Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
Colleagues: Interesting that this topic comes up at this time: 1. We inherited a grid-tie project wherein an elderly client was sold an SW installation some years ago. Come to find out, the installer never filed anything with the utility. The client was caught recently back-feeding without permission by a meter reader and told to cease and desist. We filed an application with the utility thinking this was a long shot since the client's SW inverter did not have the requisite Grid-tie Interface (GTI). We have several GTIs sitting on the shelf, but the inverter does not have the proper interface so one could not be installed. Lo and behold, the utility approved this installation for interconnection. 2. We have an application to the local utility (PGE) pending for a three XW installation with a motor-generator. We have received multiple communications from PGE doubting the acceptability of the XW system for use as a gird-tied battery-back up system. We are hoping that PGE accepts the listings from the various agencies and approves the project. Interesting that the old, non-complaint system receives swift approval but the latest and greatest gear hits a regulatory road block! We'll keep you posted. William Miller At 04:56 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote: What year are the SWs? they have had grid inter tie for years, if the inverters were manufactured prior to I think 2001 then you do not need to have the gti box installed. If the guys on a budget why spend the extra ? Its not the most efficient it certainly cheaper. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of robert ellison Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question. On a similar question to what works well together. I am rebuilding the wind side of an old off grid system that the new owner has brought the grid in. He wants to grid tie the system. Another dealer is doing the solar side of things. My thoughts are the 48 volt SW inverters need to go, and replace them with Outback 48 volt grid tie units and have the wind keep the battery up. Am I correct that when the batteries are full from what ever source the outbacks will grid connect and net meter any excess power to the grid? Seems that I remember that they will but almost never get a call for grid tie up here in the sticks so I figured I would ask the knowledge base. I would suggest he keep the SW inverters to generator charge in case of a long power outage as last I knew the Outbacks (FX) did not care for generator power. I could probably research it but the list is faster and probably more accurate that reading all the manuals with all my free time these days! Needless to say the fellow in on a budrgt and the power company brought the power into the main building not the power house. Can't make things easy.. Thanks, Bob 2009/3/23 mailto:i...@aol.comi...@aol.com Wrenches, I have been doing some experimenting --testing compatibility between brands of grid tie inverters and sign wave battery type inverters. I am hoping some of you also have some experience here and we can compare results. My interest is fueled by my belief that AC coupling is the ideal way to increase system capacity for battery based off grid systems. The primary benefit is higher system efficiency for AC loads used during the day. I realize that power management becomes important but my interest right now is just to find out who talks to who. My ultimate power management tool will be an electric vehicle. Charging it will undoubtedly suck up available juice. So far: SMA synchronizes to Xantrex SW (have not tested the XW yet) and Outback and of course the SMA Sunny Island Xantrex GT also syncs to the SW I started this project with Enphase as my first choice since their system is so scaleable. I have been unable to make Enphase sync. Marv at Enphase has been very helpful but to date no results. I have, at Marv's suggestion ,used capacitors to clean the somewhat hashy SW output without results. Marv tells me he is testing Enphase and Outback. Does anyone have experience syncing Enphase to other offgrid inverters? Any experiences with Fronius and others.? Though the SW output is not the cleanest, the results with SB and GT are very stable. They hookup early AM and its steady green light all day long. Though I use microwave, start induction motors etc, and my scope clearly shows lots of spikes during these events, the GT and SB hang in. What are the experiences from others regarding mix and match?. Interoperability among brands seems to be a very desirable goal to this wrench. Don Loweburg Offline Solar, Inc ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings:
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
Sad to say but isn't this the industry norm we will have it next month. I believe that a HV CC has been in the works for well over 3 years.Welcome to the world of ever changing solarkinda like molasses in the winter time. we have at least 3 scenarios currently which could benefit from the higher voltage configuration Don't we all. by the time we might see a HV CC,AC coupling will be the norm they will no longer be necessary! -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal Khalsa Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V It is my understanding in our pursuit of the apollo high voltage controller that they have scrapped plans to release thatthey said other products in development have now taken precedence. It is also my understanding that MIdnite Solar is still actively developing their high voltage controller with a potential release this summer.I have my fingers crossed.we have at least 3 scenarios currently which could benefit from the higher voltage configuration Cheers, -- Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o 2009/3/25 Carl Emerson freepo...@freepower.co.nz Peter, Thanks for that, we could sure do with one. Carl E _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: 26 March 2009 2:05 a.m. To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Yes, as far as I know. Apollo is supposed to have one in beta evaluation but we haven't been able to obtain satisfactory information from them how product evaluation is taking place and when the unit will be available as a product. We had an application for which we wanted to use this new product and gave up on them and their product. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Emerson Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 5:20 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Hi there, Can someone confirm that there is still no MPPT regulators available capable of accepting array voltages greater than 150. Thanks, Carl Emerson Free Power Ltd. Auckland NZ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
Midnites Classic CC is close they are beta testing there high voltage unit. I am actually beta testing there standard voltage unit. boB is working very hard on these and i suspect we will see them soon. There is a long list of features packed into this little unit. I will let boB or Robin fill in all the blanks but we should be going live with all the beta sites on the net soon. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
