Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
All I can say without being too product specific, the larger batteries tend to have larger, thicker positive, and negative plates. Of course a taller plate gives you more surface area on the plate and thus may require more voltage to keep happy. One thing to keep in mind with taller batteries is you tend to run into more stratification issues then the smaller batteries. These higher voltages cause a bit more gassing which helps stir up the electrolyte preventing stratification. I can’t tell you the number of customers that report good voltages, but low SG and you ask them to up their Absorb Voltages and Times a tad bit and the SGs come right into the green. Battery manufactures are cramming larger plates into the chassis of the batteries to get extra cycle life in an attempt to complete with some of the other battery technologies that are popping up here and there. In reality most customers are looking for those magical 5000-10,000 cycles, but don’t really want to pay the required for the proper BMS systems. As we all know, with recent events Boeing did this recently and have learned the hard way with the 787 Dreamliner issues. What I often compare battery based systems to is driving a car down the freeway at 55mph… it takes many small adjustments to accelerator, and steering to keep the car on the road and at that speed, when you start making wide range adjustments to your driving is when you end up all over the road. You can’t just hold the accelerator and steering in the same place and expect to stay on the road. Some of the best advice I can offer, is no two systems are alike because your customers energy usages are usually not alike. Start with the midrange settings that the battery manufacture recommends, use temperature compensation, and adjust the Absorb Voltage, Absorb Time, and even Float Voltage to help control the end users Specific Gravity measurements. If you check your SG and they are in the high range take away .2vdc or 30 mins off the absorb time… if they are low add that .2 or 30 mins, or even bump up the float. For a new, or problem system you should be checking SG every 15-30 days, eventually when you get a handle on how the customer is using the system most people can lengthen the time between their SG checks to 45-90 days.As for Refractometers… I always suggest the EXTECH RF41, usually 80-90 bucks on amazon. Also about Every 4-6 months the SG measurements should be compared to what your SOC meters are reporting, and you should manually adjust the SOC meters according to those SG measurements. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 5:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s You can get a decent battery refractometer now for about $80. We got one and it works fine. Check Amazon. The one we got is an Extech. Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 4:43 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.commailto:will...@millersolar.com wrote: Friends: I make sure I recommend and, if necessary, sell a refractometer to all of my battery customers. I don't leave this to chance. They also get a copy of a white paper I wrote about battery maintenance. WM Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rolls8701fc]http://www.rollsbattery.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O Schultze Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 3:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Steve, Good advice but I'm not at all surprised that most folks don't have a hydrometer. Frankly, unless you are willing to spend a bunch of dough, you aren't going to get one that is worth having. And, they are damn hard to find. The $5 cheapies with the floating balls, etc are just worthless, IMO. Bob-O ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by iConnection E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Eric, I kept this in my inbox for awhile, and finally had to ask - where did you get this information? I have never heard this recommendation - to charge a taller flooded lead acid battery to a higher voltage just because it's taller. I guess I see the apparent logic - more gassing addresses a potential for more stratification of the electrolyte - but if true, why have I never seen this in any battery service guide? What's your source? And has anyone else heard of this? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 7/16/2013 7:53 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Drake, The L16 is quite popular in RE apps...but they typically require a bit higher charge voltage to reach the correct SOC than their shorter counterparts (i.e. T105 golf cart), because they are a taller battery (stands to reason .specific "gravity"). Make sure they are in a vented enclosure if off-gassing will be an issue. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
I would be more inclined to think it's because of a denser plate material in the larger batteries I know surrettes need longer absorbs and I believe a bit higher of a charging voltage to remain happy And I generally run the Trojan L16s Just a bit higher than normal Bob Ellison On Aug 7, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Eric, I kept this in my inbox for awhile, and finally had to ask - where did you get this information? I have never heard this recommendation - to charge a taller flooded lead acid battery to a higher voltage just because it's taller. I guess I see the apparent logic - more gassing addresses a potential for more stratification of the electrolyte - but if true, why have I never seen this in any battery service guide? What's your source? And has anyone else heard of this? