Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Much of your brake preferences depend on how and where you ride. Just like cars, where racing on a track probably would make my car's brakes overheat within a lap or two, but on the road, tire adhesion is the limiting factor (hence the usefulness of ABS for most drivers, as it optimizes tire adhesion). Most cyclists never brake very hard, and most brakes will work fine. As somebody pointed out, all brakes will stop you - eventually. However, at least on dry pavement, there is so much tire adhesion that the brake becomes the limiting factor. Assuming skilled riders who brace themselves against the handlebars and shift their weight back, better brakes will result in shorter stopping distances. (So does lower speed!) On your Rambouillet, the tires aren't very large. A well-designed dual pivot brake will get you plenty of brake power. If you were trying to span a Hetre with fenders, then I'd definitely recommend brakes that have brazed-on pivots and thus shorter arms, whether centerpulls or cantilevers. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Jan's mention of the difference between braking needs for a 700x28 on a Rambouillet and a Hetre with fenders got me to thinking about something I've observed over the past couple years. I don't know how to explain it. We sell a fair number of Surly bikes, mostly LHTs and Cross-checks. The LHT typically has 26 wheels with 1.75-2 tires. The Cross-check comes with 700x32 semi-knobby cross tires. Both bikes come stock with Tektro CR720 brakes and Tektro 340 levers. Many seem to find that brake configuration to be adequate on a Cross-check, but a large number of LHT test-riders and buyers express disappointment with braking performance on the LHT. I've observed it myself, as have a couple friends who own both models. I don't think it's an issue of tire adhesion, because the discrepancy is noticeable even at modest speeds without skidding the tires. The solution is relatively easy and inexpensive: v-brakes. As Jan points out, all brakes will stop you eventually. But here in the midwest, I don't usually need brakes to optimize my speed on some steep mountain descent. When I hit the brakes, it's usually because a car just pulled in front of me on my commute, and I want to slow down NOW! For me, v-brakes produce that result, and cantilevers, by comparison, are disappointing. For people with smaller and/or weaker hands, we've found v-brakes to be a near necessity on the 26 wheel LHTs mentioned above. For big strong guys who grew up milking cows by hand, it's less of an issue. On Sunday, April 7, 2013 12:45:06 PM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote: Much of your brake preferences depend on how and where you ride. Just like cars, where racing on a track probably would make my car's brakes overheat within a lap or two, but on the road, tire adhesion is the limiting factor (hence the usefulness of ABS for most drivers, as it optimizes tire adhesion). Most cyclists never brake very hard, and most brakes will work fine. As somebody pointed out, all brakes will stop you - eventually. However, at least on dry pavement, there is so much tire adhesion that the brake becomes the limiting factor. Assuming skilled riders who brace themselves against the handlebars and shift their weight back, better brakes will result in shorter stopping distances. (So does lower speed!) On your Rambouillet, the tires aren't very large. A well-designed dual pivot brake will get you plenty of brake power. If you were trying to span a Hetre with fenders, then I'd definitely recommend brakes that have brazed-on pivots and thus shorter arms, whether centerpulls or cantilevers. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
From personal experience I would say that with good brakes, centre of gravity is the limiting factor, particularly on a bike with no luggage on the rear. You can brake hard enough to go over the handlebars. I've done it when brainless motorists have put me on a collision course with them, and I've done it in races when riders have fallen in front of me. And some of those endos were long enough ago that the brakes I was using the old single pivot sidepulls. On Monday, 8 April 2013 03:45:06 UTC+10, Jan Heine wrote: [...] However, at least on dry pavement, there is so much tire adhesion that the brake becomes the limiting factor. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
I have endoed on the bike path with 30 year old centerpulls, someone came right across the path and I could not see getting around them. I have also skidded out on old sidepulls. I luckily have not had that opportunity with canti's though. On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Nick Payne nick.pa...@internode.on.netwrote: From personal experience I would say that with good brakes, centre of gravity is the limiting factor, particularly on a bike with no luggage on the rear. You can brake hard enough to go over the handlebars. I've done it when brainless motorists have put me on a collision course with them, and I've done it in races when riders have fallen in front of me. And some of those endos were long enough ago that the brakes I was using the old single pivot sidepulls. On Monday, 8 April 2013 03:45:06 UTC+10, Jan Heine wrote: [...] However, at least on dry pavement, there is so much tire adhesion that the brake becomes the limiting factor. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Back in high school, circa 1972, there was a school clown who would gather a few laughs by deliberately flipping a Schwinn Varsity bar-over-front-wheel simply by slamming on the front brake at 10 mph. On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Peter Morgano uscpeter11...@gmail.comwrote: I have endoed on the bike path with 30 year old centerpulls, someone came right across the path and I could not see getting around them. I have also skidded out on old sidepulls. I luckily have not had that opportunity with canti's though. On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Nick Payne nick.pa...