Morning William, regarding 1-- Don't know what your net-metering application form requires, but in VA the installing company has to certify/ sign off on the equipment meeting 1741. Years ago, after y2k, we had a Co-op so eager to show their support for net metering, that their people , after inspecting the system and testing the loss off grid transfer function by pulling the meter, signed the forms themselves. As for 2, from our experience with the local IOU, be careful when mentioning a motor-driven generator. They don't understand that the XW can't sell that power--directly-- to the grid. Since the cat is out of the bag, I think you'll need to show that the gen set only charges the battery and passes thru the XW to the dedicated loads. May be simpler not to mention generator? Ken - Original Message - From: William Miller To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:12 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question. Colleagues: Interesting that this topic comes up at this time: 1. We inherited a grid-tie project wherein an elderly client was sold an SW installation some years ago. Come to find out, the installer never filed anything with the utility. The client was caught recently back-feeding without permission by a meter reader and told to cease and desist. We filed an application with the utility thinking this was a long shot since the client's SW inverter did not have the requisite Grid-tie Interface (GTI). We have several GTIs sitting on the shelf, but the inverter does not have the proper interface so one could not be installed. Lo and behold, the utility approved this installation for interconnection. 2. We have an application to the local utility (PGE) pending for a three XW installation with a motor-generator. We have received multiple communications from PGE doubting the acceptability of the XW system for use as a gird-tied battery-back up system. We are hoping that PGE accepts the listings from the various agencies and approves the project. Interesting that the old, non-complaint system receives swift approval but the latest and greatest gear hits a regulatory road block! We'll keep you posted. William Miller At 04:56 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote: What year are the SWs? they have had grid inter tie for years, if the inverters were manufactured prior to I think 2001 then you do not need to have the gti box installed. If the guys on a budget why spend the extra ? Its not the most efficient it certainly cheaper. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of robert ellison Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question. On a similar question to what works well together. I am rebuilding the wind side of an old off grid system that the new owner has brought the grid in. He wants to grid tie the system. Another dealer is doing the solar side of things. My thoughts are the 48 volt SW inverters need to go, and replace them with Outback 48 volt grid tie units and have the wind keep the battery up. Am I correct that when the batteries are full from what ever source the outbacks will grid connect and net meter any excess power to the grid? Seems that I remember that they will but almost never get a call for grid tie up here in the sticks so I figured I would ask the knowledge base. I would suggest he keep the SW inverters to generator charge in case of a long power outage as last I knew the Outbacks (FX) did not care for generator power. I could probably research it but the list is faster and probably more accurate that reading all the manuals with all my free time these days! Needless to say the fellow in on a budrgt and the power company brought the power into the main building not the power house. Can't make things easy.. Thanks, Bob 2009/3/23 i...@aol.com Wrenches, I have been doing some experimenting --testing compatibility between brands of grid tie inverters and sign wave battery type inverters. I am hoping some of you also have some experience here and we can compare results. My interest is fueled by my belief that AC coupling is the ideal way to increase system capacity for battery based off grid systems. The primary benefit is higher system efficiency for AC loads used during the day. I realize that power management becomes important but my interest right now is just to find out who talks to who. My ultimate power management tool will be an electric vehicle. Charging it will undoubtedly suck up available juice. So far: SMA synchronizes to Xantrex SW (have not tested the XW yet) and Outback and of course the SMA Sunny Island Xantrex GT also syncs to the SW
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
Zzzz We've been waiting for a HI voltage CC! A standard unit? Yeah and. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of r...@solar4maine.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:46 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Midnites Classic CC is close they are beta testing there high voltage unit. I am actually beta testing there standard voltage unit. boB is working very hard on these and i suspect we will see them soon. There is a long list of features packed into this little unit. I will let boB or Robin fill in all the blanks but we should be going live with all the beta sites on the net soon. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solyndra
Hi Keith- check the archives... there was some chatter on this a few months back, and the biggest concern was their racking system and wrench concerns about what a nice kite it could make. Other than that I echo Bill's concerns about longevity. This type of innovation is part of what makes us (eventually) better... but at the same time it creates confusion among the customer-base (why go solar now when there is a better/cheaper solution around the corner). If hear here one more ...but what about nano-solar? I heard I can just paint it on my roof... I will pop a breaker! For a brighter energy future, Geoff Greenfield President Third Sun Solar Wind Power Ltd. 340 West State Street, Unit 25 Athens, OH 45701 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 www.Third-Sun.com Clean Energy - Expertly Installed - Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: Keith, Since it seems quite quiet on this subject, I have to ask why a SHARP guy like you would consider such a rounded or Solindrical technology. Actually, I have heard through the grape vine that their products have an interesting performance characteristic in that their output looks similar to a single-axis tracker—which makes sense—sounds good. The must larger issue than the short-term performance of the product is the longevity. Nobody has a clue on that item—not even the manufacturer. I’m sure they have put it through torture tests, but the real world is a different story. Not sure they have seen the sun for more than a few years. I hope it works out for them and it becomes a viable part of the PV industry. I, for one, will be cheering from the sidelines. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:05 PM To: RE-Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solyndra http://www.solyndra.com/ Anyone have any feedback on these folks and their products? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
