Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Patrick Moore]

I've told this anecdote many times before, but don't let that stop me. I
once carried 50 lb on a Tubus Fly attached to a lightweight -- noticeably
lighter than my Riv Roads -- 531 1973 Motobecane Grand Record (brake bridge
mounting and the frame had fender eyelets IIRC). It handled such loads
better than my Sam, my Ram, my 2003 Curt, my 2020 Matthews Curt clone, etc
etc etc. Sure, there was initial tail wag upon a transition to standing --
I grunted it up a 4/10 mile long very steep hill at 4 mph on my computer --
20 rpm in the 67" gear IIRC -- but it went away in a second after the
transition. Usual rear loads were in the 25 to 40 lb range.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 1:28 PM Chester  wrote:

> ... I'd sometimes go grocery shopping and load everything into one or two
> of the Ortliebs. Probably mostly just 15-25 pounds. Wasn't going far, so
> affect on handling didn't really matter, even though this was on a bike
> with race geo. Didn't have mounting eyelets on front fork so I was limited
> to a rear rack.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Chester]

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 3:42:11 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

I used to put my work kit into a shoulder bag and put that bag into my 
Carradice Camper Longflap; I still don't understand the advantages of a big 
front basket except that you don't need to undo and re-do straps.


Probably the undoing and redoing of straps is the big disadvantage, at 
least when it comes to using a bike as urban transport, in an area where a 
saddlebag is likely to get stolen. It's a pain if you're hopping around.

That said, I used to have a laptop and misc inside a bag that I'd chuck 
into an Ortlieb Back Roller. To get the work bag off my back, and also to 
put it into something totally waterproof. It was super convenient, still, 
to click the Ortlieb right off. 

I'd sometimes go grocery shopping and load everything into one or two of 
the Ortliebs. Probably mostly just 15-25 pounds. Wasn't going far, so 
affect on handling didn't really matter, even though this was on a bike 
with race geo. Didn't have mounting eyelets on front fork so I was limited 
to a rear rack.

Chester
SF Bay Area
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[John Rinker]

The marmot abides.

On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 at 1:21:18 PM UTC-8 Jacob Kersey wrote:

> Nice marmot.
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:51:18 PM UTC-8 John Rinker wrote:
>
>> My pet marmot much prefers to ride in the airy, open basket rather than 
>> buckled in the dark recesses of my Sackville. It's a thing of beauty to 
>> watch the wind whip through her fur and hear the whistle through her 
>> whiskers!
>> [image: Screen Shot 2024-02-01 at 7.49.01 PM.png]
>>
>> Also, what Brenton and Neale said.
>>
>> Cheers, 
>>
>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:18:27 PM UTC-8 brenton...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If you ever want to bike-pack and go somewhere remote or accessible via 
>>> single track, having your luggage up in a basket, frame bag, saddlebag, 
>>> avoids the risk of catching a pannier (or both) on roots, branches, downed 
>>> trees cut just wide enough for passage, etc.
>>>
>>> I learned this the hard way on my first bicycle overnighter. My old 
>>> bikes' panniers made it really hard to get to our campsite on the bike. I 
>>> think panniers make sense, and they will come back into "trend" soon. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 6:19:53 PM UTC-8 Neale S. wrote:
>>>
 One reason to put some weight on the front of the bike is that all of 
 your (body) weight is mostly on the rear already.
 On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:

> I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city 
> and dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my 
> daily 
> bag to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, 
> easier to pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off 
> if i get hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i 
> dont really mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was 
> different maybe id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at 
> least a small basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it 
> looks too.
>
> -stephen
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:47:17 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the 
>> bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of 
>> riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads 
>> biased toward the rear and not the front.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:18 PM ian m  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag 
>>> than into a baske
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Jacob Kersey]

Nice marmot.

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:51:18 PM UTC-8 John Rinker wrote:

> My pet marmot much prefers to ride in the airy, open basket rather than 
> buckled in the dark recesses of my Sackville. It's a thing of beauty to 
> watch the wind whip through her fur and hear the whistle through her 
> whiskers!
> [image: Screen Shot 2024-02-01 at 7.49.01 PM.png]
>
> Also, what Brenton and Neale said.
>
> Cheers, 
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:18:27 PM UTC-8 brenton...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> If you ever want to bike-pack and go somewhere remote or accessible via 
>> single track, having your luggage up in a basket, frame bag, saddlebag, 
>> avoids the risk of catching a pannier (or both) on roots, branches, downed 
>> trees cut just wide enough for passage, etc.
>>
>> I learned this the hard way on my first bicycle overnighter. My old 
>> bikes' panniers made it really hard to get to our campsite on the bike. I 
>> think panniers make sense, and they will come back into "trend" soon. 
>>
>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 6:19:53 PM UTC-8 Neale S. wrote:
>>
>>> One reason to put some weight on the front of the bike is that all of 
>>> your (body) weight is mostly on the rear already.
>>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:
>>>
 I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and 
 dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily 
 bag 
 to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier 
 to 
 pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get 
 hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont 
 really 
 mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was different maybe 
 id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at least a small 
 basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it looks too.

 -stephen

 On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:47:17 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the 
> bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of 
> riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads 
> biased toward the rear and not the front.
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:18 PM ian m  wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag 
>> than into a baske
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Patrick Moore]

I do the same thing with all my bikes. I've used VeloRetro musettes tightly
wadded up and stuffed in seat wedges -- Chuck Schmidt will do custom photo
prints (there's a tech term I forget) and I have Beryl Burton at time-trial
speed and I lost Reg Harris in an all-out effort near the finish line) but
his stock designs are all very interesting; have Dubonnet and one more
retro-commercial logo that I now forget because the musette has been buried
for months in a seat wedge.

But for even greater compactness at a reasonable price, Rene Herse musettes
are even better, and they're black, so they don't soil like the white VR
ones do.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 3:30 PM Chris Halasz  wrote:

> A hack I now use that may be obvious to others on this list for unexpected
> pop-up bike storage, such as for stopping for one small item at the store
> and walking out with five or six items:
>
> I stow a thin, light, nylon musette-type bag stuffed inside a small bar or
> saddle bag. That way the musette is expandable, and once removed from the
> small bar or saddle bag, I've got that cavity available to fill as well.
>
> More and more I try to carry less and less on longer rides, and longer
> rides for me typically include a half hour ascent from the front door. I
> don't typically use a rack any longer, or even a large bag front or rear.
> Fortunate to live within walking distance of many nice grocery stores.
>

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[RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Chris Halasz]

A hack I now use that may be obvious to others on this list for unexpected 
pop-up bike storage, such as for stopping for one small item at the store 
and walking out with five or six items: 

I stow a thin, light, nylon musette-type bag stuffed inside a small bar or 
saddle bag. That way the musette is expandable, and once removed from the 
small bar or saddle bag, I've got that cavity available to fill as well. 