@internode.on.netwrote: From personal experience I would say that with good brakes, centre of gravity is the limiting factor, particularly on a bike with no luggage on the rear. You can brake hard enough to go over the handlebars. I've done it when brainless motorists have put me on a collision course with them, and I've done it in races when riders have fallen in front of me. And some of those endos were long enough ago that the brakes I was using the old single pivot sidepulls. On Monday, 8 April 2013 03:45:06 UTC+10, Jan Heine wrote: [...] However, at least on dry pavement, there is so much tire adhesion that the brake becomes the limiting factor. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- http://resumespecialties.com/index.html patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com __ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
I have only limited experience withV brakes but lots with all the others. The only ones without good stopping power have been Shimano 550br cantis. I like my Neo retros and find them pretty easy to live with. The Ram currently has Racer M's and the tandem posted Racers. Center pulls outperform side pulls in fender clearance and I would add one other variable to the conversation. Cantis tend to get very dirty, because the pivots sit below fenders, while center pulls, sitting above the fender remain much cleaner. Michael On Thursday, April 4, 2013 2:25:22 PM UTC-4, john wrote: I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it. Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's. Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike. I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics. The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why? That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a road bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why? I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them? In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice. Thanks. John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
The only ones without good stopping power have been Shimano 550br cantis. I have those cantis on my Riv touring bike. The don't work very well the way I have them set up: as low as my racks will allow the straddle cable to go. Descending while fully loaded, the stopping distance is about 100 feet. On Saturday, April 6, 2013 6:26:56 AM UTC-6, Michael Hechmer wrote: I have only limited experience withV brakes but lots with all the others. The only ones without good stopping power have been Shimano 550br cantis. I like my Neo retros and find them pretty easy to live with. The Ram currently has Racer M's and the tandem posted Racers. Center pulls outperform side pulls in fender clearance and I would add one other variable to the conversation. Cantis tend to get very dirty, because the pivots sit below fenders, while center pulls, sitting above the fender remain much cleaner. Michael On Thursday, April 4, 2013 2:25:22 PM UTC-4, john wrote: I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it. Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's. Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike. I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics. The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why? That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a road bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why? I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them? In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice. Thanks. John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Take this with a total grain of salt - my new Sam Hillborne my first bike in 30 years with sidepull brakes. Everything has been either canti, vee, or disc. There is some noticable flex on the Tektro sidepulls, but they still stop well. Probably doesn't hurt my Hillborne has old Dia-Compe SS-7 brake levers which are very sturdy. For the original poster, I actually like the idea of running a cantilever in back and sidepull in front. That way you can keep the same brake levers. Shouldn't be a problem operation wise, and would make for a unique looking bike. Do think that V brakes are the bees knees and have a lot more stopping power, but can understand if some folks don't like them. Do have them on both my SimpleOne and Surly LHT. Eric Platt St. Paul, MN On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:12 AM, samh rbwown...@yahoo.com wrote: The only ones without good stopping power have been Shimano 550br cantis. I have those cantis on my Riv touring bike. The don't work very well the way I have them set up: as low as my racks will allow the straddle cable to go. Descending while fully loaded, the stopping distance is about 100 feet. On Saturday, April 6, 2013 6:26:56 AM UTC-6, Michael Hechmer wrote: I have only limited experience withV brakes but lots with all the others. The only ones without good stopping power have been Shimano 550br cantis. I like my Neo retros and find them pretty easy to live with. The Ram currently has Racer M's and the tandem posted Racers. Center pulls outperform side pulls in fender clearance and I would add one other variable to the conversation. Cantis tend to get very dirty, because the pivots sit below fenders, while center pulls, sitting above the fender remain much cleaner. Michael On Thursday, April 4, 2013 2:25:22 PM UTC-4, john wrote: I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it. Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's. Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike. I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics. The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why? That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a road bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why? I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them? In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice. Thanks. John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