The difference is the standard unit will have some features the other available units on the market do not have. Otherwise what is the sense in making one? Can't wait for the Wind mppt unit. Sometimes we forget how far boB's designs have brought us. I was at one of my original MX-60 installs the other day and the owner had to remind me the voltage limit on the original units was 96 volts not 150 volts. Bob On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Tump t...@hughes.net wrote: Zzzz We've been waiting for a HI voltage CC! A standard unit? Yeah and. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of r...@solar4maine.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:46 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Midnites Classic CC is close they are beta testing there high voltage unit. I am actually beta testing there standard voltage unit. boB is working very hard on these and i suspect we will see them soon. There is a long list of features packed into this little unit. I will let boB or Robin fill in all the blanks but we should be going live with all the beta sites on the net soon. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Whisper manual needed
Does anyone have a manual for a Whisper 1500 HVLV windmill. Eliot's design, not an SWWP design. I can find all my manuals but that one. If it is downloadable that works also. Need the rewire info to test the clipper when it gets here. Thanks, Bob ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
The SW's are real early in the process and we doubt the 65% or so efficiency makes sense especially with the battery losses in the process. The other dealer told me the GTI's were not available anyway, but I haven't checked. He was looking for the interface relay when I came into this process. When I get down there I will check the date. it is 3 hours from here. Thanks, Bob On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Tump t...@hughes.net wrote: What year are the SWs? they have had grid inter tie for years, if the inverters were manufactured prior to I think 2001 then you do not need to have the gti box installed. If the guys on a budget why spend the extra ? Its not the most efficient it certainly cheaper. -Original Message- *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *robert ellison *Sent:* Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:39 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question. On a similar question to what works well together. I am rebuilding the wind side of an old off grid system that the new owner has brought the grid in. He wants to grid tie the system. Another dealer is doing the solar side of things. My thoughts are the 48 volt SW inverters need to go, and replace them with Outback 48 volt grid tie units and have the wind keep the battery up. Am I correct that when the batteries are full from what ever source the outbacks will grid connect and net meter any excess power to the grid? Seems that I remember that they will but almost never get a call for grid tie up here in the sticks so I figured I would ask the knowledge base. I would suggest he keep the SW inverters to generator charge in case of a long power outage as last I knew the Outbacks (FX) did not care for generator power. I could probably research it but the list is faster and probably more accurate that reading all the manuals with all my free time these days! Needless to say the fellow in on a budrgt and the power company brought the power into the main building not the power house. Can't make things easy.. Thanks, Bob 2009/3/23 i...@aol.com Wrenches, I have been doing some experimenting --testing compatibility between brands of grid tie inverters and sign wave battery type inverters. I am hoping some of you also have some experience here and we can compare results. My interest is fueled by my belief that AC coupling is the ideal way to increase system capacity for battery based off grid systems. The primary benefit is higher system efficiency for AC loads used during the day. I realize that power management becomes important but my interest right now is just to find out who talks to who. My ultimate power management tool will be an electric vehicle. Charging it will undoubtedly suck up available juice. So far: SMA synchronizes to Xantrex SW (have not tested the XW yet) and Outback and of course the SMA Sunny Island Xantrex GT also syncs to the SW I started this project with Enphase as my first choice since their system is so scaleable. I have been unable to make Enphase sync. Marv at Enphase has been very helpful but to date no results. I have, at Marv's suggestion ,used capacitors to clean the somewhat hashy SW output without results. Marv tells me he is testing Enphase and Outback. Does anyone have experience syncing Enphase to other offgrid inverters? Any experiences with Fronius and others.? Though the SW output is not the cleanest, the results with SB and GT are very stable. They hookup early AM and its steady green light all day long. Though I use microwave, start induction motors etc, and my scope clearly shows lots of spikes during these events, the GT and SB hang in. What are the experiences from others regarding mix and match?. Interoperability among brands seems to be a very desirable goal to this wrench. Don Loweburg Offline Solar, Inc -- *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219858252x1201366219/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DMarchfooterNO62 * ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
What kind of money are you geting for SW's on e bay? Don't say green, either.. Thanks, Bob On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:29 PM, r...@solar4maine.com wrote: Another good option is the xantrex XW it has 2 inputs one for the grid and one for the Generator then you can sell the sw's. we have had good succes on ebay selling the sw's. And you are correct the wind or sun or whatever brings the battery voltage to a certain point will trigger the inverter to sell. The XW also will give you 120/240 volts right out of the box so you can back up certain loads like a 240 volt well pump. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
Sorry, list. That was supposed to go to Ryan alone, not all of you. Bob On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:11 AM, robert ellison reelli...@gmail.comwrote: What kind of money are you geting for SW's on e bay? Don't say green, either.. Thanks, Bob On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:29 PM, r...@solar4maine.com wrote: Another good option is the xantrex XW it has 2 inputs one for the grid and one for the Generator then you can sell the sw's. we have had good succes on ebay selling the sw's. And you are correct the wind or sun or whatever brings the battery voltage to a certain point will trigger the inverter to sell. The XW also will give you 120/240 volts right out of the box so you can back up certain loads like a 240 volt well pump. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
That is a good question. What are they worth used? At 09:11 AM 3/26/2009, you wrote: What kind of money are you geting for SW's on e bay? Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 740-448-7328 740-856-9648 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] MTBF
