Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan
Brownstein
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 4:47 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
A relatively brief response that does not do justice
In a message dated 11/21/2005 6:28:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Many of
the church-planting initiatives involve using the school the entire weekend,
or at least almost all of Sunday.
In 1992, at Garfield Elementary School, a church planting initiative here
Brownstein
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 11:09 AM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
I'm not sure I can add much
: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
Good question. I think Justice White had it right in Texas Monthly.
Books and periodicals offered for sale should be construed to be speech
for speech or press clause purposes. But that doesn't mean that all
exercises of religon that involve expression
I guess I don't understand the difference between "speech on a religious topic" and a "religious service." The "services" I attend most Sundays involve announcements (speech about upcoming events), singing (praise and worship songs), and a sermon (i.e. alecture). The only difference between a
Why would a Rotary Club in Nebraska sing "Yellow Rose of Texas?"
That song is considered part of the Texas religion down here, by the way.
More seriously, Mr. Duncan points from the other side to a solution that I think is often available for religious speakers in secular settings. There are
Alan Brownstein writes:
My answer to Eugene's question would probably depend on what
makes the religious sermon in his hypothetical a sermon. If
the only reason he characterizes something as a sermon is
that it is a speech on a religious topic, I would view this
as a speech clause issue.
s Laycock University of Texas Law School 727 E. Dean Keeton St. Austin, TX 78705 512-232-1341 (phone) 512-471-6988 (fax)From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Monday, November 21, 2005 12:02 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject:
Isn't the key question whether the public schools rent to groups 52
weeks/year for long periods of time? Many of the church-planting
initiatives involve using the school the entire weekend, or at least almost all
of Sunday. The use here looks a lot more intense than any other group that
I
Some districts here in Texas have looked on these arrangements as good money makers. The churches pay reasonable rent, plus fees to cover the overtime for custodial people and other building management; many of the hourly workers involved are happy for the hours and extra money. Contracts, or
:45 AM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
Alan Brownstein writes:
My answer to Eugene's question would probably depend on what
makes the religious sermon in his hypothetical a sermon. If
the only reason he characterizes
News Club just
makes the problem a lot more difficult.
Alan Brownstein
UC Davis
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Volokh, Eugene
Sent: Fri 11/18/2005 2:09 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
. Good News Club just makes the
problem a lot more difficult.
Alan Brownstein
UC Davis
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Volokh, Eugene
Sent: Fri 11/18/2005 2:09 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
Given Texas Monthly v
In a message dated 11/19/2005 4:19:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't
think that "all exercisesof religion that involve _expression_ should be
construed to be speech forspeech clause purposes *rather than* religion
for religion clausepurposes" -- I think
New York argued in Good News that Lamb's Chapel involved (to put the
point in its most nearly coherent form) speech on a secular topic from a
religious perspective, but Good News involved speech that was purely
religious and akin to worship. I assume they were running the same
argument in Bronx
Ed,
As to the summary judgment issue, that is not unusual. A summary
judgment can be granted when there are no disputes over the material
facts applicable to the case, so the court doesn't need a trial to
determine contested factual issues, it simply needs to apply the law to
the agreed upon
Douglas Laycock wrote:
New York argued in Good News that Lamb's Chapel involved (to put the
point in its most nearly coherent form) speech on a secular topic from a
religious perspective, but Good News involved speech that was purely
religious and akin to worship. I assume they were running
Gene Summerlin wrote:
Ed,
As to the summary judgment issue, that is not unusual. A summary
judgment can be granted when there are no disputes over the material
facts applicable to the case, so the court doesn't need a trial to
determine contested factual issues, it simply needs to apply the
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
Gene Summerlin wrote:
Ed,
As to the summary judgment issue, that is not unusual. A summary
judgment can be granted when there are no disputes over the material
facts applicable to the case, so
Academics
Subject: RE: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
Ed,
From a procedural standpoint, I'm not surprised that the court granted
summary judgment. From a substantive standpoint, like you, I'm
surprised that the summary judgment was granted in favor of the
defendants rather than
Scarberry, Mark wrote:
But again, if there are no disputed facts, the court simply decides what
outcome is required by the law and then grants summary judgment. Disputes as
to application of law to the facts do not make summary judgment
inappropriate. It's the court's job to apply the law to
I'm not at all surprised at the result. There is a huge difference
between a student after-school club alongside othersecular clubsand
a church taking over a school building for most of a weekend solely for
religious purposes, including full-scale worship. The equality rationale
has really
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not at all surprised at the result. There is a huge
difference between a student after-school club alongside othersecular
clubsand a church taking over a school building for most of a weekend
solely for religious purposes, including full-scale
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Ed Brayton
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005
12:47 PM
To: Law
Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Bronx
Household of Faith v New York Schools
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I'm not at all surprised at the
result
Given Texas Monthly v. Bullock, would treating worship services more
favorably than civic club meetings even be constitutional? If the
government can't prefer religious publications over secular
publications, why can it prefer religious meetings over secular
meetings?
Eugene
Alan
Title: Re: Bronx Household of Faith v New York Schools
If the government is making a building available for rent, why cant a church rent it for the same time and the same price as a secular renter? There is no state action in favor of any religion. The rental should not violate the EC. Except
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