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 7/16/2013 7:53 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Drake, The L16 is quite popular in RE apps...but they typically require a bit higher charge voltage to reach the correct SOC than their shorter counterparts (i.e. T105 golf cart), because they are a taller battery (stands to reason .specific gravity). Make sure they are in a vented enclosure if off-gassing will be an issue. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Allen, I am going by experience, not only with my own (4) Workaholic L16s, but when dealing with customers in the field. I would like to get some feedback from other wrenches on this. Maybe it is coincidence, but there seems to be a correlation. Maybe the taller batteries experience sulfation easier? Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Eric, I kept this in my inbox for awhile, and finally had to ask - where did you get this information? I have never heard this recommendation - to charge a taller flooded lead acid battery to a higher voltage just because it's taller. I guess I see the apparent logic - more gassing addresses a potential for more stratification of the electrolyte - but if true, why have I never seen this in any battery service guide? What's your source? And has anyone else heard of this? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 7/16/2013 7:53 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Drake, The L16 is quite popular in RE apps...but they typically require a bit higher charge voltage to reach the correct SOC than their shorter counterparts (i.e. T105 golf cart), because they are a taller battery (stands to reason .specific gravity). Make sure they are in a vented enclosure if off-gassing will be an issue. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Steve, Good advice but I'm not at all surprised that most folks don't have a hydrometer. Frankly, unless you are willing to spend a bunch of dough, you aren't going to get one that is worth having. And, they are damn hard to find. The $5 cheapies with the floating balls, etc are just worthless, IMO. Bob-O On Aug 7, 2013, at 3:11 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: Maybe, I’m overstepping here… but here goes. In most off grid systems you are going to run just a tad bit hotter voltage/time. This is because most of the batteries that are sold into this market were really designed and meant for Industrial applications. The industrial application assumes that you are pretty much charging the battery with a stiff grid sourced current based charger every single night. In most off grid systems the customer is slowly letting the battery fall to a 25% or 50% DOD state of discharge before enabling a fossil fuel source to bring the battery to full state. When these batteries are run at lower state for a period of time they need a bit more voltage to remove the sulfation that has developed on the plates. What I’ve found over the last year is many people are depending on way too small of an array to get any battery bank charged, and of course are very reluctant to use a genset to power an inverter to charge the batteries. This leads to poor SG’s and eventual failure. It also amazes me with how many people don’t even own a hydrometer to check the true state of charge on their battery. Talked with a guy that has his batteries for 5 years and has NEVER taken an SG measurement. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of rollsa5da08.jpeg From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RE Ellison Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 2:29 PM To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s I would be more inclined to think it's because of a denser plate material in the larger batteries I know surrettes need longer absorbs and I believe a bit higher of a charging voltage to remain happy And I generally run the Trojan L16s Just a bit higher than normal Bob Ellison On Aug 7, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Eric, I kept this in my inbox for awhile, and finally had to ask - where did you get this information? I have never heard this recommendation - to charge a taller flooded lead acid battery to a higher voltage just because it's taller. I guess I see the apparent logic - more gassing addresses a potential for more stratification of the electrolyte - but if true, why have I never seen this in any battery service guide? What's your source? And has anyone else heard of this? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 7/16/2013 7:53 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Drake, The L16 is quite popular in RE apps...but they typically require a bit higher charge voltage to reach the correct SOC than their shorter counterparts (i.e. T105 golf cart), because they are a taller battery (stands to reason .specific gravity). Make sure they are in a vented enclosure if off-gassing will be an issue. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by iConnection E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Friends: I make sure I recommend and, if necessary, sell a refractometer to all of my battery customers. I don't leave this to chance. They also get a copy of a white paper I wrote about battery maintenance. WM _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O Schultze Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 3:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Steve, Good advice but I'm not at all surprised that most folks don't have a hydrometer. Frankly, unless you are willing to spend a bunch of dough, you aren't going to get one that is worth having. And, they are damn hard to find. The $5 cheapies with the floating balls, etc are just worthless, IMO. Bob-O ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