I am working on a residential project that seems perfect for the Enphase product (long array to interconnect point run). Researching the product, I came across one of their website videos (nicely done) claiming an MTBF of 119 years without any explanation as to what that actually means - that is - how did they arrive at that assumption/prediction. I googled mean time between failures. Got this - http://www.ptsdcs.com/whitepapers/57.pdf - a white paper that briefly explains different methods to predict or assume system and or component failures/reliability. Interesting. The conclusion of this white paper: MTBF is a buzz word commonly used in the IT industry. Numbers are thrown around without an understanding of what they truly represent. While MTBF is an indication of reliability, it does not represent the expected service life of the product. Ultimately an MTBF value is meaningless if failure is undefined and assumptions are unrealistic or altogether missing. (emphasis mine). So my question is this: Are any manufacturers that use MTBF as a selling point willing to disclose how these values were obtained? Not picking on EnphaseI will contact them with to ask. IMHO, with the new stuff that will be thrown at us over the coming years, we should expect real numbers from anyone using MTBF to tout their stuff. Stepping off soap box. Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco TX. 76712 254-751-9111 www.holteksolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] MTBF
Holt and All, this is one of those places where this forum can save everyone a lot of grief. When a potentially game-changing product like the Enphase comes out with an obvious Marketing BS statement like 10 years MTBF, we all need to share out experiences with the product. Got failures? How many and how long in service? What geographic area (i.e. hot as in Arizona or cooler as in Wisconsin)? Nothing like sunshine to effect product changes. ya know? Bob-O On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:01 AM, hol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I am working on a residential project that seems perfect for the Enphase product (long array to interconnect point run). Researching the product, I came across one of their website videos (nicely done) claiming an MTBF of 119 years without any explanation as to what that actually means - that is - how did they arrive at that assumption/ prediction. I googled mean time between failures. Got this - http://www.ptsdcs.com/whitepapers/57.pdf - a white paper that briefly explains different methods to predict or assume system and or component failures/reliability. Interesting. The conclusion of this white paper: MTBF is a “buzz word” commonly used in the IT industry. Numbers are thrown around without an understanding of what they truly represent. While MTBF is an indication of reliability, it does not represent the expected service life of the product. Ultimately an MTBF value is meaningless if failure is undefined and assumptions are unrealistic or altogether missing. (emphasis mine). So my question is this: Are any manufacturers that use MTBF as a selling point willing to disclose how these values were obtained? Not picking on EnphaseI will contact them with to ask. IMHO, with the new stuff that will be thrown at us over the coming years, we should expect real numbers from anyone using MTBF to tout their stuff. Stepping off soap box. Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco TX. 76712 254-751-9111 www.holteksolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
Ken: I guess I'm overly optimistic in hoping that electrical engineers could understand these concepts. Next time I'm sending in a modified drawing without the genset. William At 04:47 AM 3/26/2009, you wrote: Morning William, As for 2, from our experience with the local IOU, be careful when mentioning a motor-driven generator. They don't understand that the XW can't sell that power--directly-- to the grid. Since the cat is out of the bag, I think you'll need to show that the gen set only charges the battery and passes thru the XW to the dedicated loads. May be simpler not to mention generator? Ken - Original Message - From: mailto:will...@millersolar.comWilliam Miller To: mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgRE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:12 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question. Colleagues: Interesting that this topic comes up at this time: 1. We inherited a grid-tie project wherein an elderly client was sold an SW installation some years ago. Come to find out, the installer never filed anything with the utility. The client was caught recently back-feeding without permission by a meter reader and told to cease and desist. We filed an application with the utility thinking this was a long shot since the client's SW inverter did not have the requisite Grid-tie Interface (GTI). We have several GTIs sitting on the shelf, but the inverter does not have the proper interface so one could not be installed. Lo and behold, the utility approved this installation for interconnection. 2. We have an application to the local utility (PGE) pending for a three XW installation with a motor-generator. We have received multiple communications from PGE doubting the acceptability of the XW system for use as a gird-tied battery-back up system. We are hoping that PGE accepts the listings from the various agencies and approves the project. Interesting that the old, non-complaint system receives swift approval but the latest and greatest gear hits a regulatory road block! We'll keep you posted. William Miller ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
HI all Apollo Solar is also developing and testing a high voltage charge controller. It is in Beta test, I am a Beta test site. I do not know anything about expected release date, or other such issues. Darryl --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Jennifer Bryce wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com wrote: From: Jennifer Bryce wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 8:32 AM Zzzz? In Midnites defense, I can tell you mine works great! Good products take a long time to make sure that YOU do not end up as the Beta tester. (The most common way for RE gear manufacturers to refine products) It is a double edged sword, we beat the manufactures up for not delivering product. Then stab them if units have problems once released. Just read through the archive. My Beta Classic is rock solid and doing great, it has worked well on my solar arrays and wind turbines for over half a year. No smoke here, it is a real product. On Mar 26, 2009, at 7:06-Mar 26, Tump wrote: Zzzz We've been waiting for a HI voltage CC! A standard unit? Yeah and. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of r...@solar4maine.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:46 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Midnites Classic CC is close they are beta testing there high voltage unit. I am actually beta testing there standard voltage unit. boB is working very hard on these and i suspect we will see them soon. There is a long list of features packed into this little unit. I will let boB or Robin fill in all the blanks but we should be going live with all the beta sites on the net soon. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood RD Belt, MT 59412 406-738-4283 www.pineridgeproducts.com www.chinookturbines.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] MTBF
Oops! Typo. Should have been 100 years MTBF. As if Bob-O On Mar 26, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: Holt and All, this is one of those places where this forum can save everyone a lot of grief. When a potentially game-changing product like the Enphase comes out with an obvious Marketing BS statement like 10 years MTBF, we all need to share out experiences with the product. Got failures? How many and how long in service? What geographic area (i.e. hot as in Arizona or cooler as in Wisconsin)? Nothing like sunshine to effect product changes. ya know? Bob-O ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