AASHTA* - http://sheldonbrown.com/brakes/index.html And it's worth clicking through to the Jobst article on brake types here - http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/brakes.html All modern brakes work. I don't think folks are really arguing for one or the other type. There are certainly tradeoffs - for example, canti's are great for using with fenders and giving maximum tire clearance, but can be a bit fiddly to adjust. It's been nice to see a resurgence of interest in center pulls, as they have the balanced aesthetic of canti's, yet the svelte profiles of the sidepull. And the variety of sidepulls (thinking back to the Grant Wish Lists of old Readers and remembering how he had hoped for something other than the then-current spate of uber-short-reach models...) I've got canti's on the QB and Silver sidepulls on the Hilsen. Never thought about one being better at stopping than the other. If I had the urge to upgrade (and somehow seldom do until the brakes are utterly, thoroughly worn out), I'd lean towards the stuff Paul makes. - Jim *AASHTA = As Always, Sheldon Has The Answer -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
I am quite happy with the performance of the inexpensive v-brakes on my Sam, but prefer the feel of the side pulls that came on my Brompton. In your situation I would try the Silvers for tire clearance. Jay On Friday, April 5, 2013 10:07:14 AM UTC+3, Cyclofiend Jim wrote: AASHTA* - http://sheldonbrown.com/brakes/index.html And it's worth clicking through to the Jobst article on brake types here - http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/brakes.html All modern brakes work. I don't think folks are really arguing for one or the other type. There are certainly tradeoffs - for example, canti's are great for using with fenders and giving maximum tire clearance, but can be a bit fiddly to adjust. It's been nice to see a resurgence of interest in center pulls, as they have the balanced aesthetic of canti's, yet the svelte profiles of the sidepull. And the variety of sidepulls (thinking back to the Grant Wish Lists of old Readers and remembering how he had hoped for something other than the then-current spate of uber-short-reach models...) I've got canti's on the QB and Silver sidepulls on the Hilsen. Never thought about one being better at stopping than the other. If I had the urge to upgrade (and somehow seldom do until the brakes are utterly, thoroughly worn out), I'd lean towards the stuff Paul makes. - Jim *AASHTA = As Always, Sheldon Has The Answer -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
You received all good answers John. To echo what others wrote, and add my own thoughts, I find side-pulls look much nicer than cantis or Vs. As Jim wrote, center-pulls split the difference, and probably would be my choice on a bike that could fit them. Center and side pulls have the disadvantage of not being able to open wide enough for really wide tires compared to cantis/Vs. They also have a bit more flex in them when the arms get long. That's not a performance issue as they stop the same, but some riders don't like that feel in the brake system. So for me, I'd pick center or sides if they fit the tire I wanted to use. Easier to set up and look nicer. Performance difference is negligible in my experience. Cheers, David On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Jay in Tel Aviv jayin...@gmail.com wrote: I am quite happy with the performance of the inexpensive v-brakes on my Sam, but prefer the feel of the side pulls that came on my Brompton. In your situation I would try the Silvers for tire clearance. Jay On Friday, April 5, 2013 10:07:14 AM UTC+3, Cyclofiend Jim wrote: AASHTA* - http://sheldonbrown.com/**brakes/index.htmlhttp://sheldonbrown.com/brakes/index.html And it's worth clicking through to the Jobst article on brake types here - http://sheldonbrown.com/**brandt/brakes.htmlhttp://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/brakes.html All modern brakes work. I don't think folks are really arguing for one or the other type. There are certainly tradeoffs - for example, canti's are great for using with fenders and giving maximum tire clearance, but can be a bit fiddly to adjust. It's been nice to see a resurgence of interest in center pulls, as they have the balanced aesthetic of canti's, yet the svelte profiles of the sidepull. And the variety of sidepulls (thinking back to the Grant Wish Lists of old Readers and remembering how he had hoped for something other than the then-current spate of uber-short-reach models...) I've got canti's on the QB and Silver sidepulls on the Hilsen. Never thought about one being better at stopping than the other. If I had the urge to upgrade (and somehow seldom do until the brakes are utterly, thoroughly worn out), I'd lean towards the stuff Paul makes. - Jim *AASHTA = As Always, Sheldon Has The Answer -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
I've never had a bike fail to stop because of the type of brake on it. (Of course I don't do radical MTB stuff or descend mountain passes in the rain with a full touring load, so YMMV). It's usually just comes down to clearances, aesthetics and personal preference. -Pete in CT On Thursday, April 4, 2013 2:25:22 PM UTC-4, john wrote: I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it. Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's. Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike. I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics. The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why? That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a road bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why? I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them? In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice. Thanks. John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