More and more I try to carry less and less on longer rides, and longer 
rides for me typically include a half hour ascent from the front door. I 
don't typically use a rack any longer, or even a large bag front or rear. 
Fortunate to live within walking distance of many nice grocery stores. 

- Chris 

On Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 11:35:08 AM UTC-8 velomann wrote:

> I've done quite a bit of self-supported touring over the years, mostly 
> solo, and I pretty quickly transitioned away from using a rear rack and 
> rear panniers as soon as I started riding a low-trail 650b bike (my Ocean 
> Air Cycles Rambler, RIP). I don't imagine I'll ever go back now. Both of my 
> overnight touring bikes (Bantam Adventure bike and Bantam disc tourer) are 
> designed for - and handle superbly with - most of the baggage weight 
> forward. On the tourer I use an Acorn rando bag and front lowrider panniers 
> (Swift Short stack), with either a Swift Zeitgeist or Carradice Nelson 
> Longflap saddlebag. this set-up equalizes the fore/aft weight distribution 
> and I can easily ride no-hands fully loaded.
>
> For my Adventurebike, I don't use any panniers. I can fit everything I 
> need in the front Fabio's Chest (sits on a custom front rack) and a Jack 
> Supply Slugger mounted as a saddlebag 
> https://www.jacksupplyco.com/shop/p/yolbwkp5ijyayzoys6p6rtzbhm1ws2
>
> But I've got 5 other bikes set up for front load carrying as well. My Riv 
> Hillborne, My Univega Via Carrisma (converted to Singlespeed) and my 89 
> Rock hopper all have Wald 137 baskets, with either an Outershell Basket Bag 
> or a Swift Sugarloaf. The Hillborne also  has a Swift Zeitgeist saddlebag.
>
> Another possibility for front loading that I HIGHLY recommend is the Jack 
> The Bike Rack from Wholegrain Cycles https://wholegraincycles.com/
> I got in on the 2-for-1 Kickstarter, and have one mounted on my fixie and 
> the other on my beater Diamondback Apex, and they are fantastic. I just use 
> the straps to mount a big tote bag, but they work just as well for a Wald 
> 137, or strapping on firewood, or whatever you want to carry.
>
> Mike M
>
>
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 2:14:32 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear 
>> saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has 
>> perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv 
>> saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns 
>> and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so 
>> saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and 
>> it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main 
>> reason I got it) than the Junior.
>>
>> I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted 
>> baskets and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and 
>> I've tried huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front, 
>> at least on medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable, 
>> quick-cornering handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't 
>> handle as I liked ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either 
>> sizable rear or front loads.
>>
>> But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting -- 
>> I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so 
>> much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in 
>> thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1 
>> old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH 
>> Riv Road clone).
>>
>> I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be able 
>> to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced that 
>> very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, low-trail 
>> fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on 
>> non-low-trail Rivendells?
>>
>> 49 lb:
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> Longboard:
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing 
>> services
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own 

[RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[velomann]

I've done quite a bit of self-supported touring over the years, mostly 
solo, and I pretty quickly transitioned away from using a rear rack and 
rear panniers as soon as I started riding a low-trail 650b bike (my Ocean 
Air Cycles Rambler, RIP). I don't imagine I'll ever go back now. Both of my 
overnight touring bikes (Bantam Adventure bike and Bantam disc tourer) are 
designed for - and handle superbly with - most of the baggage weight 
forward. On the tourer I use an Acorn rando bag and front lowrider panniers 
(Swift Short stack), with either a Swift Zeitgeist or Carradice Nelson 
Longflap saddlebag. this set-up equalizes the fore/aft weight distribution 
and I can easily ride no-hands fully loaded.

For my Adventurebike, I don't use any panniers. I can fit everything I need 
in the front Fabio's Chest (sits on a custom front rack) and a Jack Supply 
Slugger mounted as a 
saddlebag https://www.jacksupplyco.com/shop/p/yolbwkp5ijyayzoys6p6rtzbhm1ws2

But I've got 5 other bikes set up for front load carrying as well. My Riv 
Hillborne, My Univega Via Carrisma (converted to Singlespeed) and my 89 
Rock hopper all have Wald 137 baskets, with either an Outershell Basket Bag 
or a Swift Sugarloaf. The Hillborne also  has a Swift Zeitgeist saddlebag.

Another possibility for front loading that I HIGHLY recommend is the Jack 
The Bike Rack from Wholegrain Cycles https://wholegraincycles.com/
I got in on the 2-for-1 Kickstarter, and have one mounted on my fixie and 
the other on my beater Diamondback Apex, and they are fantastic. I just use 
the straps to mount a big tote bag, but they work just as well for a Wald 
137, or strapping on firewood, or whatever you want to carry.

Mike M



On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 2:14:32 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear 
> saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has 
> perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv 
> saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns 
> and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so 
> saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and 
> it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main 
> reason I got it) than the Junior.
>
> I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted baskets 
> and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and I've tried 
> huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front, at least on 
> medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable, quick-cornering 
> handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't handle as I liked 
> ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either sizable rear or front 
> loads.
>
> But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting -- 
> I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so 
> much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in 
> thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1 
> old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH 
> Riv Road clone).
>
> I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be able 
> to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced that 
> very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, low-trail 
> fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on 
> non-low-trail Rivendells?
>
> 49 lb:
> [image: image.png]
>
> Longboard:
> [image: image.png]
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
> ---
>
> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing 
> services
>
>
> ---
>
> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*
>
> *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*
>
> *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Richard Rose]

Kai, very interesting. But this pic is beyond category!Sent from my iPhoneOn Feb 2, 2024, at 10:19 PM, Kainalu V.  -Brooklyn NY  wrote:I’ve got a bike with no top tube, and since there’s no top tube, I think it’s best to load the front so’s to avoid the certain twistability of a step-through. I keep tools and tubes out back, and have a teeny rack to hold a rear light, but that’s it for the back. You’ve mentioned, Patrick, that you may be interested in picking up a Rivendell step-through in the future, if you do, I’d stick to front loads. And Carnival cruise lines put more up front, so there’s that scientific proof…Happy carrying!-Kai On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main reason I got it) than the Junior.I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted baskets and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and I've tried huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front, at least on medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable, quick-cornering handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't handle as I liked ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either sizable rear or front loads.But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting -- I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1 old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH Riv Road clone).I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be able to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced that very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, low-trail fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on non-low-trail Rivendells?49 lb:Longboard:-- Patrick MooreAlburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum---Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing services---When thou didst not, savage, know thine own meaning,But wouldst gabble like a thing most brutish,I endowed thy purposes with words that made them known.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Patrick Moore]

I want to see Keith P's *racing basket!*

Patrick "I can live with a racing basket" Moore


On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 3:04 PM vernon brooks 
wrote:

> I’ve tried out a lot of different set ups with my Atlantis and ultimately
> landed on handlebar bag with Mini front rack. Having a basket is nice for
> hauling stuff around, but I found it feels a little clunky and out of place
> because I primarily ride drop bars. I am in the process of restoring a
> Rambouillet for my wife that will get albatross bars and a front basket.
> Very excited for the build frame is at D getting a fresh paint job from
> Rick.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[vernon brooks]

I’ve tried out a lot of different set ups with my Atlantis and ultimately
landed on handlebar bag with Mini front rack. Having a basket is nice for
hauling stuff around, but I found it feels a little clunky and out of place
because I primarily ride drop bars. I am in the process of restoring a
Rambouillet for my wife that will get albatross bars and a front basket.
Very excited for the build frame is at D getting a fresh paint job from
Rick.