Hi Drake We sell the SW used all the time for $1500 Tom Real People Not Buy It Buttons Tom Duffy Systems Design Engineer The Solar Biz HC 61 Box 184 Glenwood, New Mexico 88039 t...@thesolar.biz 575-539-2111 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question. That is a good question. What are they worth used? At 09:11 AM 3/26/2009, you wrote: What kind of money are you geting for SW's on e bay? Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 740-448-7328 740-856-9648 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
Hi William. The SW's own roadblock got removed many years ago. I got PGE to approve SW serial number 00011 (as I recall) for an installation in Arcata in a non-net-billing intertie. This was brand new to them, and as far as I know the only other SWs running in CA were off-grid betas, and one guerrilla. At the time, they wanted the certificate of compliance to prove it would not island, and it required a fair amount of back and forth with Trace engineers. (Now those guys are with other companies we know and love.) I think that eventually, they actually did their own testing on that model in San Ramon. But I thought the CEC listing service was supposed to supercede all that. At least that is what it took for my OutBack inverter to be approved for intertie a few years back. Is the XW not listed with the CEC? BTW, I sold a SW2512 on eBay in '05 for $1,136. There are two SW4024s on eBay right now, no bids yet. William Miller wrote at 11:12 PM 3/25/2009: 2. We have an application to the local utility (PGE) pending for a three XW installation with a motor-generator. We have received multiple communications from PGE doubting the acceptability of the XW system for use as a gird-tied battery-back up system. We are hoping that PGE accepts the listings from the various agencies and approves the project. Interesting that the old, non-complaint system receives swift approval but the latest and greatest gear hits a regulatory road block! We'll keep you posted. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] MTBF
All, Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) is a statistical number that is based on failure rates of components in a piece of equipment, under specific operating conditions. Numerical analysis, with testing and historical data, results in this calculated number. MTBF can be applied to a number of real world mechanisms. For example, the MTBF of most solar modules is on the order of 600 years. The MTBF of an average American 30-something year old male is 900 years. Enphase will shortly be publishing a white paper that explains how MTBF ratings are determined and gives more details about the MTBF rating of our micro-inverter. If you would like, I'll post a notification on this list when the paper is available. See Ya! Marv Enphase Energy 707 763-4784 x7016 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
Sorry, Tump, The SW lost its UL listing for Rev. 4.01 software around 2000. The GTI, used with Rev. 4.10 was relisted for grid-interactive use. At least in our area, GT systems with pre-GTI SW's were allowed to remain in service, as they were grandfathered in. However, no pre-GTI SW can be used in a new GT application. It's not listed for GT operation any more. What you are recommending can only be used by getting away with it if an inspector or utility isn't aware of this history, but it's not legal. Besides, while it's not cost-effective to replace any SW's with more efficient GTFX's, I would not use a SW in a new GT application anyway. They are an early technology and quite inefficient in GT use, due to both the lack of a silent sell topology and their fundamental us of the grid at night to maintain float voltage (thee are related aspects of the same issue). According to posts here on this issue any years ago, te SW is around 55% efficient overall in GT mode, if I recall correctly. Allan at Positive Energy _ From: re-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump What year are the SWs? they have had grid inter tie for years, if the inverters were manufactured prior to I think 2001 then you do not need to have the gti box installed. If the guys on a budget why spend the extra ? Its not the most efficient it certainly cheaper. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches On Behalf Of robert ellison On a similar question to what works well together. I am rebuilding the wind side of an old off grid system that the new owner has brought the grid in. He wants to grid tie the system. Another dealer is doing the solar side of things. My thoughts are the 48 volt SW inverters need to go, and replace them with Outback 48 volt grid tie units and have the wind keep the battery up. Am I correct that when the batteries are full from what ever source the outbacks will grid connect and net meter any excess power to the grid? Seems that I remember that they will but almost never get a call for grid tie up here in the sticks so I figured I would ask the knowledge base. I would suggest he keep the SW inverters to generator charge in case of a long power outage as last I knew the Outbacks (FX) did not care for generator power. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Keeping track of PV equipment failures
Hi All, Bob-O's point about collecting product failure experience is well taken. Something I think we all are concerned about, regardless of brand, technology, etc. Timing is good, too. I just finished putting together a non-scientific survey form to gather info on PV Equipment failures over time. Including roof leaks and structural failures, by the way. (Saw a roofer fixing a PV footing leak in my neighborhood just yesterday as a matter of fact) As of right now there are zero entries. You can be the very first! I plan to start entering my own info over the next few days. I set it to give each submitter the summary of the total dataset when they submit. Don't know what that means really, but thought it sounded nice. Anyone can submit info. No login. It's totally anonymous. Quick simple. You all have experience that qualifies. Please take a minute or so to check it out. http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=enformkey=cGM2ZmZkSDVpVWQ2LVdwZ WtwQ0U5SkE6MA http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=enformkey=cGM2ZmZkSDVpVWQ2LVdwZW twQ0U5SkE6MA.. TinyURL:http://tinyurl.com/djese2 http://tinyurl.com/djese2 Bookmark it to keep it handy for easy future access. Please come back and use it whenever something comes up. Pass it along to anybody who might be able to use it. Info from the form goes into a spreadsheet which tracks the input. I purposely haven't made the spreadsheet results public yet because I want to watch for abuse. I hope that enough decent info is collected that I can open up the results to everyone. If it looks like that is the trend, I'll have the spreadsheet auto-publish to a webpage and send the link to the Wrench list. I don't know exactly what will end up happening with this, but I promise it will be put to good and ETHICAL use. This is intended to collect personal experience only. No rumors or gossip please! If you heard such and such from somebody, please send the somebody this link: http://tinyurl.com/djese2 http://tinyurl.com/djese2 You can report a single type of failure across multiple sites on a single form (like a lot of module or inverter failures for instance). Please submit info for different types of failures on separate forms. You can submit extra info via email to the email address on the form. If you submit additional info via email, please include a note about the failure you submitted on the form since I won't know who submitted what on the forms. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out a reasonable way to setup a similar form for praising good performance based on specific experience. I am playing with a couple different versions because I think it's important to accentuate the positive. Will let you all know if and when I come up with something... Thanks for participating and Pray for Sun! Matt Lafferty SolarJanitor mailto:solarjani...@gmail.com PS - If anybody want me to email them the form directly, embedded in an email, let me know off-list. Also, if any of you with websites wanted to embed the form there, let me know off-list. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
Midnite solar has 2 beta units rated for 250 volt running out there. One is running on 12 kc130's in series and the other is running 10 solar world 24 volt panels 5 in series so 2 strings of 5. They will be installing a 250 volt unit on a wind turbine this weekend. They have a bunch of the 150 volt units around as well i have 2 here one on solar and one on wind. They do work and work well the wind controller will be a great thing. I have a 10 ft hugh piggot style turbine rated for 800 watts and i have seen 2500 watts from it. Robin and boB and crew are working very hard on these units and things are coming together quick. I am sure boB or Robin will chime in soon___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Battery impedance analyzers
Hello Wrenches, Is anyone using an impedance type battery analyzer for lead acid batteries? If so, what do you have and how has it worked out. I have seen prices from $200 to $7500 and I'm sure there is a world of difference. I have been using a pulser circuit I built about 4 years ago to restore nearly dead AGM batteries but I have not had any sophisticated method of verifying before and after performance. I perform a constant current equalization with no voltage limit and then leave the battery on the pulser for a few weeks. This works great and I have restored and sold a few used AGM batteries that would have gone to the recycler. Today our battery buyer just picked up another 15,400 lb. of batteries from us. Yep, they were mostly murdered! I would like to be able to restore more of them. Kindest Regards, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar (928) 941-1660 Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation Mailing Address (NO SHIPPING): 11881 S Fortuna Rd. #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Shipping and retail store (NO MAIL): 2998 Shari Ave Yuma, AZ 85365 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
I certainly am aware of the things both bob robin, mary crew have made in the industry. THANK YOU MIDNITE! I too am glad that they have some working units out there. I have voiced my frustrations to the Midnite folks knowing robin mary personally I'm certain that my comments will not be taken as insulting. Still I/we've been waiting a long time. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Bryce Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Zzzz? In Midnites defense, I can tell you mine works great! Good products take a long time to make sure that YOU do not end up as the Beta tester. (The most common way for RE gear manufacturers to refine products) It is a double edged sword, we beat the manufactures up for not delivering product. Then stab them if units have problems once released. Just read through the archive. My Beta Classic is rock solid and doing great, it has worked well on my solar arrays and wind turbines for over half a year. No smoke here, it is a real product. On Mar 26, 2009, at 7:06-Mar 26, Tump wrote: Zzzz We've been waiting for a HI voltage CC! A standard unit? Yeah and. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of r...@solar4maine.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:46 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Midnites Classic CC is close they are beta testing there high voltage unit. I am actually beta testing there standard voltage unit. boB is working very hard on these and i suspect we will see them soon. There is a long list of features packed into this little unit. I will let boB or Robin fill in all the blanks but we should be going live with all the beta sites on the net soon. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood RD Belt, MT 59412 406-738-4283 www.pineridgeproducts.com www.chinookturbines.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
nothing to be sorry about .I was NOT suggesting DOING anything illegal. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:28 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question. Sorry, Tump, The SW lost its UL listing for Rev. 4.01 software around 2000. The GTI, used with Rev. 4.10 was relisted for grid-interactive use. At least in our area, GT systems with pre-GTI SW's were allowed to remain in service, as they were grandfathered in. However, no pre-GTI SW can be used in a new GT application. It's not listed for GT operation any more. What you are recommending can only be used by getting away with it if an inspector or utility isn't aware of this history, but it's not legal. Besides, while it's not cost-effective to replace any SW's with more efficient GTFX's, I would not use a SW in a new GT application anyway. They are an early technology and quite inefficient in GT use, due to both the lack of a silent sell topology and their fundamental us of the grid at night to maintain float voltage (thee are related aspects of the same issue). According to posts here on this issue any years ago, te SW is around 55% efficient overall in GT mode, if I recall correctly. Allan at Positive Energy _ From: re-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump What year are the SWs? they have had grid inter tie for years, if the inverters were manufactured prior to I think 2001 then you do not need to have the gti box installed. If the guys on a budget why spend the extra ? Its not the most efficient it certainly cheaper. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches On Behalf Of robert ellison On a similar question to what works well together. I am rebuilding the wind side of an old off grid system that the new owner has brought the grid in. He wants to grid tie the system. Another dealer is doing the solar side of things. My thoughts are the 48 volt SW inverters need to go, and replace them with Outback 48 volt grid tie units and have the wind keep the battery up. Am I correct that when the batteries are full from what ever source the outbacks will grid connect and net meter any excess power to the grid? Seems that I remember that they will but almost never get a call for grid tie up here in the sticks so I figured I would ask the knowledge base. I would suggest he keep the SW inverters to generator charge in case of a long power outage as last I knew the Outbacks (FX) did not care for generator power. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based grid tie question.