John, Based on your post, I'd say that if you want to improve the brake feel/power a bit more, replace the front sidepull with a Paul Racer. It will also look better in the sense of looking more similar to your rear canti brakes. That being said, I have a front Racer and a rear Silver on my Betty and I can't really say that the difference is that significant. In fact, the feel from the front Neo-Retro compared to the rear Touring brakes is much greater. So in the end, if you're happy with how the front sidepull performs, and don't care about the looks, just leave it. René On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Peter Pesce petepe...@gmail.com wrote: I've never had a bike fail to stop because of the type of brake on it. (Of course I don't do radical MTB stuff or descend mountain passes in the rain with a full touring load, so YMMV). It's usually just comes down to clearances, aesthetics and personal preference. -Pete in CT On Thursday, April 4, 2013 2:25:22 PM UTC-4, john wrote: I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it. Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's. Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike. I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics. The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why? That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a road bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why? I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them? In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice. Thanks. John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Dual pivot side-pull brakes work very well. V Brakes provide the best rim brake stopping bang for the buck. Some day I hope to have a bike set up with those swell Paul mini-vs. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
I'll chime in on at least one comparison. I originally built the Hilsen I owned with Silver side pulls, but later upgraded to Pauls center pulls. I thought this was going to be brake nirvana, but to be completely honest, I felt the Silvers out performed the Pauls in every way. The Silvers were FAR easier to set up, looked better, opened up as wide as the Pauls, AND they modulated and stopped better. Despite having set up literally hundreds of brakes, I was constantly tweaking the Pauls to no satisfaction. Had I not ended up on a cantilevered bike, I would have gone back to side pulls no question. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
another opinionslightly different. It depends on where you live. If you live a hilly or mountainous area I would choose cantilever or brazed on center pulls every time. I think Silvers are mushy compared to either. They are easy to install and adjust, but don't have the stopping power of properly adjusted canti's. The best rim brake I've ever used are the brazed on Paul Racers, but those require the addition of specially located posts and a new paint job. The new mini V's look promising too, I just don't care for the appearance. I wish Grant would put canti's back on the Sam and add them to a batch of Hilsens sometime. I think he mentioned it costs extra to put the posts on. ~mike -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Compared to the single-pivot Dia-Compe sidepulls on my Bridgestone RB-2, * everything* we have now works great. This type of brake was standard equipment on road bikes back in the heyday of Campagnolo speed reducers, which was market-speak for they're light, but they don't work. On Thursday, April 4, 2013 11:25:22 AM UTC-7, john wrote: I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it. Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's. Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike. I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics. The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why? That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a road bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why? I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them? In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice. Thanks. John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Difference between brazed on Pauls and bolt on is night and day. I cannot recommend bolt ons. Too much money for the stopping power you get. On Friday, April 5, 2013 10:10:19 AM UTC-5, jinxed wrote: I'll chime in on at least one comparison. I originally built the Hilsen I owned with Silver side pulls, but later upgraded to Pauls center pulls. I thought this was going to be brake nirvana, but to be completely honest, I felt the Silvers out performed the Pauls in every way. The Silvers were FAR easier to set up, looked better, opened up as wide as the Pauls, AND they modulated and stopped better. Despite having set up literally hundreds of brakes, I was constantly tweaking the Pauls to no satisfaction. Had I not ended up on a cantilevered bike, I would have gone back to side pulls no question. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
If you live a hilly or mountainous area I would choose cantilever or brazed on center pulls every time. I think Silvers are mushy compared to either. If you prefer the look of cantis, well set up they are a good choice. V brakes are a lot easier to set up and keep working right. Good Vs stop as well or better than good cantis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