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 1:59 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Photo of Lightning Bolt, please?
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 2:54 PM ian m  wrote:
>
>> No harm no foul. My newest bike is a Crust Lightning Bolt currently
>> sporting a front basket, wide(ish) drop bars, platform pedals, a leather
>> saddle, and XTR rapid rise derailer. Everything I want out of a road(ish)
>> bike.
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Patrick Moore]

Photo of Lightning Bolt, please?

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 2:54 PM ian m  wrote:

> No harm no foul. My newest bike is a Crust Lightning Bolt currently
> sporting a front basket, wide(ish) drop bars, platform pedals, a leather
> saddle, and XTR rapid rise derailer. Everything I want out of a road(ish)
> bike.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[ian m]

No harm no foul. My newest bike is a Crust Lightning Bolt currently 
sporting a front basket, wide(ish) drop bars, platform pedals, a leather 
saddle, and XTR rapid rise derailer. Everything I want out of a road(ish) 
bike.

On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 4:00:48 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> Good point; I was thinking about bar type and position and rider position 
> in this preference equation. 
>
> While I do all my grocery shopping by bike, I rarely carry 50 lb of of 
> stuff and when I do I have front lowriders and a smaller pair of Ortliebs 
> for those. A good balance is 30-35 rear and 15-20 front; of course you do 
> need to get the front load balanced to within about 5 lb per side. Not so 
> the rear; just got back with only 14 lb today but all in the rear and all 
> on one side.
>
> And I apologize to Ian for being a bit short; long day of dealing with 
> resume clients. (Note for those of you who plan to hire me: I give good 
> customer service and very good quality of result. But not cheap.)
>
> Patrick Moore, contrarian, who also dislikes wide bars, platform pedals, 
> leather saddles, and reverse-pull derailleurs (but finds Grant's contrarian 
> streak one of Rivendell's big draws).
>
> https://youtu.be/oK4FZ3ks17M?t=98
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 12:54 PM EGNolan  wrote:
>
>> In my experience, as handlebars get higher and closer to the rider the 
>> better some weight in a basket works. The dual effect of reducing front end 
>> weight (lightening the front wheel & feel) AND increasing body weight on 
>> the rear end of the bike makes a front load seem ideal. If you ride drops, 
>> especially below saddle height, I imagine you'd feel the additional weight 
>> much more acutely than I do.  I've had shoulder problems for a long time 
>> and prefer Bosco's or similar on most of my builds. My 98 Riv Road 
>> (converted to 650b w/ 42's) did not want front weight when I picked it up 
>> w/ drops that were out and down. Once converted to uprights it feels better 
>> with rack, basket and at least lock than it does unweighted. 
>>
>> Why a basket & bag over front panniers? To me it's easier to balance the 
>> load with my disheveled loading process. It's also somehow less serious 
>> looking. Front/Rear panniers seem like a serious touring set up, a basket 
>> feels like riding for fun. I DO use a Riv Large saddlebag for grocery 
>> getting (in addition to the front basket & bag) & a banana sack for 
>> everyday use.
>>
>> To sum it up, I think rider position + geometry dictate where the weight 
>> will feel best, however, one can get used to about anything on a bike given 
>> time. 
>>
>> Happy Riding,
>> Eric N
>> Indpls
>>
>> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 1:36:29 PM UTC-5 John Rinker wrote:
>>
>>> Patrick,
>>>
>>> Lovely photo of the flowers in the panniers. 
>>>
>>> This discussion, like many about human preferences, it's so much about 
>>> our habits and that to which we've become accustomed. 
>>>
>>> An argument can be made that flowers are better carried in a front 
>>> basket so the rider can enjoy both the view, the scent, and the pleasant 
>>> thoughts of the recipient of such a beautiful gift.
>>>
>>> Cheers, John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 10:09:23 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
 This is a very good reply; yes, I am very attached to rear loads on 
 Rivendells, have always come back to good rack and panniers for serious 
 load carrying, and have found my Rivs to suit rear loads while being 
 awkward with front loads, but yes, that is simply my preference.

 Anyway, interesting to hear others' opinions and reasons. 

 I liked the baby and marmot in baskets. Instance to contrary: Recall 
 seeing a young man riding around carrying his miniature Chihuahua in a 
 backpack with nose sticking out. I can't get any of my dogs to like 
 wheeled 
 transportation, front or rear or automobile.

 Favorite old photo of rear load:

 [image: image.png]



 On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 8:51 PM Alex K  wrote:

> There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and 
> bags are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes 
> handle with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that 
> comes from overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a 
> Costco 
> run or carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have 
> tried it all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm 
> on 
> a long tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift 
> Industries Jr. Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue 
> Panda Frame bag and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide 
> enough storage space for me. 
>
> It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it 
> suits his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses 

Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Patrick Moore]

Good point; I was thinking about bar type and position and rider position
in this preference equation.

While I do all my grocery shopping by bike, I rarely carry 50 lb of of
stuff and when I do I have front lowriders and a smaller pair of Ortliebs
for those. A good balance is 30-35 rear and 15-20 front; of course you do
need to get the front load balanced to within about 5 lb per side. Not so
the rear; just got back with only 14 lb today but all in the rear and all
on one side.

And I apologize to Ian for being a bit short; long day of dealing with
resume clients. (Note for those of you who plan to hire me: I give good
customer service and very good quality of result. But not cheap.)