Michael: The SW inverters were first approved for grid-tie as originally designed. Then the CEC pulled the listing because re-testing revealed some borderline results. It was rumored that the only competing grid-tie company at the time blew the whistle. It was a big deal at the time with many SW projects in the pipeline. Xantrex scrambled to remedy the situation and created the GTI. Many SW inverters were removed from walls and sent to Arlington to be refitted for GTI interfaces. An internal board was changed and the outboard interface provided. The CSI home page has a photo of an SW inverter with a GTI: http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/erprebate/equipment.html The list of eligible equipment says right on it, with GTI. So one theoretically should not be able to obtain a utility agreement without a GTI, but we received one about two weeks ago. go figure. Please, wrenches, keep this under your hats. William Miller At 09:47 AM 3/26/2009, you wrote: Hi William. The SW's own roadblock got removed many years ago. I got PGE to approve SW serial number 00011 (as I recall) for an installation in Arcata in a non-net-billing intertie. This was brand new to them, and as far as I know the only other SWs running in CA were off-grid betas, and one guerrilla. At the time, they wanted the certificate of compliance to prove it would not island, and it required a fair amount of back and forth with Trace engineers. (Now those guys are with other companies we know and love.) I think that eventually, they actually did their own testing on that model in San Ramon. But I thought the CEC listing service was supposed to supercede all that. At least that is what it took for my OutBack inverter to be approved for intertie a few years back. Is the XW not listed with the CEC? BTW, I sold a SW2512 on eBay in '05 for $1,136. There are two SW4024s on eBay right now, no bids yet. William Miller wrote at 11:12 PM 3/25/2009: 2. We have an application to the local utility (PGE) pending for a three XW installation with a motor-generator. We have received multiple communications from PGE doubting the acceptability of the XW system for use as a gird-tied battery-back up system. We are hoping that PGE accepts the listings from the various agencies and approves the project. Interesting that the old, non-complaint system receives swift approval but the latest and greatest gear hits a regulatory road block! We'll keep you posted. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
I am waiting to receive a beta model from Apollo Solar and will be putting 10 AP-120 modules in series on it. The Beta testing will be easy with full internet interface standard with the controller, Apollo will be able to monitor it with no work on my part. Daryl Midnite solar has 2 beta units rated for 250 volt running out there. One is running on 12 kc130's in series and the other is running 10 solar world 24 volt panels 5 in series so 2 strings of 5. They will be installing a 250 volt unit on a wind turbine this weekend. They have a bunch of the 150 volt units around as well i have 2 here one on solar and one on wind. They do work and work well the wind controller will be a great thing. I have a 10 ft hugh piggot style turbine rated for 800 watts and i have seen 2500 watts from it. Robin and boB and crew are working very hard on these units and things are coming together quick. I am sure boB or Robin will chime in soon___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
Bob? RU there??? Matt r...@solar4maine.com wrote: Midnite solar has 2 beta units rated for 250 volt running out there. One is running on 12 kc130's in series and the other is running 10 solar world 24 volt panels 5 in series so 2 strings of 5. They will be installing a 250 volt unit on a wind turbine this weekend. They have a bunch of the 150 volt units around as well i have 2 here one on solar and one on wind. They do work and work well the wind controller will be a great thing. I have a 10 ft hugh piggot style turbine rated for 800 watts and i have seen 2500 watts from it. Robin and boB and crew are working very hard on these units and things are coming together quick. I am sure boB or Robin will chime in soon ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.283 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2023 - Release Date: 03/25/09 18:54:00 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
Per the posts Midnight solar and Apollo Solar are both in beta testing. Has anyone heard Outback must be also? Is Outback going to announce a HVCC this spring? --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Tump t...@hughes.net wrote: From: Tump t...@hughes.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 8:01 PM I certainly am aware of the things both bob robin, mary crew have made in the industry. THANK YOU MIDNITE! I too am glad that they have some working units out there. I have voiced my frustrations to the Midnite folks knowing robin mary personally I'm certain that my comments will not be taken as insulting. Still I/we've been waiting a long time. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Bryce Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Zzzz? In Midnites defense, I can tell you mine works great! Good products take a long time to make sure that YOU do not end up as the Beta tester. (The most common way for RE gear manufacturers to refine products) It is a double edged sword, we beat the manufactures up for not delivering product. Then stab them if units have problems once released. Just read through the archive. My Beta Classic is rock solid and doing great, it has worked well on my solar arrays and wind turbines for over half a year. No smoke here, it is a real product. On Mar 26, 2009, at 7:06-Mar 26, Tump wrote: Zzzz We've been waiting for a HI voltage CC! A standard unit? Yeah and. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of r...@solar4maine.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:46 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Midnites Classic CC is close they are beta testing there high voltage unit. I am actually beta testing there standard voltage unit. boB is working very hard on these and i suspect we will see them soon. There is a long list of features packed into this little unit. I will let boB or Robin fill in all the blanks but we should be going live with all the beta sites on the net soon. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood RD Belt, MT 59412 406-738-4283 www.pineridgeproducts.com www.chinookturbines.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Odd Outback FNDC/Mate issue