There was a day when side pulls were viewed as cheap and tacky. Racing bikes had center pulls and touring had cantis. Then, racing bikes started to get better side pulls and all was pretty well until they went to short reach models and reduced tire and fender clearance to nothing. Now that better than ever, longer reach side pulls are available, I see no reason not to make them your first choice for the set up you describe. I've used every type of break and they all stop the bike just fine. The considerations are aesthetics and clearance so if you like side pulls, that's the ticket. Perry loves side pulls for their no fuss minimalist appeal Bessas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Hi John, I have a Rambouillet with Tektro Silvers and a 1988 Trek 520 Reynolds 531 with Shimano cantis. The cantis have better stopping power than the Silvers, however the Silvers are not bad. Overall I prefer cantis for a few reasons. Stopping power is better. I also think they look better on non racing steel frames in general. Also, not having a sidepull brake going through the fork crown hole allows you to use what I believe are better, stronger and more elegant looking front racks. And lastly, cantis will virtually never interfere with fenders. I wish my Rambouillet had cantilevers. I would switch in a heartbeat. Jeff I own Paul Neo Retros which are installed on a Surly Cross Check and love them. Once you adjust and tension the arms, they are virtually trouble free. On Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:25:22 PM UTC-6, john wrote: I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it. Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's. Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike. I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics. The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why? That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a road bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why? I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them? In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice. Thanks. John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Sorry about the break / brake switcheroos. Perry On Apr 5, 2013, at 6:53 AM, bobish bob...@gmail.com wrote: There was a day when side pulls were viewed as cheap and tacky. Racing bikes had center pulls and touring had cantis. Then, racing bikes started to get better side pulls and all was pretty well until they went to short reach models and reduced tire and fender clearance to nothing. Now that better than ever, longer reach side pulls are available, I see no reason not to make them your first choice for the set up you describe. I've used every type of break and they all stop the bike just fine. The considerations are aesthetics and clearance so if you like side pulls, that's the ticket. Perry loves side pulls for their no fuss minimalist appeal Bessas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/Xd1Hgr2KV2w/unsubscribe?hl=en-US. To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Sidepull brakes versus Cantilevers
Since we are contradicting each other here, I'll say that the single pivots I've used, including Royal Grand Comps, work as well as anything else I've used, as long as they are mated with (1) aero levers, (2) Matthauser pads, and (3) decent housing, with interrupted housing to the rear. I use single pivots on my fixies, in front only, and I certainly don't feel underbraked. Dual pivots, properly set up cantis, V brakes, and discs require less hand pressure, but the difference is slight. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote: Compared to the single-pivot Dia-Compe sidepulls on my Bridgestone RB-2, * everything* we have now works great. This type of brake was standard equipment on road bikes back in the heyday of Campagnolo speed reducers, which was market-speak for they're light, but they don't work. On Thursday, April 4, 2013 11:25:22 AM UTC-7, john wrote: I've been searching the archives for a specific topic which I have not found. Excuse me if I missed it. Due to the fact that an auto struck me while riding, ruining the original the fork of my Sam Hillborne (with cantilever studs), I got a replacement fork (Thanks Rivendell!) which didn't have the studs for canti's. Thus, I'm now using Tektro 559 sidepulls, rather than Tektro 720 canti's, which was spec'd on the bike. I've read much about types of brakes, their various attributes, and etc. Some argue cantilevers have more stopping power (greater mechanical advantage) than sidepulls. Some argue side pulls are simple, elegant, and easier to adjust. Some say, racers have been using sidepulls for years, why not me? Others say neither option is the best; centerpull brakes are the way to go. Then, there is the linear pull brake (V brake), which is another type of cantilever, I believe. Not to mention disc brakes, both mechanical and hydraulic Although I value statistical analysis (Bike Quarterly), I prefer to hear from people who actually ride certain brakes, and what the like, and dislike. I'm not enough of a tech-minded person to stay with all the detail of mechanics. The question is this: Those of you who have used both cantilevers and sidepulls on a Rivendell frame (especially on a Sam Hill, but any will do, I think), which do you prefer for stopping power (not aesthetics), and why? That is to say, if you were to spec a new bike, and it were a road bike, not intended for touring with massive loads but for day rides, multiday tours, even touring any distance with less than 50 pounds, which brakes would you choose, and why? I'm interested in knowing why Rivendell changed their choice of brakes on the stock Sam Hill. from a cantilevered bike to a side pull spec'd bike. Perhaps they save cost in frame production? Perhaps they prefer sidepulls? Perhaps they needed to purchase many of their designed Tektro 559's in order for Tektro to make them? In any case, I'd be curious to hear what folks have to say on the topic. As for myself...I'm still on the fence. I like the sidepull's looks much better. I like the ease of adjustment. I think their stopping power is not as great as the cantilevers - at least compared to my Tektro 720 cantilevers with yokozuma pads. But they're close. Close enough? Depends on how steep the hill, how much weight is on the bike, and etc., of course. In the end, I know it's a very personal choice. Thanks. John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- http://resumespecialties.com/index.html patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com __ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