Patrick Moore, contrarian, who also dislikes wide bars, platform pedals,
leather saddles, and reverse-pull derailleurs (but finds Grant's contrarian
streak one of Rivendell's big draws).

https://youtu.be/oK4FZ3ks17M?t=98

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 12:54 PM EGNolan  wrote:

> In my experience, as handlebars get higher and closer to the rider the
> better some weight in a basket works. The dual effect of reducing front end
> weight (lightening the front wheel & feel) AND increasing body weight on
> the rear end of the bike makes a front load seem ideal. If you ride drops,
> especially below saddle height, I imagine you'd feel the additional weight
> much more acutely than I do.  I've had shoulder problems for a long time
> and prefer Bosco's or similar on most of my builds. My 98 Riv Road
> (converted to 650b w/ 42's) did not want front weight when I picked it up
> w/ drops that were out and down. Once converted to uprights it feels better
> with rack, basket and at least lock than it does unweighted.
>
> Why a basket & bag over front panniers? To me it's easier to balance the
> load with my disheveled loading process. It's also somehow less serious
> looking. Front/Rear panniers seem like a serious touring set up, a basket
> feels like riding for fun. I DO use a Riv Large saddlebag for grocery
> getting (in addition to the front basket & bag) & a banana sack for
> everyday use.
>
> To sum it up, I think rider position + geometry dictate where the weight
> will feel best, however, one can get used to about anything on a bike given
> time.
>
> Happy Riding,
> Eric N
> Indpls
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 1:36:29 PM UTC-5 John Rinker wrote:
>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> Lovely photo of the flowers in the panniers.
>>
>> This discussion, like many about human preferences, it's so much about
>> our habits and that to which we've become accustomed.
>>
>> An argument can be made that flowers are better carried in a front basket
>> so the rider can enjoy both the view, the scent, and the pleasant thoughts
>> of the recipient of such a beautiful gift.
>>
>> Cheers, John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 10:09:23 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> This is a very good reply; yes, I am very attached to rear loads on
>>> Rivendells, have always come back to good rack and panniers for serious
>>> load carrying, and have found my Rivs to suit rear loads while being
>>> awkward with front loads, but yes, that is simply my preference.
>>>
>>> Anyway, interesting to hear others' opinions and reasons.
>>>
>>> I liked the baby and marmot in baskets. Instance to contrary: Recall
>>> seeing a young man riding around carrying his miniature Chihuahua in a
>>> backpack with nose sticking out. I can't get any of my dogs to like wheeled
>>> transportation, front or rear or automobile.
>>>
>>> Favorite old photo of rear load:
>>>
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 8:51 PM Alex K  wrote:
>>>
 There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and
 bags are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes
 handle with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that
 comes from overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a Costco
 run or carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have
 tried it all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm on
 a long tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift
 Industries Jr. Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue
 Panda Frame bag and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide
 enough storage space for me.

 It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it
 suits his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some of
 the replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that
 there is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal.
 That's why we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the
 bike style and set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand
 rear-weight, simply because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails on
 a chalkboard to me. I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front loads,
 I 

[RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Bill Lindsay]

Any reply from me would be mostly irrelevant because of the OP use case: 
 carrying 50 pounds of groceries.  I never (never) carry 50 pounds of 
groceries on a bicycle.  I do often carry 1-5 pounds of stuff on general 
bicycle errands.  Sometimes I take bike parts down to the post office to 
mail them to you guys.  Sometimes I go to the hardware store or the bicycle 
shop to pick up a few things.  Sometimes I go on a ride that involves a 
significant temperature swing and I have clothes that go on or come off. 
 Anytime I'm parking my bike I am carrying a small lock.  For all those 
things, a basket and front bag are preferred (by me).  Maybe the OP never 
does those smaller scale errands, but I promise I never do 50-pound grocery 
runs on my bicycle.  The times where I do carry 50 pounds of stuff on my 
bicycle would be S24O and touring, and for those applications I load up the 
front lowrider panniers first, then the rear lowrider panniers, then the 
basket bag, and then the top platform of the rear rack.  

I have a new Rivendell Saddlebag.  I don't remember the model because it's 
buried in one of my bag boxes.  I don't remember if this one has ever been 
used.  Maybe I'll pull it out and give it another chance.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA
On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 2:14:32 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear 
> saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has 
> perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv 
> saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns 
> and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so 
> saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and 
> it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main 
> reason I got it) than the Junior.
>
> I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted baskets 
> and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and I've tried 
> huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front, at least on 
> medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable, quick-cornering 
> handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't handle as I liked 
> ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either sizable rear or front 
> loads.
>
> But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting -- 
> I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so 
> much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in 
> thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1 
> old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH 
> Riv Road clone).
>
> I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be able 
> to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced that 
> very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, low-trail 
> fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on 
> non-low-trail Rivendells?
>
> 49 lb:
> [image: image.png]
>
> Longboard:
> [image: image.png]
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
> ---
>
> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing 
> services
>
>
> ---
>
> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*
>
> *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*
>
> *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[EGNolan]

In my experience, as handlebars get higher and closer to the rider the 
better some weight in a basket works. The dual effect of reducing front end 
weight (lightening the front wheel & feel) AND increasing body weight on 
the rear end of the bike makes a front load seem ideal. If you ride drops, 
especially below saddle height, I imagine you'd feel the additional weight 
much more acutely than I do.  I've had shoulder problems for a long time 
and prefer Bosco's or similar on most of my builds. My 98 Riv Road 
(converted to 650b w/ 42's) did not want front weight when I picked it up 
w/ drops that were out and down. Once converted to uprights it feels better 
with rack, basket and at least lock than it does unweighted. 

Why a basket & bag over front panniers? To me it's easier to balance the 
load with my disheveled loading process. It's also somehow less serious 
looking. Front/Rear panniers seem like a serious touring set up, a basket 
feels like riding for fun. I DO use a Riv Large saddlebag for grocery 
getting (in addition to the front basket & bag) & a banana sack for 
everyday use.

To sum it up, I think rider position + geometry dictate where the weight 
will feel best, however, one can get used to about anything on a bike given 
time. 

Happy Riding,
Eric N
Indpls

On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 1:36:29 PM UTC-5 John Rinker wrote:

> Patrick,
>
> Lovely photo of the flowers in the panniers. 
>
> This discussion, like many about human preferences, it's so much about our 
> habits and that to which we've become accustomed. 
>
> An argument can be made that flowers are better carried in a front basket 
> so the rider can enjoy both the view, the scent, and the pleasant thoughts 
> of the recipient of such a beautiful gift.
>
> Cheers, John
>
>
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 10:09:23 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> This is a very good reply; yes, I am very attached to rear loads on 
>> Rivendells, have always come back to good rack and panniers for serious 
>> load carrying, and have found my Rivs to suit rear loads while being 
>> awkward with front loads, but yes, that is simply my preference.
>>
>> Anyway, interesting to hear others' opinions and reasons. 
>>
>> I liked the baby and marmot in baskets. Instance to contrary: Recall 
>> seeing a young man riding around carrying his miniature Chihuahua in a 
>> backpack with nose sticking out. I can't get any of my dogs to like wheeled 
>> transportation, front or rear or automobile.
>>
>> Favorite old photo of rear load:
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 8:51 PM Alex K  wrote:
>>
>>> There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and bags 
>>> are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes handle 
>>> with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that comes from 
>>> overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a Costco run or 
>>> carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have tried it 
>>> all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm on a long 
>>> tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift Industries Jr. 
>>> Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue Panda Frame bag 
>>> and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide enough storage space 
>>> for me. 
>>>
>>> It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it suits 
>>> his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some of the 
>>> replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that there 
>>> is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal. That's why 
>>> we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the bike style and 
>>> set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand rear-weight, simply 
>>> because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails on a chalkboard to me. 
>>> I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front loads, I just find it more 
>>> pleasing to look at. 
>>>
>>> Final point: I don't think that The Everyman rides Rivendells. Folks who 
>>> can afford these bikes are a privileged few, and many of us have spent 
>>> YEARS tinkering, switching out racks, switching out bags, saddlebags, 
>>> Fabio's Chests, Carradice bags, etc. etc. So the fact that so many 
>>> Rivendell-listers choose to ride with front baskets and bags means that 
>>> through trial and error, we have decided that it works better for us and it 
>>> "feels better." NOT saying it IS better, even though I feel just as 
>>> strongly about front-loading as OP does about rear-loading. But if we all 
>>> rode the same way, how boring this would all be and how would I be able to 
>>> pick up cheap niche bike gear at a discounted rate when all you indecisive 
>>> Riv Riders decide that "PAUL BRAKES ARE OUT AND V-BRAKES ARE IN!!!" or 
>>> "BROOKS SADDLES ARE OVERRATED. I NEED A BERTHOUD!!!"
>>>
>>> (And babies like riding in front-baskets)
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: 

Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[John Rinker]

Patrick,

Lovely photo of the flowers in the panniers. 

This discussion, like many about human preferences, it's so much about our 
habits and that to which we've become accustomed. 

An argument can be made that flowers are better carried in a front basket 
so the rider can enjoy both the view, the scent, and the pleasant thoughts 
of the recipient of such a beautiful gift.

Cheers, John



On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 10:09:23 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

> This is a very good reply; yes, I am very attached to rear loads on 
> Rivendells, have always come back to good rack and panniers for serious 
> load carrying, and have found my Rivs to suit rear loads while being 
> awkward with front loads, but yes, that is simply my preference.
>
> Anyway, interesting to hear others' opinions and reasons. 
>
> I liked the baby and marmot in baskets. Instance to contrary: Recall 
> seeing a young man riding around carrying his miniature Chihuahua in a 
> backpack with nose sticking out. I can't get any of my dogs to like wheeled 
> transportation, front or rear or automobile.
>
> Favorite old photo of rear load:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 8:51 PM Alex K  wrote:
>
>> There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and bags 
>> are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes handle 
>> with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that comes from 
>> overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a Costco run or 
>> carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have tried it 
>> all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm on a long 
>> tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift Industries Jr. 
>> Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue Panda Frame bag 
>> and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide enough storage space 
>> for me. 
>>
>> It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it suits 
>> his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some of the 
>> replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that there 
>> is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal. That's why 
>> we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the bike style and 
>> set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand rear-weight, simply 
>> because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails on a chalkboard to me. 
>> I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front loads, I just find it more 
>> pleasing to look at. 
>>
>> Final point: I don't think that The Everyman rides Rivendells. Folks who 
>> can afford these bikes are a privileged few, and many of us have spent 
>> YEARS tinkering, switching out racks, switching out bags, saddlebags, 
>> Fabio's Chests, Carradice bags, etc. etc. So the fact that so many 
>> Rivendell-listers choose to ride with front baskets and bags means that 
>> through trial and error, we have decided that it works better for us and it 
>> "feels better." NOT saying it IS better, even though I feel just as 
>> strongly about front-loading as OP does about rear-loading. But if we all 
>> rode the same way, how boring this would all be and how would I be able to 
>> pick up cheap niche bike gear at a discounted rate when all you indecisive 
>> Riv Riders decide that "PAUL BRAKES ARE OUT AND V-BRAKES ARE IN!!!" or 
>> "BROOKS SADDLES ARE OVERRATED. I NEED A BERTHOUD!!!"
>>
>> (And babies like riding in front-baskets)
>>
>>
>> [image: 0-1.jpg][image: IMG_5539.jpg][image: IMG_7392.jpg]
>>
>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and 
>>> dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily bag 
>>> to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier to 
>>> pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get 
>>> hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont really 
>>> mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was different maybe 
>>> id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at least a small 
>>> basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it looks too.
>>>
>>> -stephen
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:47:17 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
 IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the 
 bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of 
 riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads 
 biased toward the rear and not the front.

 On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:18 PM ian m  wrote:

> I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag 
> than into a baske

 -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Chris Halasz]

I concur with Patrick's assessment for his criteria. 

Popping off and on a set of Ortliebs is so quick and clean, and they carry 
so much, and roll up so nicely, and the handy shoulder straps make them 
great for shopping, farmer's market or otherwise. 

As for weight, our little ten-pound Dorkie loved a bike ride, and while she 
preferred the front basket, when we transition her basket to the rear rack, 
the stability (she loved to move around, especially side-to-side on 
corners) improvement was significant. 

Cheers

Chris

On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 7:02:44 AM UTC-8 Shoji Takahashi wrote:

> I, too, have tried many iterations. My go-to for my commute is saddlesack 
> and front basket. I can fit almost all my stuff in the saddlesack. The 
> front basket is for taking off my jacket or occasional stops to the library 
> or grocery. 
>
> When I've ridden in and stopped at a place where I'm not sure about bike 
> safety, the saddlesack is a bummer, though. Panniers are good for that 
> use... The saddlesack is so large and out of the way if one's not worried 
> about it getting stolen.
>
> Shoji
> arlington MA
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 8:57:07 AM UTC-5 brok...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I think a bike looks and feels incredibly unbalanced with just two big 
>> stuffed rear panniers. Like many here have stated, the super noodly 
>> rear-end just isn't desirable. And, if you're carrying so much stuff that 
>> you're filling two big panniers, why not balance the load a bit more and 
>> carry some gear up front? Like Samwise Gamgee says, "share the load".
>>
>> -Brian
>> Lex KY 
>>
>> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 7:54:54 AM UTC-5 Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>>> If we're comparing front loads, poppers and ribs
>>>
>>> [image: wVRl7xH.jpg] [image: 4MaD0iL.jpg]
>>> [image: hws6znn.jpg] [image: Sn20Bp4.jpg]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 12:15:37 AM UTC-6 kiziria...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Best is both worlds! A 137 up front with either my swift sugarloaf or 
 shopsack and 1 or 2 panniers in the rear. About all one could ask for with 
 nearly all day-long commuting or utilitarian purposes. I scored the most 
 recent version of an Ortlieb Vario off eBay. That has been the ultimate 
 solution. As much as I despise the hyper-engineered materials and 
 manufacturing processes, they have come up with a design so good that it 
 has reduced my resistance to some rides previously (needing a backpack, 
 but 
 not wanting to carry one, and not wanting to put it awkwardly in a basket, 
 or another pannier). I've gotten it down to maybe 3-5 seconds to switch 
 between pannier and backpack. What seals the deal, is that it holds weight 
 *exceptionally 
 well* as a backpack and is very comfortable, which I think no other 
 convertible backpack/panniers previously do very well. I use it every day 
 and carry significant weight of a mobile office into a co-working space. 
 Even if I paid full price, the value is very much there for me. 