Hi All, Caution: this is a longish tale about a problem with Outback's FNDC monitor, as well as a request for any other related stories. Sorry for the long post - sharing this here is somewhat therapeutic for me, so if you want to cut to the chase, it is toward the bottom: About a year ago I installed my second or third FNDC meter into a single off grid VFX3524 OB power panel. I had originally built this panel with an FM80 for the eventual addition of a small array. I removed the FM80 after about 2 months of problem free operation because the client changed their mind about the solar and wanted to stick with just the generator charging the 12 Surrette KS33 batteries (long boring story). The day after removing the FM80 I received a call from he client saying the mate was turning off and on randomly. When I arrived, the Mate, the Hub, and the FNDC were randomly powering off, then back on after maybe 5 seconds, sometimes once, sometimes many times in a row. I checked everything obvious (wiring, cabling, voltages, etc.) and then replaced various, then all comm cables. This was to be the first of many (I mean many) service calls over the next *10 months* trying to solve the problem. Because the symptom was erratic, it appeared at various times that something I changed made the difference. After an hour or 2 of testing with no repeat of the symptom, I conjured up some rational to explain why my particular fix du jour worked, congratulated myself that I had solved the problem, and went home (which fortunately is only 50 minutes away). An hour, day, week or two later, I would get another call informing me that my fix was insufficient. Each time, I would return with more equipment in hand, over time replacing multiple times the Mate, the Hub, and the FNDC, then all 3 internal VFX boards, checked grounding and wiring for shorts, for surges... I can't remember what. And again each time, I would get the system to settle down, would feel satisfied enough to convince myself to go home, and the cycle would repeat. I had of course included OB support on this journey from the start (which was a bit of a challenge since originally there was no land line, and cell service was a couple miles away - after about 4 months the clients did manage to get the phone company to come through with their land line). OB sent along various replacement parts as we thought new thoughts to experiment with. I think I talked with just about everyone at OB about this issue, and while everyone was fascinated, helpful, and sympathetic, in the end they were not successful at pinpointing the cause. Of everything tried, it turned out that the only reliable action I could take to make the symptom stop would be to unplugged the FNDC comm cable from the hub, although by the time I stumbled across that repeatable experiment, I was so befuddled that it took months for me to realize the consistency and primacy of that behavior. In the end, this was the clue that I used to finally solve the problem (I hope), about a week ago. So last week, after Matt James sent a complete inverter replacement unit under the belief by the engineers that somehow the 22 volt communication power was weak and cutting out upon surges, I replaced the inverter. (Power surges, either charging or loads, seemed associated with the symptom, though not consistently - as well as hitting keys on the Mate.) All seemed well, and I went home, only to get the dreaded call, this time before I even made it home. So I returned the next day with another hub, then replaced the FNDC (again) because it was reporting 2.7 vDC though the inverter was reporting proper voltage, and still got the flashing! I finally surmised (I believe correctly this time) that the flashing happened when there was a large current flow in or out of the batteries. If the batteries were getting charged, the symptom would only appear during the early parts of the charge cycle, unless there was an unusually large load surge as well. And if the system was on edge do to medium size current flows in or out of the batteries, any hitting of Mate buttons seemed to be enough to start the cycling as well. THE CHASE: In a flash of inspiration/desperation, I removed the FNDC's voltage sensing cables (the twisted pair supplied with the FNDC by OB) from the conduit which contains the battery cables and ran them to the DC plus and minus busses in the FW500 instead. I had run the wires directly to the battery terminals on the advise of someone(?) thinking this would provide the most accurate operation. The symptom stopped and has not returned to date. Outback has now determined that somehow this induced current from the battery cables into the voltage sensing wires for the FNDC can cause the communication system to get overwhelmed, but they are not quite sure how. None-the-less, as of this week, they are recommending to run the FNDC voltage sensing wires (plus and minus) *not* along side the inverter cables.
Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V
OutBack has also been working on higher voltage MPPTs as well but we have chosen to not hype unfinished/unreleased new products (i.e. vaporware). Expect to see a new OutBack MPPT controller with many advanced features and new capabilities later this year - including higher input PV voltages. Just don't expect us to talk about it for years before shipping it... There is still the question of the efficiency trade off of higher PV array voltages vs lower voltage PV arrays - but we are sure it will be worthwhile in many installations and we will offer it. We also have been shipping a wind version of the FLEXmax MPPT controller with the A.R.E. turbines for about a year now with very good performance - real installations at real customer sites - not just beta tests - and we are working with Bergey and others now as well. Christopher Freitas OutBack Power Christopher - Original Message - From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thu Mar 26 20:30:38 2009 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Per the posts Midnight solar and Apollo Solar are both in beta testing. Has anyone heard Outback must be also? Is Outback going to announce a HVCC this spring? --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Tump t...@hughes.net wrote: From: Tump t...@hughes.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 8:01 PM I certainly am aware of the things both bob robin, mary crew have made in the industry. THANK YOU MIDNITE! I too am glad that they have some working units out there. I have voiced my frustrations to the Midnite folks knowing robin mary personally I'm certain that my comments will not be taken as insulting. Still I/we've been waiting a long time. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Bryce Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Zzzz? In Midnites defense, I can tell you mine works great! Good products take a long time to make sure that YOU do not end up as the Beta tester. (The most common way for RE gear manufacturers to refine products) It is a double edged sword, we beat the manufactures up for not delivering product. Then stab them if units have problems once released. Just read through the archive. My Beta Classic is rock solid and doing great, it has worked well on my solar arrays and wind turbines for over half a year. No smoke here, it is a real product. On Mar 26, 2009, at 7:06-Mar 26, Tump wrote: Zzzz We've been waiting for a HI voltage CC! A standard unit? Yeah and. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of r...@solar4maine.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:46 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPT greater than 150V Midnites Classic CC is close they are beta testing there high voltage unit. I am actually beta testing there standard voltage unit. boB is working very hard on these and i suspect we will see them soon. There is a long list of features packed into this little unit. I will let boB or Robin fill in all the blanks but we should be going live with all the beta sites on the net soon. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood RD Belt, MT 59412 406-738-4283 www.pineridgeproducts.com www.chinookturbines.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