You can get a decent battery refractometer now for about $80. We got one and it works fine. Check Amazon. The one we got is an Extech. Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 4:43 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.comwrote: ** Friends: I make sure I recommend and, if necessary, sell a refractometer to all of my battery customers. I don't leave this to chance. They also get a copy of a white paper I wrote about battery maintenance. WM -- *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bob-O Schultze *Sent:* Wednesday, August 07, 2013 3:36 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Steve, Good advice but I'm not at all surprised that most folks don't have a hydrometer. Frankly, unless you are willing to spend a bunch of dough, you aren't going to get one that is worth having. And, they are damn hard to find. The $5 cheapies with the floating balls, etc are just worthless, IMO. Bob-O ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Jay Sorry I should have explained that too... Absorb starts off at around 50% of the available amps and tapers down to around 20% So I divided 20 by 50 = .40 there's a 5% loss factor hence .42 Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Toll Free 888-895-8179 t...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 1:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hi Tom Where did you get the .42 from? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Tom Duffy t...@thesolar.biz wrote: Drake Keep the absorb rate recommended for the CC. The trimetric strays over time and will become accurate again when you overcharge (equalize) The math: Amp hours of battery @ 20 hour rate divided by max charge available in amps, from whatever you using to charge (solar or inverter/charger) Times .42 = absorb time in hours i.e. your system 980 watts, 980 divided by 28.8 (average volts) = 34 amps max charge 370 AH divided by 34 = 10.88 X .42 = 4.57 round up to 4.6 hours absorb time for the CC Your inverter VFX3524 max charge 85 amps... 370 divided by 85 = 4.35 X .42 = 1.82 absorb time for the inverter/charger when running generator Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Toll Free 888-895-8179 t...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hi Larry, I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX. We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem. Thanks, Drake At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote: Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge...it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Tom, Except that absorb starts off at 100% of the available amps, not 50%. Absorb starts as soon as bulk reaches the bulk voltage setpoint. It starts out at the same current as was available in bulk, then ramps back incrementally as the batteries continue to approach full, allowing only as much of the available current to flow to the batteries as is necessary to maintain the voltage setpoint plus loads. On the finishing end, absorb doesn't have much to do with available amps. Rather, it either completes a timed cycle, with no particular control of the available amps except as regulated as above, or it switches to float when the amps necessary to maintain the bulk (a.k.a. absorption) voltage drops below a threshold, typically 2% of bank capacity. And finally, the midpoint between 20 and 50 is 35, not 40. Given that these principles form the basis of your definitive .42 figure, this number sounds pretty arbitrary. Is there anything more you can say by way of explanation? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 7/23/2013 7:57 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: Jay Sorry I should have explained that too... Absorb starts off at around 50% of the available amps and tapers down to around 20% So I divided 20 by 50 = .40 there's a 5% loss factor hence .42 Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Toll Free 888-895-8179 t...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 1:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hi Tom Where did you get the .42 from? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Tom Duffy t...@thesolar.biz wrote: Drake Keep the absorb rate recommended for the CC. The trimetric strays over time and will become accurate again when you overcharge (equalize) The math: Amp hours of battery @ 20 hour rate divided by max charge available in amps, from whatever you using to charge (solar or inverter/charger) Times .42 = absorb time in hours i.e. your system 980 watts, 980 divided by 28.8 (average volts) = 34 amps max charge 370 AH divided by 34 = 10.88 X .42 = 4.57 round up to 4.6 hours absorb time for the CC Your inverter VFX3524 max charge 85 amps... 370 divided by 85 = 4.35 X .42 = 1.82 absorb time for the inverter/charger when running generator Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Toll Free 888-895-8179 t...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hi Larry, I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX. We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem. Thanks, Drake At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote: Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Larry, I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX. We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem. Thanks, Drake At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote: Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Drake Keep the absorb rate recommended for the CC. The trimetric strays over time and will become accurate again when you overcharge (equalize) The math: Amp hours of battery @ 20 hour rate divided by max charge available in amps, from whatever you using to charge (solar or inverter/charger) Times .42 = absorb time in hours i.e. your system 980 watts, 980 divided by 28.8 (average volts) = 34 amps max charge 370 AH divided by 34 = 10.88 X .42 = 4.57 round up to 4.6 hours absorb time for the CC Your inverter VFX3524 max charge 85 amps... 370 divided by 85 = 4.35 X .42 = 1.82 absorb time for the inverter/charger when running generator Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Toll Free 888-895-8179 t...