 On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:51:20 PM UTC-8 ack...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and 
> bags are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes 
> handle with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that 
> comes from overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a 
> Costco 
> run or carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have 
> tried it all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm 
> on 
> a long tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift 
> Industries Jr. Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue 
> Panda Frame bag and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide 
> enough storage space for me. 
>
> It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it 
> suits his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some 
> of 
> the replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that 
> there is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal. 
> That's why we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the 
> bike style and set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand 
> rear-weight, simply because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails 
> on 
> a chalkboard to me. I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front 
> loads, 
> I just find it more pleasing to look at. 
>
> Final point: I don't think that The Everyman rides Rivendells. Folks 
> who can afford these bikes are a privileged few, and many of us have 
> spent 
> YEARS tinkering, switching out racks, switching out bags, saddlebags, 
> Fabio's Chests, Carradice bags, etc. etc. So the fact that so many 
> Rivendell-listers choose to ride with front baskets and bags 

Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Shoji Takahashi]

I, too, have tried many iterations. My go-to for my commute is saddlesack 
and front basket. I can fit almost all my stuff in the saddlesack. The 
front basket is for taking off my jacket or occasional stops to the library 
or grocery. 

When I've ridden in and stopped at a place where I'm not sure about bike 
safety, the saddlesack is a bummer, though. Panniers are good for that 
use... The saddlesack is so large and out of the way if one's not worried 
about it getting stolen.

Shoji
arlington MA

On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 8:57:07 AM UTC-5 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

> I think a bike looks and feels incredibly unbalanced with just two big 
> stuffed rear panniers. Like many here have stated, the super noodly 
> rear-end just isn't desirable. And, if you're carrying so much stuff that 
> you're filling two big panniers, why not balance the load a bit more and 
> carry some gear up front? Like Samwise Gamgee says, "share the load".
>
> -Brian
> Lex KY 
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 7:54:54 AM UTC-5 Ron Mc wrote:
>
>> If we're comparing front loads, poppers and ribs
>>
>> [image: wVRl7xH.jpg] [image: 4MaD0iL.jpg]
>> [image: hws6znn.jpg] [image: Sn20Bp4.jpg]
>>
>>
>> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 12:15:37 AM UTC-6 kiziria...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Best is both worlds! A 137 up front with either my swift sugarloaf or 
>>> shopsack and 1 or 2 panniers in the rear. About all one could ask for with 
>>> nearly all day-long commuting or utilitarian purposes. I scored the most 
>>> recent version of an Ortlieb Vario off eBay. That has been the ultimate 
>>> solution. As much as I despise the hyper-engineered materials and 
>>> manufacturing processes, they have come up with a design so good that it 
>>> has reduced my resistance to some rides previously (needing a backpack, but 
>>> not wanting to carry one, and not wanting to put it awkwardly in a basket, 
>>> or another pannier). I've gotten it down to maybe 3-5 seconds to switch 
>>> between pannier and backpack. What seals the deal, is that it holds weight 
>>> *exceptionally 
>>> well* as a backpack and is very comfortable, which I think no other 
>>> convertible backpack/panniers previously do very well. I use it every day 
>>> and carry significant weight of a mobile office into a co-working space. 
>>> Even if I paid full price, the value is very much there for me. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:51:20 PM UTC-8 ack...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and 
 bags are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes 
 handle with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that 
 comes from overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a 
 Costco 
 run or carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have 
 tried it all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm 
 on 
 a long tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift 
 Industries Jr. Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue 
 Panda Frame bag and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide 
 enough storage space for me. 

 It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it 
 suits his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some of 
 the replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that 
 there is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal. 
 That's why we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the 
 bike style and set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand 
 rear-weight, simply because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails 
 on 
 a chalkboard to me. I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front 
 loads, 
 I just find it more pleasing to look at. 

 Final point: I don't think that The Everyman rides Rivendells. Folks 
 who can afford these bikes are a privileged few, and many of us have spent 
 YEARS tinkering, switching out racks, switching out bags, saddlebags, 
 Fabio's Chests, Carradice bags, etc. etc. So the fact that so many 
 Rivendell-listers choose to ride with front baskets and bags means that 
 through trial and error, we have decided that it works better for us and 
 it 
 "feels better." NOT saying it IS better, even though I feel just as 
 strongly about front-loading as OP does about rear-loading. But if we all 
 rode the same way, how boring this would all be and how would I be able to 
 pick up cheap niche bike gear at a discounted rate when all you indecisive 
 Riv Riders decide that "PAUL BRAKES ARE OUT AND V-BRAKES ARE IN!!!" or 
 "BROOKS SADDLES ARE OVERRATED. I NEED A BERTHOUD!!!"

 (And babies like riding in front-baskets)


 [image: 0-1.jpg][image: IMG_5539.jpg][image: IMG_7392.jpg]

 On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 

Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Brian Turner]

I think a bike looks and feels incredibly unbalanced with just two big 
stuffed rear panniers. Like many here have stated, the super noodly 
rear-end just isn't desirable. And, if you're carrying so much stuff that 
you're filling two big panniers, why not balance the load a bit more and 
carry some gear up front? Like Samwise Gamgee says, "share the load".

-Brian
Lex KY 

On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 7:54:54 AM UTC-5 Ron Mc wrote:

> If we're comparing front loads, poppers and ribs
>
> [image: wVRl7xH.jpg] [image: 4MaD0iL.jpg]
> [image: hws6znn.jpg] [image: Sn20Bp4.jpg]
>
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 12:15:37 AM UTC-6 kiziria...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Best is both worlds! A 137 up front with either my swift sugarloaf or 
>> shopsack and 1 or 2 panniers in the rear. About all one could ask for with 
>> nearly all day-long commuting or utilitarian purposes. I scored the most 
>> recent version of an Ortlieb Vario off eBay. That has been the ultimate 
>> solution. As much as I despise the hyper-engineered materials and 
>> manufacturing processes, they have come up with a design so good that it 
>> has reduced my resistance to some rides previously (needing a backpack, but 
>> not wanting to carry one, and not wanting to put it awkwardly in a basket, 
>> or another pannier). I've gotten it down to maybe 3-5 seconds to switch 
>> between pannier and backpack. What seals the deal, is that it holds weight 
>> *exceptionally 
>> well* as a backpack and is very comfortable, which I think no other 
>> convertible backpack/panniers previously do very well. I use it every day 
>> and carry significant weight of a mobile office into a co-working space. 
>> Even if I paid full price, the value is very much there for me. 
>>
>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:51:20 PM UTC-8 ack...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and bags 
>>> are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes handle 
>>> with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that comes from 
>>> overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a Costco run or 
>>> carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have tried it 
>>> all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm on a long 
>>> tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift Industries Jr. 
>>> Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue Panda Frame bag 
>>> and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide enough storage space 
>>> for me. 
>>>
>>> It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it suits 
>>> his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some of the 
>>> replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that there 
>>> is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal. That's why 
>>> we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the bike style and 
>>> set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand rear-weight, simply 
>>> because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails on a chalkboard to me. 
>>> I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front loads, I just find it more 
>>> pleasing to look at. 
>>>
>>> Final point: I don't think that The Everyman rides Rivendells. Folks who 
>>> can afford these bikes are a privileged few, and many of us have spent 
>>> YEARS tinkering, switching out racks, switching out bags, saddlebags, 
>>> Fabio's Chests, Carradice bags, etc. etc. So the fact that so many 
>>> Rivendell-listers choose to ride with front baskets and bags means that 
>>> through trial and error, we have decided that it works better for us and it 
>>> "feels better." NOT saying it IS better, even though I feel just as 
>>> strongly about front-loading as OP does about rear-loading. But if we all 
>>> rode the same way, how boring this would all be and how would I be able to 
>>> pick up cheap niche bike gear at a discounted rate when all you indecisive 
>>> Riv Riders decide that "PAUL BRAKES ARE OUT AND V-BRAKES ARE IN!!!" or 
>>> "BROOKS SADDLES ARE OVERRATED. I NEED A BERTHOUD!!!"
>>>
>>> (And babies like riding in front-baskets)
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: 0-1.jpg][image: IMG_5539.jpg][image: IMG_7392.jpg]
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:
>>>
 I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and 
 dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily 
 bag 
 to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier 
 to 
 pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get 
 hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont 
 really 
 mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was different maybe 
 id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at least a small 
 basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it looks too.

