
> inside the lever body. They are also often rebranded, like mine are Forte 
> brand but they are Tektro made. 
>

If you're going high-zoot, Paul levers come in both flavors of cable pull 
(Canti and Love), but are visually similar.

I'm not sure I agree with Will on this canti front/V-brake rear setup 
though. I would have recommended the other way around because:

   1. I like having a stronger brake up front. Yes, cantilevers can be 
   adjusted to have high braking power, but it's a compromise with tire 
   clearance, and it's convenient to have the front brake default to high 
   power.
   2. You can eliminate the cable hanger required for use with a cantilever 
   brake. It makes for a cleaner look, and…
   3. If you suffer from front brake judder, not having a long run of brake 
   cable between the hanger and the cantilever straddle cable may solve that.


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[RBW] Re: Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Garth]

Yep, Tektro's 354AG and MT2.1 are for both linear and canti, they adjust 
inside the lever body. They are also often rebranded, like mine are Forte 
brand but they are Tektro made. 

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