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hi Larry, I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX. We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem. Thanks, Drake At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote: Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge...it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Tom Where did you get the .42 from? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Tom Duffy t...@thesolar.biz wrote: Drake Keep the absorb rate recommended for the CC. The trimetric strays over time and will become accurate again when you overcharge (equalize) The math: Amp hours of battery @ 20 hour rate divided by max charge available in amps, from whatever you using to charge (solar or inverter/charger) Times .42 = absorb time in hours i.e. your system 980 watts, 980 divided by 28.8 (average volts) = 34 amps max charge 370 AH divided by 34 = 10.88 X .42 = 4.57 round up to 4.6 hours absorb time for the CC Your inverter VFX3524 max charge 85 amps... 370 divided by 85 = 4.35 X .42 = 1.82 absorb time for the inverter/charger when running generator Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Toll Free 888-895-8179 t...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hi Larry, I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX. We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem. Thanks, Drake At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote: Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge...it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Drake, When you said, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array, I wondered if you had more of a problem with that system. Glad to hear it's not that way. Absorb time is an issue I have with the design of most charge controllers: They do not measure current to the battery and use that as the source info to determine if a battery is completely full and when to transition into float mode. Blue Sky Energy does this which, in my book, makes it a great charge controller. If you know how much current any battery draws (they are all different and change with age) when it is completely full, then the charge controller can be programmed to stay in absorb until that parameter is met. It could be 1/2 hour one day and 4 hours the next. Many things affect how batteries charge and this is the only true method I know of to accurately determine when it is full each day. For your situation, I would go with Trojans recommendation of 2 hours absorb at 29.6. If you see that this is not fully charging each day, you can try increasing the time or choosing a higher voltage. If you have the sun hours available, I would choose longer charge time. There are many areas in the States that simply do not have enough sun hours to completely charge the battery from PV solar alone. In this case, using higher absorb voltage may be a solution. Larry On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hi Larry, I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX. We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem. Thanks, Drake At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote: Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge…it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Larry and Tom, Thanks for the information. I will boost the voltage and the charge hours for the array. The inverter is good as is. The batteries charge quickly since they are not generally cycled deeply. The cabin is only used for three or four days a week, giving the batteries plenty of time to be maintained. Interestingly, Tom's email never reached me directly. I read it through Jay's reply. Drake At 03:02 PM 7/22/2013, you wrote: Drake, When you said, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array, I wondered if you had more of a problem with that system. Glad to hear it's not that way. Absorb time is an issue I have with the design of most charge controllers: They do not measure current to the battery and use that as the source info to determine if a battery is completely full and when to transition into float mode. Blue Sky Energy does this which, in my book, makes it a great charge controller. If you know how much current any battery draws (they are all different and change with age) when it is completely full, then the charge controller can be programmed to stay in absorb until that parameter is met. It could be 1/2 hour one day and 4 hours the next. Many things affect how batteries charge and this is the only true method I know of to accurately determine when it is full each day. For your situation, I would go with Trojans recommendation of 2 hours absorb at 29.6. If you see that this is not fully charging each day, you can try increasing the time or choosing a higher voltage. If you have the sun hours available, I would choose longer charge time. There are many areas in the States that simply do not have enough sun hours to completely charge the battery from PV solar alone. In this case, using higher absorb voltage may be a solution. Larry On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hi Larry, I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX. We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem. Thanks, Drake At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote: Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Drake, It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true. Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell but it seemed worth mentioning. My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water. One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an airplane without a fuel gauge…it might not end in disaster. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: Tom, The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one cell was dead in one of the batteries. I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to 29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and higher than I'd previously heard recommended. What would be the effect on water consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time? Thanks, Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Are they too inefficient for off grid? Drake At 05:53 PM 7/17/2013, you wrote: for standby (bbgt) systems, please consider wet cell lead calcium cells. i have a 23 year old set still going strong. lead antimony will go 12 years... if you are lucky! todd On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:06pm, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org said: snip They have been a standby for this type of system. If they truly are not lasting as long as previously, what other options do we have for a reasonably priced, decent quality battery in that amp hour range? Thanks, Drake Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
inefficient? they are better then lead antimony, but are considered 'shallow cycle', so i never take them down more than 50%. todd On Thursday, July 18, 2013 5:44am, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org said: Are they too inefficient for off grid? Drake At 05:53 PM 7/17/2013, you wrote: for standby (bbgt) systems, please consider wet cell lead calcium cells. i have a 23 year old set still going strong. lead antimony will go 12 years... if you are lucky! todd On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:06pm, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org said: snip They have been a standby for this type of system. If they truly are not lasting as long as previously, what other options do we have for a reasonably priced, decent quality battery in that amp hour range? Thanks, Drake Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/] www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Todd Where can we find info and pricing? Thanks Jay Peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Tom, These are Trojan L-16E batteries, 370 AH. They have a 2 hour absorb cycle at around 29.3 V. There is one series string of 4 batteries in a small, off grid cabin that is used 3 or 4 days a week. The system has 980 Watts of PV with an Outback FM 60 CC and an Outback 3524 VFX inverter. I was concerned to read that John and Bob have been seeing more problems with the Trojan L-16s lately. They have been a standby for this type of system. If they truly are not lasting as long as previously, what other options do we have for a reasonably priced, decent quality battery in that amp hour range? Thanks, Drake At 09:54 AM 7/16/2013, you wrote: Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=_004_66ba8ba32edb46a18046d46a3a83c95cBLUPR05MB165namprd05pro_; type=multipart/alternative Hi Drake The first thing I would look at is how the batteries are being charged Can they even be charged by the present equipment? What is the Bulk/Absorb voltage and time? Equally important is the design of the bank series or series/parallel and if parallel how many strings. Lastly which Trojan L-16 are these? Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer Real-logo-X-195 Toll Free 888-895-8179 mailto:t...@thesolar.bizt...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:59 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hello Wrenches, A 1 1/2 year old bank of Trojan L-16s had a battery with a dead cell. I have heard that there have been some complaints about the L-16s lately. Has anyone had experiences with Trojan L-16s (or the RE series), good or bad? Are they still a good choice to use in off grid systems? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org inline: 1d82573.png___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
for standby (bbgt) systems, please consider wet cell lead calcium cells. i have a 23 year old set still going strong. lead antimony will go 12 years... if you are lucky! todd On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:06pm, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org said: snip They have been a standby for this type of system. If they truly are not lasting as long as previously, what other options do we have for a reasonably priced, decent quality battery in that amp hour range? Thanks, Drake Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Drake The first thing I would look at is how the batteries are being charged... Can they even be charged by the present equipment? What is the Bulk/Absorb voltage and time? Equally important is the design of the bank... series or series/parallel and if parallel how many strings. Lastly which Trojan L-16 are these? Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Real-logo-X-195] Toll Free 888-895-8179 t...@thesolar.bizmailto:t...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:59 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hello Wrenches, A 1 1/2 year old bank of Trojan L-16s had a battery with a dead cell. I have heard that there have been some complaints about the L-16s lately. Has anyone had experiences with Trojan L-16s (or the RE series), good or bad? Are they still a good choice to use in off grid systems? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ inline: image002.png___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hello Wrenches, A 1 1/2 year old bank of Trojan L-16s had a battery with a dead cell. I have heard that there have been some complaints about the L-16s lately. Has anyone had experiences with Trojan L-16s (or the RE series), good or bad? Are they still a good choice to use in off grid systems? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