 

Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[m f]

I like using the front for my gear because it just seems a bit easier to 
mount/dismount the bike in that configuration. Rear panniers have a time 
and place, but just not for 99% of my riding.

Hey acksf78...Tell me you're on Instagram without telling me :) 
*I have tried it all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again 
unless I'm on a long tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, 
Swift Industries Jr. Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, 
Rogue Panda Frame bag and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't 
provide enough storage space for me*



On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 6:54:54 AM UTC-6 Ron Mc wrote:

> If we're comparing front loads, poppers and ribs
>
> [image: wVRl7xH.jpg] [image: 4MaD0iL.jpg]
> [image: hws6znn.jpg] [image: Sn20Bp4.jpg]
>
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 12:15:37 AM UTC-6 kiziria...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Best is both worlds! A 137 up front with either my swift sugarloaf or 
>> shopsack and 1 or 2 panniers in the rear. About all one could ask for with 
>> nearly all day-long commuting or utilitarian purposes. I scored the most 
>> recent version of an Ortlieb Vario off eBay. That has been the ultimate 
>> solution. As much as I despise the hyper-engineered materials and 
>> manufacturing processes, they have come up with a design so good that it 
>> has reduced my resistance to some rides previously (needing a backpack, but 
>> not wanting to carry one, and not wanting to put it awkwardly in a basket, 
>> or another pannier). I've gotten it down to maybe 3-5 seconds to switch 
>> between pannier and backpack. What seals the deal, is that it holds weight 
>> *exceptionally 
>> well* as a backpack and is very comfortable, which I think no other 
>> convertible backpack/panniers previously do very well. I use it every day 
>> and carry significant weight of a mobile office into a co-working space. 
>> Even if I paid full price, the value is very much there for me. 
>>
>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:51:20 PM UTC-8 ack...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and bags 
>>> are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes handle 
>>> with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that comes from 
>>> overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a Costco run or 
>>> carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have tried it 
>>> all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm on a long 
>>> tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift Industries Jr. 
>>> Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue Panda Frame bag 
>>> and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide enough storage space 
>>> for me. 
>>>
>>> It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it suits 
>>> his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some of the 
>>> replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that there 
>>> is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal. That's why 
>>> we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the bike style and 
>>> set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand rear-weight, simply 
>>> because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails on a chalkboard to me. 
>>> I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front loads, I just find it more 
>>> pleasing to look at. 
>>>
>>> Final point: I don't think that The Everyman rides Rivendells. Folks who 
>>> can afford these bikes are a privileged few, and many of us have spent 
>>> YEARS tinkering, switching out racks, switching out bags, saddlebags, 
>>> Fabio's Chests, Carradice bags, etc. etc. So the fact that so many 
>>> Rivendell-listers choose to ride with front baskets and bags means that 
>>> through trial and error, we have decided that it works better for us and it 
>>> "feels better." NOT saying it IS better, even though I feel just as 
>>> strongly about front-loading as OP does about rear-loading. But if we all 
>>> rode the same way, how boring this would all be and how would I be able to 
>>> pick up cheap niche bike gear at a discounted rate when all you indecisive 
>>> Riv Riders decide that "PAUL BRAKES ARE OUT AND V-BRAKES ARE IN!!!" or 
>>> "BROOKS SADDLES ARE OVERRATED. I NEED A BERTHOUD!!!"
>>>
>>> (And babies like riding in front-baskets)
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: 0-1.jpg][image: IMG_5539.jpg][image: IMG_7392.jpg]
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:
>>>
 I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and 
 dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily 
 bag 
 to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier 
 to 
 pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get 
 hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont 
 really 
 mind that much for 

Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Armand Kizirian]

Best is both worlds! A 137 up front with either my swift sugarloaf or 
shopsack and 1 or 2 panniers in the rear. About all one could ask for with 
nearly all day-long commuting or utilitarian purposes. I scored the most 
recent version of an Ortlieb Vario off eBay. That has been the ultimate 
solution. As much as I despise the hyper-engineered materials and 
manufacturing processes, they have come up with a design so good that it 
has reduced my resistance to some rides previously (needing a backpack, but 
not wanting to carry one, and not wanting to put it awkwardly in a basket, 
or another pannier). I've gotten it down to maybe 3-5 seconds to switch 
between pannier and backpack. What seals the deal, is that it holds weight 
*exceptionally 
well* as a backpack and is very comfortable, which I think no other 
convertible backpack/panniers previously do very well. I use it every day 
and carry significant weight of a mobile office into a co-working space. 
Even if I paid full price, the value is very much there for me. 

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:51:20 PM UTC-8 ack...@gmail.com wrote:

> There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and bags 
> are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes handle 
> with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that comes from 
> overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a Costco run or 
> carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have tried it 
> all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm on a long 
> tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift Industries Jr. 
> Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue Panda Frame bag 
> and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide enough storage space 
> for me. 
>
> It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it suits 
> his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some of the 
> replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that there 
> is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal. That's why 
> we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the bike style and 
> set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand rear-weight, simply 
> because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails on a chalkboard to me. 
> I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front loads, I just find it more 
> pleasing to look at. 
>
> Final point: I don't think that The Everyman rides Rivendells. Folks who 
> can afford these bikes are a privileged few, and many of us have spent 
> YEARS tinkering, switching out racks, switching out bags, saddlebags, 
> Fabio's Chests, Carradice bags, etc. etc. So the fact that so many 
> Rivendell-listers choose to ride with front baskets and bags means that 
> through trial and error, we have decided that it works better for us and it 
> "feels better." NOT saying it IS better, even though I feel just as 
> strongly about front-loading as OP does about rear-loading. But if we all 
> rode the same way, how boring this would all be and how would I be able to 
> pick up cheap niche bike gear at a discounted rate when all you indecisive 
> Riv Riders decide that "PAUL BRAKES ARE OUT AND V-BRAKES ARE IN!!!" or 
> "BROOKS SADDLES ARE OVERRATED. I NEED A BERTHOUD!!!"
>
> (And babies like riding in front-baskets)
>
>
> [image: 0-1.jpg][image: IMG_5539.jpg][image: IMG_7392.jpg]
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:
>
>> I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and 
>> dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily bag 
>> to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier to 
>> pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get 
>> hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont really 
>> mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was different maybe 
>> id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at least a small 
>> basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it looks too.
>>
>> -stephen
>>
>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:47:17 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the 
>>> bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of 
>>> riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads 
>>> biased toward the rear and not the front.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:18 PM ian m  wrote:
>>>
 I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag than 
 into a baske
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Brenton Eastman]

If you ever want to bike-pack and go somewhere remote or accessible via 
single track, having your luggage up in a basket, frame bag, saddlebag, 
avoids the risk of catching a pannier (or both) on roots, branches, downed 
trees cut just wide enough for passage, etc.

I learned this the hard way on my first bicycle overnighter. My old bikes' 
panniers made it really hard to get to our campsite on the bike. I think 
panniers make sense, and they will come back into "trend" soon. 

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 6:19:53 PM UTC-8 Neale S. wrote:

> One reason to put some weight on the front of the bike is that all of your 
> (body) weight is mostly on the rear already.
> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:
>
>> I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and 
>> dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily bag 
>> to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier to 
>> pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get 
>> hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont really 
>> mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was different maybe 
>> id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at least a small 
>> basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it looks too.
>>
>> -stephen
>>
>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:47:17 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the 
>>> bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of 
>>> riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads 
>>> biased toward the rear and not the front.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:18 PM ian m  wrote:
>>>
 I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag than 
 into a baske
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Neale S.]

One reason to put some weight on the front of the bike is that all of your 
(body) weight is mostly on the rear already.
On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:

> I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and 
> dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily bag 
> to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier to 
> pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get 
> hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont really 
> mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was different maybe 
> id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at least a small 
> basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it looks too.
>
> -stephen
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:47:17 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the 
>> bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of 
>> riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads 
>> biased toward the rear and not the front.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:18 PM ian m  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag than 
>>> into a baske
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Stephen]

I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and 
dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily bag 
to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier to 
pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get 
hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont really 
mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was different maybe 
id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at least a small 
basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it looks too.

-stephen

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 7:47:17 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the 
> bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of 
> riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads 
> biased toward the rear and not the front.
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:18 PM ian m  wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag than 
>> into a baske
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Patrick Moore]

IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the
bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of
riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads
biased toward the rear and not the front.

On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 5:18 PM ian m  wrote:

> I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag than
> into a baske

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[ian m]

I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag than 
into a basket, but to each their own. My perspective probably comes from 
living in the Bay Area where I refused to leave anything attached to my 
bike that didn't look like a part of the bike or was easily removable, far 
less likely someone is going to steal a basket than a bag. Also not gonna 
catch me walking into a building lugging a couple panniers or awkwardly 
carrying a saddlebag. I did for a time run a Freight Baggage bag that 
secured really well to a porteur rack and had backpack straps to carry 
off-bike, but overall it was kind of the worst of both worlds. I now use a 
leather tote-ish bag designed for a small wald basket I purchased from 
Treetop goods off this list some years ago, it's pretty much perfect for 
daily use whether commuting or out for a ride. Really can't see how I would 
be getting more with a different setup

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 6:42:11 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I used to put my work kit into a shoulder bag and put that bag into my 
> Carradice Camper Longflap; I still don't understand the advantages of a big 
> front basket except that you don't need to undo and re-do straps.
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 4:31 PM ian m  wrote:
>
>> Short and sweet answer: I can put a bag in my basket and take it with me 
>> when I'm off the bike. 
>>
>> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:18:59 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear 
>>> saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has 
>>> perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv 
>>> saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns 
>>> and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so 
>>> saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and 
>>> it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main 
>>> reason I got it) than the Junior.
>>>
>>> I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted 
>>> baskets and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and 
>>> I've tried huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front, 
>>> at least on medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable, 
>>> quick-cornering handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't 
>>> handle as I liked ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either 
>>> sizable rear or front loads.
>>>
>>> But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting 
>>> -- I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so 
>>> much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in 
>>> thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1 
>>> old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH 
>>> Riv Road clone).
>>>
>>> I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be 
>>> able to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced 
>>> that very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, 
>>> low-trail fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on 
>>> non-low-trail Rivendells?
>>>
>>> 49 lb:
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> Longboard:
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5b71f2d6-4790-46a7-8e88-cc08ecc242e1n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
> ---
>
> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing 
> services
>
>
> ---
>
> *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*
>
> *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*
>
> *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Patrick Moore]

I used to put my work kit into a shoulder bag and put that bag into my
Carradice Camper Longflap; I still don't understand the advantages of a big
front basket except that you don't need to undo and re-do straps.

On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 4:31 PM ian m  wrote:

> Short and sweet answer: I can put a bag in my basket and take it with me
> when I'm off the bike.
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:18:59 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear
>> saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has
>> perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv
>> saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns
>> and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so
>> saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and
>> it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main
>> reason I got it) than the Junior.
>>
>> I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted
>> baskets and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and
>> I've tried huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front,
>> at least on medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable,
>> quick-cornering handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't
>> handle as I liked ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either
>> sizable rear or front loads.
>>
>> But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting --
>> I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so
>> much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in
>> thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1
>> old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH
>> Riv Road clone).
>>
>> I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be able
>> to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced that
>> very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, low-trail
>> fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on
>> non-low-trail Rivendells?
>>
>> 49 lb:
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> Longboard:
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> 
> .
>


-- 

Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
---

Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing
services

---

*When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*

*But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*

*I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*

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[RBW] Re: Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[ian m]

Short and sweet answer: I can put a bag in my basket and take it with me 
when I'm off the bike. 

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:18:59 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear 
> saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has 
> perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv 
> saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns 
> and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so 
> saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and 
> it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main 
> reason I got it) than the Junior.
>
> I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted baskets 
> and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and I've tried 
> huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front, at least on 
> medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable, quick-cornering 
> handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't handle as I liked 
> ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either sizable rear or front 
> loads.
>
> But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting -- 
> I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so 
> much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in 
> thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1 
> old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH 
> Riv Road clone).
>
> I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be able 
> to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced that 
> very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, low-trail 
> fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on 
> non-low-trail Rivendells?
>
> 49 lb:
> [image: image.png]
>
> Longboard:
> [image: image.png]
>
>

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